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[My words exactly!]

Done! Voted NO!

This is how it felt

So any rich gafers in english speaking countries willing to adopt me if this goes down the shitter?

Well done bro

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

The only one stopping a deal from happening is Schaeuble. Read the NY Times link that was posted earlier to see why a deal wasn't reached earlier. IMF, US and almost all other parties involved were inline with the greek proposal.

 

[benjipwns]

The fuck?

You are kidding with these right? I can't even tell anymore.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170904719&postcount=2070

 

[oti]

How the fuck are the Germans considered most trustworthy? They've only started two world wars.

Come on.

 

[PodcastFips]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170904719&postcount=2070

 

[Heartfyre]

This week has been great for the proliferation of reductionist arguments and further attacks against nuance, but I'm glad that we'll finally get some resolution today. The result of both votes is terrible for Greece, so I don't have strong feeling about how anyone chooses. The only wrong decision is not vote if you can, as apathy serves no one in these challenging times.

Yet it turns out that apathy may be winning the day.

Poll workers say the turnout rate is low. Approximately 1/3 of registered voters have voted

 

[PodcastFips]

On our TV channels, a participation between 80-90% was expected. Well...

 

[nature boy]

This week has been great for the proliferation of reductionist arguments and further attacks against nuance, but I'm glad that we'll finally get some resolution today. The result of both votes is terrible for Greece, so I don't have strong feeling about how anyone chooses. The only wrong decision is not vote if you can, as apathy serves no one in these challenging times.

Yet it turns out that apathy may be winning the day.

I don't think there will be any resolution, in both cases it'll be back to the negotiation table.

 

[petran79]

a lot of the elderly will also not vote due to the heat

 

[norinrad]

When can we expect the results? Tomorrow?

 

[PodcastFips]

When can we expect the results? Tomorrow?

In 9-10 hours.

 

[old]

They're voting on an expired proposal right? So even if they vote yes, there's no guarantee they could even still get the creditors to agree to the deal, correct?

 

[Jackpot]

I guess there is a defence force for everything on GAF:

What am I defending exactly? That intentions impact morality? I'll stand by that.

Why don't you try making a counter-argument instead of dodging the issue?

 

[chadskin]

I summed that up cause of the poll results. However i disagree on one thing you said. Let me explain: ever since the night of Saturday June 27th, pensioners were among the first to queue outside ATMs and banks. Their majority only listens to their pockets and you can be sure they'll flock to vote. Also, most pensioners live close to where they vote.

On the other side, Greek youth is pro no, but this is on social media mainly. It remains to be seen whether they'll leave their summer bath or work/school for a while. Many are still amidst exams period in universities and it is not certain that they'll travel to their homes to vote. We'll see.

Oh yeah, I should've been more precise. I blame the heat. What I meant was that it's usually easier to mobilize the youth instead of the elderly in the run-up to an election/vote. Hence why "enthusiasm" isn't necessarily a good indicator.

When it comes to the actual election, absolutely it's what you described. Elderly turnout is consistently higher than the youth's.

The only one stopping a deal from happening is Schaeuble. Read the NY Times link that was posted earlier to see why a deal wasn't reached earlier. IMF, US and almost all other parties involved were inline with the greek proposal.

Any new deal would be a very different beast altogether, though. The proposal that is on vote today was for the extension of the second bailout program under the EFSF but that program expired on June 30. A new, third bailout program would be under the ESM as Tsipras and Varoufakis have said. However, one CDU MP said recently the contagion risk of a Greek default for other EU member states is low, thus a bailout under the ESM would not be legal. Question is, does he have a point? If so, what then? Also, the German Bundestag has to approve of new talks about a third bailout program before it can actually happen. Will they? There's a growing discontent in Merkel's CDU/CSU party.

Also, the third bailout program will likely be a much broader package than the 6-month extension for the second bailout program. Going by the IMF report, it may need to include a debt relief and/or a debt restructuring.

All these questions need to be answered. Had Tsipras signed the extension of the second bailout program, the Greek government and the institutions would have had six months to answer these. Now, they have until July 20, otherwise Greece defaults. That's why I echo what SymbiantXenos said: A new deal in 48 hours seems highly unlikely.

 

[Joni]

The only one stopping a deal from happening is Schaeuble. Read the NY Times link that was posted earlier to see why a deal wasn't reached earlier. IMF, US and almost all other parties involved were inline with the greek proposal.

Not even Syriza believes IMF wants their proposal. There are also only three directly involved parties: the IMF, the Eurogroup and the European Central Bank. The last can but won't make any decisions without the Eurogroup. These are the people Greece is negotiating with. If the US is inline with the Greek proposal, they can put their money where their mouth is.

As Mr. Tsipras paced and listened on the 25th floor of the hotel, his top aides argued that neither Germany nor the International Monetary Fund wanted an agreement and that they were instead pushing Greece into default and out of the euro.

Greece’s creditors — the I.M.F., the other eurozone nations and the European Central Bank — sent the Greek paper back and marked it in red where there were disagreements.

On Wednesday night, Greece was presented with a counterproposal. At the behest of the I.M.F., the tax increases had been reduced and, crucially, the government was told that it needed to increase value-added taxes on hotels.

Also important to remember:

For its part, the IMF has paid lip service to the idea of debt relief for Greece. But it has not backed that up with any such endorsement in key official documents.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/30/greek-debt-crisis-us_n_7698026.html

 

[Tetranet]

https://twitter.com/daviddpearce/status/617398406634434560

At least Uncle Sam's Ambassador has our back. Thank you Mr. Pearce & America.

When can we expect the results? Tomorrow?

In ~5 hours. This is a reliable (imo) place you can keep an eye on http://en.enikos.gr/ (English).


EDIT: The Congressional Letter to Ms. Lagarde is also enormously helpful http://www.scribd.com/doc/270323472/Congressional-Letter-to-Lagarde-070215-1 Thank you American Congress(wo)men!


EDIT2: And because I know many people on NeoGAF and from many many countries really care about the events that unfolded in the previous weeks concerning LGBTI Rights to Marriage, Greece's LGBTI community is also giving their fight today in tandem with SYRIZA and OXI. This couldn't have happened in a better time for them.

Another reasonfor people to madly hate the current government for many people in Greece is that it contains Feminist and LGBTI politicians. And no, Kammenos the coalition partner isn't a far right bigot. The man mostly cares about the military personnel and national security.

 

[chadskin]

Helpful illustration of the possible scenarios after the results:

The Reuters live blog is always good if you want to stay up to date: http://live.reuters.com/Event/Greek_Debt_Crisis_4

 

[benjipwns]

One question that chart doesn't answer entirely for me: What happens if SYRIZA wins an absolute majority of seats in a follow up election like some polls suggest they might? (175 seats or something last one I saw.)

 

[Tetranet]

I'd call Greek public servants lazy and teachers (it's ridiculous how broken the education in Greece is, you HAVE to take private lessons to learn English for example, there's no way around that).
But I've seen plenty of equally lazy German public servants.

There is much corruption and it's true there are absolutely horrible people EVEN right now, who are parasites and nothing more. Concerning education, private cram schools are necessary for the national exams which are brutally hard, but what you mention about English is an exaggeration. Student's for example can learn foreign languages at their public university for tiny costs.


It's true the country is a mess, but it is wrong to blame the average citizen and even go as far as to call them lazy. Officla reports from both Greek Banks (Eurobank for example) and international organizations (like OECD) indicate the complete opposite. EDIT: Some more hard data.

Racist stereotypes and talk of "lazy" DNA and "hardworking" DNA are shameless and blatant bigotry. Corruption and greed caused this and will continue to do so, not normal peope looking to live quiet, peaceful lives.

 

[jelly]

Russia should just say they'll help out then the EU will be like all is forgiven after getting a nudge from the U.S.

 

[Rafy]

Another reasonfor people to madly hate the current government for many people in Greece is that it contains Feminist and LGBTI politicians. And no, Kammenos the coalition partner isn't a far right bigot. The man mostly cares about the military personnel and national security.

Even though I hate austerity (even though I am hoping for a "yes" just so the banks open and I can receive the wire transfer for my rent), I believe that putting together two entirely different political causes in the same poster is not right. As much as I want to see LGBT+ rights in Greece, I don't think that they should be sharing the same poster as an answer to a question that heavily divides the nation. I know this is not the issue at hand right now but it really bugs me...

 

[Tetranet]

One question that chart doesn't answer entirely for me: What happens if SYRIZA wins an absolute majority of seats in a follow up election like some polls suggest they might? (175 seats or something last one I saw.)

I haven't seen many foreigners (or Greeks even) to consider this scenario. What would happen in case of NAI vote is that in autumn's elections Tsipras would get a massive 40%+ percentage and return stronger, with a much more solid party. He is by far the most popular person in this country.

In fact, I'd say a NAI vote is the politically preferred outcome for SYRIZA.

Even though I hate austerity (even though I am hoping for a "yes" just so the banks open and I can receive the wire transfer for my rent), I believe that putting together two entirely different political causes in the same poster is not right. As much as I want to see LGBT+ rights in Greece, I don't think that they should be sharing the same poster as an answer to a question that heavily divides the nation. I know this is not the issue at hand right now but it really bugs me...

Socially and politically it is their best bet right now. Greece isn't your average country regarding these things, and no issue can be discussed in a vacuum. SYRIZA is the one and only champion for LGBTI and other suppressed groups. They managed to pass laws so most African children who have lived here for some time and go to school (and others ofc) could receive Greek citizenships, something that WOULD NEVER be done by the old parties. The banks will open sooner or later, capital controls will be there for a long time. You won't lose your money, and if you do they will start a massive storm. I'd be happy to see the meager amounts I have in the bank go up in flames if it meant this went to a Supreme Court due to EU Law breaches. Not to mention there would be tension throughout the entire Eurosystem, as the loss of such tiny amounts will trigger deposit withdrawals. They do not DARE do this.

This NAI-OXI referendum is well beyond what's printed on the paper, it's an unprecedented phenomenon for Greece.

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

Shh, everybody knows except the panicking Grandpas and Grandmas, this statement is meant for them.

 

[My words exactly!]

Not even Syriza believes IMF wants their proposal. There are also only three directly involved parties: the IMF, the Eurogroup and the European Central Bank. The last can but won't make any decisions without the Eurogroup. These are the people Greece is negotiating with. If the US is inline with the Greek proposal, they can put their money where their mouth is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/30/greek-debt-crisis-us_n_7698026.html

Firstly, bear in mind something i posted a few days ago:

Daily greek media report (warning, a paper bag would be a good idea. Don't say i didn't warn you...):

- SKAI channel's official twitter account is plastered with "pro YES" banners. Gee, wasn't press supposed to be unbiased? At least they dropped the pretences.

- MEGA TV had a live feed this morning from a pensioners' line outside a bank's ATM. A pensioner started blasting the pro austerity camp and rooting for NO, something that they clearly weren't expecting so they cut him off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srtDNgB94aU&feature=youtu.be

- They also cut off (again, LIVE) a popular actor that works for a MEGA telenovela but dared to criticize the media for all the agitprop campaign of the last few days during an interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZQ9b12X7ac

- Former MEGA and SKAI reporter, and Huffington Post editor, "greek" Sofia Papaiwannou has been fired from her job by Arianna Huffington cause she was caught tampering reports from Greece and editing articles in order for the pro YES camp to appear more popular.
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article...ke-i-sofia-papaioannoy-apo-ti-huffington-post

Secondly, it was said on greek tv that greek government proposed counter-measures like: taxing businesses with excess of 0.5million € profit, or taxing the gambling industry instead of the tourism industry and the agricultural one that are of paramount importance to Greece. The other side didn't agree (i wonder why) and that is why the greeks backed off and decided to go for the referendum.

Oh yeah, I should've been more precise. I blame the heat. What I meant was that it's usually easier to mobilize the youth instead of the elderly in the run-up to an election/vote. Hence why "enthusiasm" isn't necessarily a good indicator.

When it comes to the actual election, absolutely it's what you described. Elderly turnout is consistently higher than the youth's.


Any new deal would be a very different beast altogether, though. The proposal that is on vote today was for the extension of the second bailout program under the EFSF but that program expired on June 30. A new, third bailout program would be under the ESM as Tsipras and Varoufakis have said. However, one CDU MP said recently the contagion risk of a Greek default for other EU member states is low, thus a bailout under the ESM would not be legal. Question is, does he have a point? If so, what then? Also, the German Bundestag has to approve of new talks about a third bailout program before it can actually happen. Will they? There's a growing discontent in Merkel's CDU/CSU party.

Also, the third bailout program will likely be a much broader package than the 6-month extension for the second bailout program. Going by the IMF report, it may need to include a debt relief and/or a debt restructuring.

All these questions need to be answered. Had Tsipras signed the extension of the second bailout program, the Greek government and the institutions would have had six months to answer these. Now, they have until July 20, otherwise Greece defaults. That's why I echo what SymbiantXenos said: A new deal in 48 hours seems highly unlikely.

Sure it will be much more complicated as you say. Also, it need to be a deal with a horizon of many years in order to be effective. It must however, be FAIR. The older proposal (i posted a link in the previous page) was outrageous.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

"Stratos Safioleas ‏@stratosathens 25m25 minutes ago Attica, Greece

Just now: @yanisvaroufakis Q: if it's a no vote, how quickly can you get a deal?
A: "24 hours" (to @katieslaman @CNBC)"


^^ lol

 

[oti]

Oh man, seeing all that support from other countries. It always felt like Greece against The EU for me. Without Twitter I woulnd't know there were such rallies. German media could've done a better job here.

"Stratos Safioleas ‏@stratosathens 25m25 minutes ago Attica, Greece

Just now: @yanisvaroufakis Q: if it's a no vote, how quickly can you get a deal?
A: "24 hours" (to @katieslaman @CNBC)"


^^ lol

That's just for the elderly. They want their pension and couldn't care less about anything else.

 

[Africanus]

How the fuck are the Germans considered most trustworthy? They've only started two world wars.

WWI was sparked by years of military build-up not attributed to any one country. Britain can be held just as culpable for instigating it following the unification of the German states in the 1870s. Germany was a scape-goat, and a "needed" one to prevent riots over why the war was fought or whether they were ever enemies.

WWII on the other hand, is Germany's fault. But WWII Germany was a lifetime ago, and has been both figuratively and literally burned to the ground and reborn.

 

[oti]

Fellow Greeks, I'm not rich but I live in Germany and I will adopt you if you promise to open up a Zacharoplasteio in Hamburg. The German cuisine is quite lacking in that regard. (Butterkuchen? Like are you for real Germany?)

 

[Chariot]

WWI was sparked by years of military build-up not attributed to any one country. Britain can be held just as culpable for instigating it following the unification of the German states in the 1870s. Germany was a scape-goat, and a "needed" one to prevent riots over why the war was fought or whether they were ever enemies.

WWII on the other hand, is Germany's fault. But WWII Germany was a lifetime ago, and has been both figuratively and literally burned to the ground and reborn.

Although I would argue that the bad handling of the WWI allies didn't help. A lot of things went wrong, from the humuliation from the french over letting the old officals still handling the country and then later ignoring all the workarounds several chancellors did around the Treaty of Versailles. But to be fair, they learned from said mistakes and handled post-WWII a lot better.

 

[ElTorro]

Just now: @yanisvaroufakis Q: if it's a no vote, how quickly can you get a deal?
A: "24 hours" (to @katieslaman @CNBC)"

Clowns.

In 24 hours, he will claim that he meant "draft a proposal, that the creditors have to accept",

 

[Joni]

Firstly, bear in mind something i posted a few days ago.

In that case, you can show actions by IMF officials that support your statement that they're willing to debt relief. Bear in mind that report that says debt relief is necessary, doesn't seem backed by Lagarde or any of the other officials negotiating. They still want austerity for Greece. IMF doesn't believe in letting debts drop, not even if a country defaults. They have always fought for their money.

Secondly, it was said on greek tv that greek government proposed counter-measures like: taxing businesses with excess of 0.5million € profit, or taxing the gambling industry instead of the tourism industry and the agricultural one that are of paramount importance to Greece. The other side didn't agree (i wonder why) and that is why the greeks backed off and decided to go for the referendum.

None of this supports your original post, that IMF is close to agreeing based on the NY Times article. Or why you consider US and other involved parties when only three parties are actually negotiating on a Greek deal.

 

[Blablurn]

would you give him your money?

 

[Coriolanus]

would you give him your money?

GabeN did. Heard no complaints from Valve.

What a silly post

Clowns.

In 24 hours, he will claim that he meant "draft a proposal, that the creditors have to accept",

Why do you pretend not to be aware that he's perfectly happy with a grexit too? The professor is also a politician. Shock and horror.

 

[Tetranet]

Daily greek media report (warning, a paper bag would be a good idea. Don't say i didn't warn you...):

- SKAI channel's official twitter account is plastered with "pro YES" banners. Gee, wasn't press supposed to be unbiased? At least they dropped the pretences.

- MEGA TV had a live feed this morning from a pensioners' line outside a bank's ATM. A pensioner started blasting the pro austerity camp and rooting for NO, something that they clearly weren't expecting so they cut him off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srtDNgB94aU&feature=youtu.be

- They also cut off (again, LIVE) a popular actor that works for a MEGA telenovela but dared to criticize the media for all the agitprop campaign of the last few days during an interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZQ9b12X7ac


- Former MEGA and SKAI reporter, and Huffington Post editor, "greek" Sofia Papaiwannou has been fired from her job by Arianna Huffington cause she was caught tampering reports from Greece and editing articles in order for the pro YES camp to appear more popular.
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article...ke-i-sofia-papaioannoy-apo-ti-huffington-post

Criminals. Didn't hear about the last one, absolutely unprecedented. To think she was even feeding the US embassy.

 

[ElTorro]

would you give him your money?

http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/mephisto-laesst-gruessen-griechenlands-finanzminister-yanis-varoufakis-54-mit-teuflischem-blick-bei--46382925-41648050/2,w=650,c=0.bild.jpg [IMG][/QUOTE]

OXI:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hBzte3Z.jpg

NAI:

 

[Jb]

would you give him your money?

We already did.

 

[norinrad]

Did anyone see this?

"Is Greece still in the euro after this referendum? That is certainly the case, but if they say ‘no’ they will have to introduce another currency after the referendum because the euro is not available as a means of payment," Schulz told Germany's Deutschlandfunk radio in an interview broadcast on Sunday and taped on Thursday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-eurozone-greece-schulz-idUSKCN0PF06O20150705


At least i hope the old people get a free pass. I'm all for it.

 

[Tetranet]

Did anyone see this?



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-eurozone-greece-schulz-idUSKCN0PF06O20150705

Schulz has overstepped his positions and even this morning keeps making announcements. He stopped being worth listening to ages ago.


Also, there are rumors that this facility has already printed a considerable amount of Drachmes. Just in case. They will probably disappear though and won't be used. Greece is more than capable of printing banknotes with the same machines it uses to print Euro.

 

[Yamauchi]

would you give him your money?

Ridiculous. Because the guy looks a bit silly in your eyes, he doesn't know what he's doing?

 

[norinrad]

Ridiculous. Because the guy looks a bit silly in your eyes, he doesn't know what he's doing?

Hahaha they are just f**king around i think.

 

[chadskin]

One question that chart doesn't answer entirely for me: What happens if SYRIZA wins an absolute majority of seats in a follow up election like some polls suggest they might? (175 seats or something last one I saw.)

A new election would take place in September at the earliest. By then, a bailout deal would've either been accepted or Greece would've left the Eurozone.

"Stratos Safioleas ‏@stratosathens 25m25 minutes ago Attica, Greece

Just now: @yanisvaroufakis Q: if it's a no vote, how quickly can you get a deal?
A: "24 hours" (to @katieslaman @CNBC)"

^^ lol

Going to take a bit to get all the German Bundestag MPs back together as it's officially the parliamentary summer break since Friday and then discuss and vote on if Schäuble should enter negotiations on the third bailout program proposed by the Greek government. All other Eurozone parliaments would have to agree on new negotiations with Greece as well if I'm not mistaken.

These sorts of claims are why the institutions have little to no trust in the Greek government.

Fellow Greeks, I'm not rich but I live in Germany and I will adopt you if you promise to open up a Zacharoplasteio in Hamburg. The German cuisine is quite lacking in that regard. (Butterkuchen? Like are you for real Germany?)

DON'T YOU DARE! A warm Butterkuchen fresh out of the oven is the best.

 

[Tetranet]

DON'T YOU DARE! A warm Butterkuchen fresh out of the oven is the best.

Nay, strudel.

 

[Blablurn]

I was actually hoping somone would discover the bild.de url behind the picture and then accuse me of German propaganda.

 

[oti]

DON'T YOU DARE! A warm Butterkuchen fresh out of the oven is the best.

You must be German. Have you tried Galaktompoureko? It's like an angel's kiss.

#OXIButterkuchen

 

[SymbiantXenos]

That strudel looks awesome.

 

[oti]

This right here, this is the good suff. It's no Galaktompoureko but it's great.

 

[chadskin]

Nay, strudel.

It's alright as long as it's an apple one. Much harder to make on your own than a Butterkuchen, though.

You must be German. Have you tried Galaktompoureko? It's like an angel's kiss.

#OXIButterkuchen

I haven't but it at least looks similar to a Bienenstich. Is it?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Black Forest Gateau

 

[Tetranet]

You must be German. Have you tried Galaktompoureko? It's like an angel's kiss.

#OXIButterkuchen

and kataifi

Those are shared with the Turkish cuisine (EDIT: and beyond it seems, most of Near East, I learned something new...), and the Turk artisans in Greece prove it. Sort of like a rivalry between the historically rival nations, not with swords or fighters, but with sugar. who does it best. Poetic huh?

We might found ourselves without Euro, but the cows always have milk...

 

[oti]

It's alright as long as it's an apple one. Much harder to make on your own than a Butterkuchen, though.



I haven't but it at least looks similar to a Bienenstich. Is it?

:O

Nein. Enoough is enough. I declare war on you and Butterkuchen and Bienenstich!

 

[ElTorro]

Why do you pretend not to be aware that he's perfectly happy with a grexit too? The professor is also a politician. Shock and horror.

That still allows me to call him a clown, doesn't it?

 

[oti]

and kataifi

Those are shared with the Turkish cuisine, and the Turk artisans in Greece prove it. Sort of like a rivalry between the historically rival nations, not with swords or fighters, but with sugar. Poetic huh?

Oh yes, that's the stuff. Galatopita is great as well. And Ekmek. And everything.

There's a lot of Turkish kataifi here in Germany but it tends to be stronger than Greek kataifi. (AND ITS SO EXPENSIVE!)