If you look at what they are saying, it is clear that they have long known the debt is not sustainable and it is about cruelty and punishment. They are lying and pretending otherwise but not even doing that all of the time, sometimes the punishment and cruelty viewpoint shines through. And this applies also to some people who post in this thread, I don't believe they are honest. Or rather it is easy to see what their priorities are, even if they weakly pretend otherwise.
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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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If you look at what they are saying, it is clear that they have long known the debt is not sustainable and it is about cruelty and punishment. They are lying and pretending otherwise but not even doing that all of the time, sometimes the punishment and cruelty viewpoint shines through. And this applies also to some people who post in this thread, I don't believe they are honest. Or rather it is easy to see what their priorities are, even if they weakly pretend otherwise.
It's about beating up one team member so badly that the rest are forever too scared to oppose your will and leadership.
CyclopsRock
Member
Call me a macro-fiat clown, but the majority of the money Greece owes publicly is to Eurozone members right? Some European banks are leveraged over there and don't want to see it go belly up, the IMF isn't in the Eurozone and there are private bond holders, but *most* of their huge pile of debt is to Merkel and co, right?
So, of Greece found a door to burning building and bailed the fuck out, those loans would default and those Euros effectively cease to exist, no? The EZ members are never getting them back and the Neo-Varoufakis-Republic now uses the neo-Drachma. Right?
So, uhhh, couldn't the ECB pay back those EZ loans with freshly minted 2 euro coins (the best) with little or no inflationary result? All the Euros in Greece would have disappeared, but then so would the value of assets they represented. In "total Euros":" Assets" ratio, it would be as if Greece defaulted and exited the EZ back in 2009 with no loans.
Come on guys (ie Crab), clown me.
So, of Greece found a door to burning building and bailed the fuck out, those loans would default and those Euros effectively cease to exist, no? The EZ members are never getting them back and the Neo-Varoufakis-Republic now uses the neo-Drachma. Right?
So, uhhh, couldn't the ECB pay back those EZ loans with freshly minted 2 euro coins (the best) with little or no inflationary result? All the Euros in Greece would have disappeared, but then so would the value of assets they represented. In "total Euros":" Assets" ratio, it would be as if Greece defaulted and exited the EZ back in 2009 with no loans.
Come on guys (ie Crab), clown me.
Machspeed007
Member
Well, Greece got a debt relief in 2010-2012 already, however it did not seriously get after corruption and tax evasion either. You say that fighting tax evasion will not help, but do you know how large the tax evasion is?
I agree that the debt must be reduced further but this should not be used as an excuse for not implementing proper reforms like they did up until now.
During 2012, there was a haircut of private holders of Greek bonds. Which affected private holders, mostly Greeks, Greek banks, pension funds and Cypriot banks. This actually fucked up the Greek banking system which got loaned ELA from the ECB (so a replacement of loaning) more than it helped. Especially in combination with bank run in fear of a default. The haircut also fucked up majorly the banking system of Cyprus. It also fucked even more the pension system of Greece.
You are missing the point, the austerity policies leave no room for Greece to leave this crisis.
As for proper reforms targeting tax evasion, even previous Greek governments during the last five years passed laws. Some of the problems run deeper and have something to do with number of self employed and more professions that worldwide tax evade more which Greece has in higher percentage than other countries. Others have to do with institutional weakness and corruption and yes to some extend some cultural attitudes. The austerity policies reducing the tax administration workers in most of eurozone have hardly helped the situation and in fact might have made it worse (part of reforms you so praise). And might had made things worse in other countries as well. As well as the worsening of the economic conditions, in part due to austerity policies, which made black market sales of cigaretes more lucrative as well for one example, and gave employers stronger bargaining position and employees more desperate for black market work without papers. You are pushing the reforms mantra to not admit the problem of the austerity policies. Now, having conditions of correct reforms to be implemented as part of deals is something else. That makes sense. That would mean that in it, we wouldn't find horrible austerity policies but reforms that are about targeting tax evasion for example. Which even the current goverment mentioned some.
If one cares for proper reforms, one must look at the bad reforms they are proposing and their results and propose truly proper reforms, and not reforms that actually make the problems worse. And if Greece needs to follow proper reforms, then that isn't compatible with following a lot of the nonsense of this program, like the 50 billion privatization fund.
Theonik
Member
Do you? Before the bailouts?
Theonik
Member
More like they were curbstomped.
Machspeed007
Member
How about introducing card-only payments like in Sweden? Would you agree with that?
Welcome to Sweden - the most cash-free society on the planet
Theonik
Member
Since when was this part of the proposed reforms. Ignoring that it would take a huge change in payment culture. It isn't something you can easily push from the top.
Varoufakis mentioned that idea of electronic money as a way to combat tax evasion. I also thought of it as a nice idea then.
But I don't really know how it can be implemented and the consequences of trying to do that. But certainly should be something that various people involved with thinking of reforms should think about and try to envision how it would work. Maybe its part of the solution.
Yes you can, for the next 5 years the banks could make sure only 100 euros could be taken cash every month. Went to the dentist? Great pay with your ATM card.
This is an utterly stupid idea that would utterly crush the economy. 100 euros only for each month, for five years is way too little money for the economy to operate. The fact that you don't realize how ridiculous and the implications to what you are saying is astounding. Even on a micro scale, imagine what it would mean to an employee of any employer. It makes me wonder if you are a teenager or something.
Now, more use of plastic money might help things, but that shouldn't be done with these kind of unbelievably and way utterly idiotic capital controls.
Machspeed007
Member
Huge debt would require huge changes. However, this would be preferable to tax hikes or pension cuts, isn't it? As long as there are options on the table, 'austerity' could be interpreted in different ways.
Theonik
Member
Not to mention the cost of changing infrastructure to accommodate it.
It's called paying your taxes, if you won't do it then it should be enforced one way or the other.
Machspeed007
Member
I'm sure EU will help with that if there's a will.
Machspeed007
Member
Wages are payed through bank accounts so that wouldn't be a problem.
Sounds fine that. Who's going to enforce it? A reformed Greek tax office maybe? Who's going to pay for that though?
The fuck.
How does taking 100 euros max each month = paying your taxes. There is no economy on earth that can force such stupidity for five years, ever.
Greeks pay taxes. Even with tax evasion. In fact the tax increases have put quite a high burden on many Greeks.
Your proposal would utterly crush completely the tax income of Greece and its economy. One of the most ignorant suggestions on the Greek economy I have seen.
How can the wage be paid if as an employee you can't take that money?
You know what helps against tax evasion? Reducing taxes (to make the risk less worthy) and have a competent tax authority.
Any kind of capital control measures while might help, might have quite nasty side effects, like reducing consumption.
For an electronic only currency, you need a very good communication infrastructure, so more money.
In the end the most important is the will and hiring honest people as tax inspectors. And of course playing them well.
Any kind of capital control measures while might help, might have quite nasty side effects, like reducing consumption.
For an electronic only currency, you need a very good communication infrastructure, so more money.
In the end the most important is the will and hiring honest people as tax inspectors. And of course playing them well.
Keep with with the insults, salty much?
I was referring to most European countries where pretty much everything is paid with bank cards, pretty much most of the people do not use cash anymore. The 100 euros a month was meant as cash to carry around for small things and use your bankcard to pay for other things. Makes it easy to collect taxes on things you by or other services so the government could collect tax.
Why do they need to take cash? You can pay for all your bills online through your bank account, preventing corrupt officials at the tax office from taking cash away.
Keep up with your insults, shows who the child here is.
KarneeKarnay
Member
There is an argument in the UK that a way to deal with debt is to keep spending, not retracting. When a body as big as a nation gets into trillions of debt, then the best thing to do is to keep spending.
Invest heavily into infrastructure and usually unemployment will drop and income will rise. Invest heavily into banks and the money stays exactly where you left it.
This can be applied to any heavily debted country. That said the situation in Greece requires more than just a blank template plan to deal with. Greece has one of the worst - if not the worst - payment rates on taxes. Less than 50% of the population pays tax and I know the knee jerk reaction is to go after the corporations, but they really are only a drop in the ocean compared to the income of the entire working populace of a country.
I think the agreement signed will not work. Because it doesn't really tackle this problem, instead it just makes Greece and administrative nightmare. The EU should have demanded this instead.
1. A complete overhaul of the Greek Tax commission. To be paid for and supervised by the EU. This will be a huge commitment, but if this were done Greece could be out of Debt within 10 years or at the very least within reason.
2. If the Greek Government can no longer afford to provide the basic services, such as schools/hospitals/maintenance, then EU should take up the funding, with an agreement to transfer funding gradually back to Greece, once they reach financial objectives.
3. Invest in Infrastructure. It's time to bring jobs to Greece. Offer incentives to international corporations to start building projects in Greece. Hell if you really wanted to add more confidence to the Markets, build a train line from Germany to Greece. Plus diplomatically it would be seen as the Germans putting their money where their mouth is and help repair some of the relations between Greece and Germany
Just stop giving the Greece Government Money. They haven't got their house in order and I don't think they can sort it out without help.
Invest heavily into infrastructure and usually unemployment will drop and income will rise. Invest heavily into banks and the money stays exactly where you left it.
This can be applied to any heavily debted country. That said the situation in Greece requires more than just a blank template plan to deal with. Greece has one of the worst - if not the worst - payment rates on taxes. Less than 50% of the population pays tax and I know the knee jerk reaction is to go after the corporations, but they really are only a drop in the ocean compared to the income of the entire working populace of a country.
I think the agreement signed will not work. Because it doesn't really tackle this problem, instead it just makes Greece and administrative nightmare. The EU should have demanded this instead.
1. A complete overhaul of the Greek Tax commission. To be paid for and supervised by the EU. This will be a huge commitment, but if this were done Greece could be out of Debt within 10 years or at the very least within reason.
2. If the Greek Government can no longer afford to provide the basic services, such as schools/hospitals/maintenance, then EU should take up the funding, with an agreement to transfer funding gradually back to Greece, once they reach financial objectives.
3. Invest in Infrastructure. It's time to bring jobs to Greece. Offer incentives to international corporations to start building projects in Greece. Hell if you really wanted to add more confidence to the Markets, build a train line from Germany to Greece. Plus diplomatically it would be seen as the Germans putting their money where their mouth is and help repair some of the relations between Greece and Germany
Just stop giving the Greece Government Money. They haven't got their house in order and I don't think they can sort it out without help.
Machspeed007
Member
You have the money on the card, you pay with the card.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
A cashless economy might be a good thing at a future stage, but Greece isn't Sweden and doesn't have the technological infrastucture to actually implement it yet. To get a cashless economy to work you need electronic payments to be at around 350 payments per person in a financial year (e.g. Finland 451, Sweden 375 and Denmark 339). Greece is on 18. Not 180, 18. If you switched to cashless in Greece now, for an awful lot of the Greek population that just means money-less full stop, which I hope we can all agree is an atrocious idea.
Machspeed007
Member
As I said, Sweden has lower taxes but is mostly a cashless country.
So yes, you can have both easily if you want.
Machspeed007
Member
So this is where EU steps in with providing funding to put in place a proper system. Would the greek politicians fight for this idea? They could sell it to the electorate as a means to avoid cutting pensions and public wages (which is true to an extent).
18 payments a year just means that the rest of 400 are not traceable by the government and do not bring in any taxes. Puts things into perspective, isn't it? (OK, not all transactions are taxable but regardless of that, it's still an eye opener).
If you don't build the necessary infrastructure first, this won't work. And 100 cash limit each month is still too small. You are telling people who can't adjust to this system to get fucked.
However there is some potential in the idea of pushing for card payment. But not like this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You've not been paying attention, have you?
even most serious or low estimations assume that Greece is missing around 30 billion each year to tax evasion.
It's a sad story that Greece is and was actually always a healthy country but that they can't deal with their corruption and tax evasion yet because otherwise all problems would vanish immediately.
PdotMichael
Banned
high tax evasion means high tax burden to the few people who pay taxes.
So the general public should be interested in an effective tax system because it effectively reduces taxes.
So the general public should be interested in an effective tax system because it effectively reduces taxes.
Glad we agree on something without the insults. But at some point getting Greeks to overhaul their tax system would only benefit them in the long. As of now i really have no idea what's going to happen with all these stupid rules imposed on them by the rest of the EU.
Tax evasion and corruption are serious problem, though I disagree that all problems would vanish immediately with those being dealt with, to the extend that any country facing such problems can deal with them. If Greece did deal with them in the past, it certainly wouldn't be here today. But now there are additional problems as well.
But reducing corruption and tax evasion would highly improve the situation, certainly.
It isn't really a secret how to reduce tax evasion. Though it won't necessarily solve all of the problem. Hire more tax workers (instead or reducing their number). Target and check more taxpayers and increase fines and punishments and enforce them. And check deposits and who has more than they should. Additionally, reducing the tax burden on the poorer and middle class would help as well. Plastic money has its role but you can't expect people to work with just that, if you push in that direction it would be a slow adjustment and just going with super strict capital controls would crash the economy. In Greece case, there might be also a problem with centralization of the state in Athens, an Athens centric country that might not allow enough regulation in the islands. For that I am less sure how to handle in comparison to other problems, it might require more infrastructure to be build on the islands and more oversight from the goverment.
Machspeed007
Member
I am paying attention of course. Greece has just been granted 80 billions. If you think that the EU can't spare 100 million to implement a system like this, I don't know what else to tell you (think about it, 100 million to gain at least 1 billion from tax evasion, each year). Btw, not all the 80 billions are used to repay interest rates.
Theonik
Member
I'd like to see your numbers where most other European countries are ready to go cashless, but Greece definitely isn't. Sadly.
Show me that EU initiative then we will talk. You clearly haven't been paying attention.
And no, it means that there are hundreads of transactions per person where there is no direct supervision but that doesn't mean there is no tax revenue from them at all. You don't need to be authoritarian to have a functioning society.
Greece also has a protected industry making it difficult for competition from the outside.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well, if most of the general public aren't paying taxes, why would they care how high taxes are?
Theonik
Member
I don't see how targeting taxi drivers rectifies the greater problem. The so called protected industries aren't really interesting in making the Greek economy more competitive overall.
Machspeed007
Member
Well now, I thought that Greece is an independent nation that doesn't submit to EU oppressors. How about some Greek initiative? Why does the EU have to always tell Greece what to do to improve things for its own people just to be name-called afterwards?
The EU can certainly help but don't throw the 'we are loosing sovereignty to German influence' crap back at us.
I agree with this but these are exceptional times. Tax evasion isn't a temporary fluke with Greece, it's a historical tradition (the problem isn't Greek related only to be fair, other countries have this issue and try to combat it).
Theonik
Member
Because you are saying the EU is going to finance this project and deal with the massive costs involved. The Greeks certainly cannot or are we ignoring the fact they've been bankrupt since 2010 again.
Are we also pretending they have been completely free to implement reforms as they saw fit? Well with this new MoU they have less power than ever.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This would cost a lot more than $100 million. You're talking about taking a country with close to no proper infrastructure and the worst rate of electronic payment in the European Union to what would effectively be an electronic payment leader, ahead (proportionately) of countries like Germany and France.
Machspeed007
Member
This is a massive national enterprise indeed, kind of like sending the man to the Moon for the Americans. But it could set a national goal, a scope to unify behind in order to fix things.
It is something that gets people involved in the process of reforming the country, it's not something outlandish only politicians know of. And could really help with the money problem.
What else do you have to do? Doing nothing and crying how everything is hopeless?
Machspeed007, no offense, but you have no idea how reality is outside your bubble. From what you say it's clear that you have no idea how life is in other countries in Europe (outside the western/northern ones). Also you have no idea how electronic payments function, obviously, and what kind of infrastructure you need for an electronic payments only economy. No, using the POS at the store and making online shopping doesn't cover all the knowledge.
Of course you can state your opinion on the matter even without knowledge, as we all do this on one topic or another, but one should also know when one is over one's head in a matter.
Of course you can state your opinion on the matter even without knowledge, as we all do this on one topic or another, but one should also know when one is over one's head in a matter.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
So, I do think it would be a useful long-term project for Greece (any country, in fact). However, I also think that it would cost more money than the European Union is willing to give Greece, and that it would take such a long time to implement that the Greek state probably wouldn't receive returns on its investment for at least a decade or possibly even more, meaning it doesn't actually help Greece with the more pressing aspect of its debt problems. I also think you're overestimating the extent to which it enthuses people. "Send a man to the moon" is a little more romantic than "Make debit cards universal".
Ultimately, it's a nice thing to focus on but it is at a low priority at best to the stuff that actually needs doing.
regarding tax evasion:
usually banks never give a loan that would cause a re-payment / income ratio that is above 0.3. A 0.5 would mean that one has to use half of his income to repay a loan. Everything above the mentioned 0.3 causes an incredibly high delinquency rate and would basically means a full loss for the loan of the bank.
But accounting and financial services employees somehow have a payment / income rate of 1.15, in other words: they pay back more for their loan that they earn each month but the deliquency rate is very low which is not possible.
The reason for such illegitimate statistics is that the banks actually use formulas to calculate the real (and not the reported) income of those occupational groups. You might want to do some math what the real income of a doctor or accounting employee has to be so that they reach the 0.3 re-payment / income quota. Even the bank system is helping to maintain the general tax evasion in greece.
usually banks never give a loan that would cause a re-payment / income ratio that is above 0.3. A 0.5 would mean that one has to use half of his income to repay a loan. Everything above the mentioned 0.3 causes an incredibly high delinquency rate and would basically means a full loss for the loan of the bank.
But accounting and financial services employees somehow have a payment / income rate of 1.15, in other words: they pay back more for their loan that they earn each month but the deliquency rate is very low which is not possible.
The reason for such illegitimate statistics is that the banks actually use formulas to calculate the real (and not the reported) income of those occupational groups. You might want to do some math what the real income of a doctor or accounting employee has to be so that they reach the 0.3 re-payment / income quota. Even the bank system is helping to maintain the general tax evasion in greece.
Machspeed007
Member
I've been to Greece, in fact I'm living close by, in a country that has its own problems with tax evasion.
A POS needs only a GPRS connection and I had that in every place I've got in Greece. It's not rocket science.
regarding tax evasion:
usually banks never give a loan that would cause a re-payment / income ratio that is above 0.3. A 0.5 would mean that one has to use half of his income to repay a loan. Everything above the mentioned 0.3 causes an incredibly high delinquency rate and would basically means a full loss for the loan of the bank.
But accounting and financial services employees somehow have a payment / income rate of 1.15, in other words: they pay back more for their loan that they earn each month but the deliquency rate is very low which is not possible.
The reason for such illegitimate statistics is that the banks actually use formulas to calculate the real (and not the reported) income of those occupational groups. You might want to do some math what the real income of a doctor or accounting employee has to be so that they reach the 0.3 re-payment / income quota. Even the bank system is helping to maintain the general tax evasion in greece.
A bank still needs documents to support the income calculation. And generally you need official documents for that. So either we talk about double counting, which is like the most risky tax evasion ever, because you leave traces or maybe the income have dropped that much since the loans were given.
This country of yours has electronic payments only? Or even mostly electronic payments?
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