Coriolanus
Banned
translate the juicy ones, m8
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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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translate the juicy ones, m8
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's sort of an unfair comparison. English changed radically by the standards of most languages because for most of its history, it wasn't a prestige language nor a literary language. Every time a new set of conquerors arrived in England, from the Danes to the Normans, they had a heavy influence on the language. This wasn't the case for Greek, which was a prestige language and literary language that changed only very slightly after the establishment of koine Greek.
A fairer comparison would have been asking an Italian person to try reading a vulgar Latin from the 4th century. They'd probably be able to have a fair stab at it.
In fairrness, English was conquered by like three different varieties of people in the last 1200 years, all speaking languages that weren't just different, but different in origin (Teutonic, Nordic, French, to say nothing of the Celts). Greece has been transitioning smoothly from imperial rule to imperial rule basically since there was civilization in Greece, and most of the regimes were happy to speak Greek as long as they were ruling Greece.
edit: Crab is always faster than me.
On average more civil than I expected, to be honest.
First two:
It's better to make a painful break than draw out the agony. Since we won't see the millions and billions we gave Greece again anyway, the debts need to be canceled. I feel sorry only for the [Greek] people.
This Greek government, and their predecessors too, have been unable to accept our help. Instead they vilify and insult us. We feel sorry for the simple people [in Greece].
The juicer ones are grilling Merkel for spending tax payer money for a "corrupt government" and for not giving a shit about the not-so-rich people at home paying the taxes.
You should really use quotationmarks
Arguably the juciest ones:
Greece should go back to the Drachme. Then the rich Greeks [as in 'those Greeks who are rich', and not 'all Greeks are rich'] would not thrive anymore.
After five years of financial support, Greece should try herself to get back on her feet. What is not ok is to be insolent and only make demands.
Theonik
Member
Then they blame Greece for tax evasion!
Kammenos voted yes.
Coriolanus
Banned
If someone were to tell me that Kammenos would break with syriza before Varou a coupla months back, i'd say they were delusional. And yet here we are.
Then agan, if someone told me on new year's eve that i'd be mad following all of this drama for months on end, i'd have done the same.
Then agan, if someone told me on new year's eve that i'd be mad following all of this drama for months on end, i'd have done the same.
Negotiator
Member
Nope. Ancient Greek is more like German.
Theonik
Member
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Based Varoufakis.
CyclopsRock
Member
They just finished a meal, IIRC.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The rebellion is larger than expected, but the motion passes.
Coriolanus
Banned
#teamtruefinns
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
it's not FIN til the 20th - although it may be Finn.
CyclopsRock
Member
I strongly suspect it'll get renewed for another season.
It's just like those Turkish telenovelas on Greek TV. One ends and bam the next one airs the next day. And all are basically the same and why do all people in those shows own iPhones?
This season might not be over if the IMF decides to jump off this doomed ship
If they really block this, the Eurozone would just declare the current situation an emergency and bypass them, right?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If they have time. The 85% would have to go and vote again.
Coriolanus
Banned
Wasnt that only if they went with ESM funding?
hydrophilic attack
Member
The Left Platform should form a Grexit party together with based Varoufakis.
Ether_Snake
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He's not so Grexit as he is debt and union reform. I think he would only run for PM after Grexit becomes the go to mandate, but we are still far from this. It's more likely as things stand that Greece will stay in. Germany wants Greece out because the longer they stay in the bigger the stakes will be in the favor of the south.
If things go south (pun intended) while Greece is still in, let's say in Italy or Spain or Portgual, you can imagine that pressure will increase for debt and reform. If Greece is already out by then, that country will be alone in pushing for reform. The more the merrier.
That's why Germany is pushing for Grexit.
Haven't pretty much all his public statements been anti-Grexit?
Napalm_Frank
Member
Yes, and they will not block it.
hydrophilic attack
Member
But he voted no tonight. The alternative to agreeing to the deal is Grexit.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I think he dislikes the politics (as opposed to policy) too much to run for prime minister. But he could take on a role as finance minister or some kind of senior advisory role in an anti-austerity party formed from the Left Platform. (By necessity any such party would have to be pro-Grexit.)
I really hope the Euro doesn't exist soon. Millstone around the neck of every country that isn't one of the big economies and is giving the entire European project a death by a thousand cuts.
Probably going to vote to leave EU if Cameron gets a employment legislation opt out like he's planning for his donors. Greece being strangled has left a terrible taste in my mouth and no EU employment legislation means the main benefit for me no longer exists.
Probably going to vote to leave EU if Cameron gets a employment legislation opt out like he's planning for his donors. Greece being strangled has left a terrible taste in my mouth and no EU employment legislation means the main benefit for me no longer exists.
Coriolanus
Banned
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Seems like it passed at parliament:
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKBN0P40EO20150715
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKBN0P40EO20150715
I'm not well versed in economics, but it seems to me that the euro, as implemented, was a mistake. They should have either gone all out and made the European Union a full, new sovereign state to succeed all the current member states, or they should have all kept their own currencies and institutions. Of course, even in the latter case, the EU could have still existed as a free trade bloc and weaker intergovernmental organization, like a mini-UN but just for Europe.
In any case, as it stands now, it looks like things are going to get worse before they get better, and the path to getting better seems like it will start with Greece leaving the euro. As painful as that'll be, it probably won't be as painful as what they're going through right now.
It's a very unfortunate situation overall.
EDIT: And the alternative to a Grexit would be that fully integrated new form of the EU that completely replaces all the current member states as one single sovereign state, but I'm not so sure that will happen.
In any case, as it stands now, it looks like things are going to get worse before they get better, and the path to getting better seems like it will start with Greece leaving the euro. As painful as that'll be, it probably won't be as painful as what they're going through right now.
It's a very unfortunate situation overall.
EDIT: And the alternative to a Grexit would be that fully integrated new form of the EU that completely replaces all the current member states as one single sovereign state, but I'm not so sure that will happen.
hydrophilic attack
Member
It's nothing but trash.
shinra-bansho
Member
The impact of fiscal policy on the Greek economy is one thing, and this deal seems rather bad.
But it's also relatively disingenuous to suggest that the Syriza administration of the last 7 months, culminating in capital controls, hasn't been a disaster for the situation as well, with essentially no gain whatsoever for the Greek people given how lopsided the deal is.
EDIT: And yes, I am aware that the Greek political system in general is broken and full of corruption.
But it's also relatively disingenuous to suggest that the Syriza administration of the last 7 months, culminating in capital controls, hasn't been a disaster for the situation as well, with essentially no gain whatsoever for the Greek people given how lopsided the deal is.
EDIT: And yes, I am aware that the Greek political system in general is broken and full of corruption.
Ether_Snake
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I disagree that the Euro has to end, I just think it would work better as a currency for the north, or the south, but not both at once. I think a common currency between Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, and Greece, would be quite fine. Even without France it would be fine too, maybe even better, I'm not well versed on France's economy.
But basically, unions work well when there are common problems to solve together. The south would do well in such a union, but a union as it exists causes imbalances and exploitation.
Down the road, I think it's inevitable that this reality will become obvious to all, and it wouldn't be hearsay to hear about establishing a new union, be it with a common currency or not, but one for the south or the north, not everyone in. There's very little incentive for the north to unite with one another though, so one for the south is more likely.
Of course to get debt, we'll need debt cuts, you can't have a union of bankrupted countries. But that will be resolved down the line anyway because that's the only direction the current crisis can go anyway, since the union is implicitly exploitative.
It's good ol Marx-was-right, it's the same story as usual. This union is classic capitalism, not a union of nations trying to work together. So "revolution", or in this case writing off the debt and breaking the union, is inevitable.
I don't think Greece's situation would be all that much better with a more 'mainstream' party. Greece was fucked before Syriza and are still fucked. Syriza certainly fucked Greece more by making it seem like they might Grexit, but then completely caved when the chips were down. Still, no matter what party was in power, the Greek debt would still be unsustainable and the Troika would still have demanded more austerity. The only difference that might have taken place were that a mainstream party might not have had those bank runs.
Machspeed007
Member
Oohh, so Greek parliament voted to stay in spite of those pesky Germans? 11th dimensional chess indeed.
Actually, you know what will truly wreck Merkel's morning coffee? Not implementing any pension and social reforms, not fighting the corruption and tax evasion. Take THAT Germany!
You honestly think that Greece can pay back its debts if they institute all those reforms?
Was that even the point? I'm beginning to wonder at this point.
Greece should implement correct pension, social reforms and fight corruption and tax evasion regardless of Germany or not.
The problem was and is the austerity measures and surplus targets. That fuck over the well being of the Greek people, the GDP, economy (and bussiness) and income, and are partly responsible for the huge Debt to GDP ratio. It's a death spiral that Greece can't get out of. Without growth, Greece no matter how much austerity it takes, it will not be able to handle the debt or do better. In fact with absurd surplus targets and absurdly large austerity policies it is guaranteed to do awful on both issues. While you will be repeating the same arguments about culture or lack of reforms in some time. A viewpoint that you act as if it can't be falsified since it doesn't care about the results of its policies and instead is based purely on not facing reality.
Well, if it isnt, then I really have no idea what the Troika are thinking. The only way you make this deal is if you think Greece can pay back its loans. If it can't, then all you are doing is ensuring that Greece will need another bailout in the near future. Personally, I agree with the IMF and think this deal pretty much guarantees that Greece will need another bailout. More austerity means more unsustainable debt.
I mean, if the point was to help out Greece, then there would have been some loan forgiveness or alternations. That certainly isnt what the Troika did. Well, I guess if you wanted to punish Greece and please your constituents back home then yea, this deal would make sense. It doesnt make any economic sense, but it does in a cowardly, cruel and short-sighted political sense.
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