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[ElTorro]

How the fuck are the Germans considered most trustworthy? They've only started two world wars.

Jesus... The world has changed in the last 70(!) years, you know...

 

[Turin Turambar]

Oh wow. Since according to law it is illegal to run political messaging as of midnight last night, Skai to avoid reciprocations has decided to remove their logo from their broadcast and run it anyway. I really hope they end up digging their own grave for this bullshit.

(not my picture)

The fact this can HAPPEN in the first place in a first world country is a symptom of the deep problems that the nation has. Because it paints a picture of a place where anything goes, where people feel following the rules is optional and aren't even surprised when this happens, where there aren't strong law/justice mechanisms, etc. In other words, more like I expect in a young country in the developed world.

 

[ElTorro]

Whats the question?

The funny thing is that (1) these documents were a draft that wasn't accepted by either side and, most important, (2) these documents contained terms for the 2nd bailout program which expired on 30th of June. So they are irrelevant now.

I stil can't believe that Greece is voting on such a silly question. This is all such a circus.

The consequence is that the result of the referendum will be technically worthless, and its meaning completely open for interpretation. Everybody will spin it according to their agenda.

Ironically, that's absolutely not how you do democracy.

 

[Theonik]

Jesus... The world has changed in the last 70(!) years, you know...

lol

The fact this can HAPPEN in the first place in a first world country is a symptom of the deep problems that the nation has. Because it paints a picture of a place where anything goes, where people feel following the rules is optional and aren't even surprised when this happens, where there aren't strong law/justice mechanisms, etc. In other words, more like I expect in a young country in the developed world.

People were rallying outside their station earlier or so I heard. Many things can happen even in the first world. They are taking advantage of the situation right now. If things go well they are so FUCKED. Or so I hope.

 

[protonion]

Done! Voted NO!

This is how it felt

So any rich gafers in english speaking countries willing to adopt me if this goes down the shitter?

 

[cyberheater]

So is it too early for exit poll analysis?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Haha, I like to think it's just propping up a centuries old rivalry for the sake of old times.

I once had an estate agent in London refer to the French as "our oldest enemy" and complain that they had to say everything in English AND French at the 2012 Olympics. Not even sure how that conversation got started, I was just looking at flats!

Anyway, all the best for the referendum today Greece. Hope you vote OXI and tell the Troika to get fucked.

 

[Theonik]

So is it too early for exit poll analysis?

The ballots close at 19:00 UTC+3:00
There will be no Exit Polls before that.

 

[cyberheater]

The ballots close at 19:00 UTC+3
There will be no Exit Polls before that.

Thanks for the information.

Good luck Greece.

If they vote no I still don't think they will exit the eurozone. I think the other countries would sooner write off the dept then allow this failure.

 

[protonion]

The first safe result will be announced at 21:00 greek time. So in 8:30 hours from now.

 

[Rubenov]

What's with the troika get fucked attitude? I mean, fine, good luck finding someone, anyone, willing to lend you money then. Anyone that gives a cent to Greece won't likely see their principal back ever much less interest.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

The fact this can HAPPEN in the first place in a first world country is a symptom of the deep problems that the nation has. Because it paints a picture of a place where anything goes, where people feel following the rules is optional and aren't even surprised when this happens, where there aren't strong law/justice mechanisms, etc. In other words, more like I expect in a young country in the developed world.

Yes or no, a change in mentality seems to be key to change the country.

 

[Engell]

Done! Voted NO!

This is how it felt

So any rich gafers in english speaking countries willing to adopt me if this goes down the shitter?

IF?, I am pretty sure the shit is already neck high in Greece

 

[Theonik]

Yes or no, a change in mentality seems to be key to change the country.

I mean, people are not tolerating this behaviour or think it is acceptable. They have just been rendered powerless through years of being politically complacent. Pay heed rest of the western world because if you keep not voting and letting the same parties remain in power you'll get on this level someday.

IF?, I am pretty sure the shit is already neck high in Greece

So are you adopting them ναί ή όχι ?

 

[True Savior]

Done! Voted NO!

This is how it felt

Congrats Bro !!!

 

[Engell]

I mean, people are not tolerating this behaviour or think it is acceptable. They have just been rendered powerless through years of being politically complacent. Pay heed rest of the western world because if you keep not voting and letting the same parties remain in power you'll get on this level someday.


So are you adopting them ναί ή όχι ?

what skills do you all have :-D maybe we can start the GAF company ;-)

 

[Celine]

Whats the question?

The question is meaningless, the referendum was called to give an escape route to the current greek government which was elected on the promise to refuse austerity measures.

No matter who will win, there will be harder time ahead for our greek fellows (and maybe not just them).

 

[Blablurn]

#TeamYES

 

[hobblygobbly]

How the fuck are the Germans considered most trustworthy? They've only started two world wars.

Because Germany and German culture isn't defined by two world wars that only cover a few years of its history? Also WW1 can't be attributed to a single conflict or nation, WW1 was a culmination of decades of conflicts amongst European nations until the camel's back broke and Germany escalated and Germany's responses (and some cases lack thereof) to diplomatic allegiances from Britain, France, etc. Historians heavily criticise and debate pointing a single finger at a specific nation for the issue of WW1. It's still a very heavily discussed topic, the general consensus is it being a collective blame.

Also not to mention Germany is a country that had rapid, drastic changes to its economy, politics and social issues in the last 70 years like no other, Japan is up there too with Germany.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I mean, people are not tolerating this behaviour or think it is acceptable. They have just been rendered powerless through years of being politically complacent. Pay heed rest of the western world because if you keep not voting and letting the same parties remain in power you'll get on this level someday.

I understand.

A former colleague of mine once talked about his time in Athens as an employee in an internet cafe. He talked about power outages being a regular occurance. That really wouldn't fly in other western countries but he said it was just part a part of daily life. I attributed it to acceptance but your comment makes sense in that regard. Powerless seems to be a better term. No pun intended.

 

[benjipwns]

Serbia, Austria-Hungry or Russia should be considered as starting World War I before Germany.

World War II is different, but I always thought it funny that the UK and France's ultimatum on Poland didn't apply to the Soviets.

 

[Blablurn]

How the fuck are the Germans considered most trustworthy? They've only started two world wars.

are u for real?

 

[Bregor]

Serbia, Austria-Hungry or Russia should be considered as starting World War I before Germany.

World War II is different, but I always thought it funny that the UK and France's ultimatum on Poland didn't apply to the Soviets.

Germany shares the blame. There is good evidence that without the Kaiser's "Blank Check" assurance to Austria, Austria would not have acted. And also that Germany was well aware that the assurance was highly likely to lead to war.

Edit: Modern Germany has a much different nature however. Their society changed substantially after their defeat in WW2.

 

[RaGe_pt]

#TeamNO! Save yourselves from the tyranny of Europe Greece! A hug from Portugal.

 

[benjipwns]

In fairness, everybody shares the blame, at times I wonder if it's not a bigger tragedy than The Holocaust, The Gulags, The Cultural Revolution, etc. simply because there were so many points at which it could have been stopped by one person and it was for nothing from the start, yet they kept fighting it, enslaving and killing millions.

Say what you will about those other crimes I mentioned, but at least they had logical goals if you accept their disgusting premises. WWI was just like for pride, and the leaders of the country treated their citizens as expendable in their chasing personal glory.

This is way off topic, I don't think the referendum will lead to another world war however. But we can never be sure with Germans involved.

 

[RaGe_pt]

In fairness, everybody shares the blame, at times I wonder if it's not a bigger tragedy than The Holocaust, The Gulags, The Cultural Revolution, etc. simply because there were so many points at which it could have been stopped by one person and it was for nothing from the start, yet they kept fighting it, enslaving and killing millions.

Say what you will about those other crimes I mentioned, but at least they had logical goals if you accept their disgusting premises. WWI was just like for pride, and the leaders of the country treated their citizens as expendable in their chasing personal glory.

This is way off topic, I don't think the referendum will lead to another world war however. But we can never be sure with Germans involved.

I don't think we are at a point where another world war is waiting to happen though it is also true that the risk is the biggest since WWII in my opinion. The situation with Russia, the tension between Greece and all the other members of Europe and that fact that Europe cannot defend themselves (the army is not enough) and still had to rely on the USA for that brings us to a cautious situation that many people are ignoring. We face hard times and the political leaders are incredibly weak when compared to the ones we once had.

 

[Jackpot]

Serbia, Austria-Hungry or Russia should be considered as starting World War I before Germany.

World War II is different, but I always thought it funny that the UK and France's ultimatum on Poland didn't apply to the Soviets.

Let's not go full revisionist. Historians still see Germany as the principal instigator even if other countries still had a large part in it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324

World War One: 10 interpretations of who started WW1

Sir Max Hastings - military historian
Germany

Sir Richard J Evans - Regius professor of history, University of Cambridge
Serbia

Dr Heather Jones - associate professor in international history, LSE
Austria-Hungary, Germany and Russia

John Rohl - emeritus professor of history, University of Sussex
Austria-Hungary and Germany

Gerhard Hirschfeld - professor of modern and contemporary history, University of Stuttgart
Austria-Hungary, Germany, Russia, France, Britain and Serbia

Dr Annika Mombauer - The Open University
Austria-Hungary and Germany

Sean McMeekin - assistant professor of history at Koc University, Istanbul
Austria-Hungary, Germany, Russia, France, Britain and Serbia

Prof Gary Sheffield - professor of war studies, University of Wolverhampton
Austria-Hungary and Germany

Dr Catriona Pennell - senior lecturer in history, University of Exeter
Austria-Hungary and Germany

David Stevenson - professor of international history, LSE
Germany

They go quite indepth on their reasoning.

 

[Engell]

can we stop the World War talks?

 

[PdotMichael]

In fairness, everybody shares the blame, at times I wonder if it's not a bigger tragedy than The Holocaust, The Gulags, The Cultural Revolution, etc. simply because there were so many points at which it could have been stopped by one person and it was for nothing from the start, yet they kept fighting it, enslaving and killing millions.

Say what you will about those other crimes I mentioned, but at least they had logical goals if you accept their disgusting premises. WWI was just like for pride, and the leaders of the country treated their citizens as expendable in their chasing personal glory.

This is way off topic, I don't think the referendum will lead to another world war however. But we can never be sure with Germans involved.

wow

 

[petran79]

Also, mayor of Athens (a friend of Benizelos and major PASOK supporter) had public workers take down NO flyes and posters from city streets, while leaving YES ones
http://www.proklitiko.gr/2015/07/vi...liloi-katevazoun-tis-afises-uper-tou-OXI.html

Where I vote the opposite did happen!

 

[Theonik]

I understand.

A former colleague of mine once talked about his time in Athens as an employee in an internet cafe. He talked about power outages being a regular occurance. That really wouldn't fly in other western countries but he said it was just part a part of daily life. I attributed it to acceptance but your comment makes sense in that regard. Powerless seems to be a better term. No pun intended.

Since the crisis, there has been a large wave of what has been dubbed as 'Electricity Poverty' in Greece. Basically lots of people not being able to afford electricity. (there was also a huge uproar a few years ago from passing emergency property tax on people's power bills)

World War II is different, but I always thought it funny that the UK and France's ultimatum on Poland didn't apply to the Soviets.

It was a complicated time. They hated the communists as much as the Nazis but had to choose one or the other if they hoped to take either of them down.

 

[benjipwns]

Let's not go full revisionist. Historians still see Germany as the principal instigator even if other countries still had a large part in it.

Gerhard and Sean seem to be more in line with me!

wow

Read the rest of the sentence.

 

[PdotMichael]

Read the rest of the sentence.

Your little if doesn't make it better.

 

[benjipwns]

Your little if doesn't make it better.

The process of logic doesn't comment on morality.

If the premise is that Greece shouldn't get a bailout, then actions that would achieve this would be "logical goals" even if they're morally wrong.

Killing millions of your own people doesn't seem like a logical goal to have if your premise is that you've been personally disrespected and need to regain your status.

 

[PodcastFips]

Done! Voted NO!

This is how it felt

So any rich gafers in english speaking countries willing to adopt me if this goes down the shitter?

Uhh... I'll add you to my list. You seem like a nice, little rebel.

Spoiler

jk

 

[le-seb]

I don't think we are at a point where another world war is waiting to happen though it is also true that the risk is the biggest since WWII in my opinion.

Where were you around 1980?
Cold war was one of the reasons why France (and other countries) insisted to get Greece aboard the EU.
And the current tensions around Balkans, North Africa and Middle-East are also good reasons why the EU won't let Greece down now.

 

[Wubby]

What ever happened to Poisonelf? Used to always see him posting in Greek threads.

 

[Theonik]

What ever happened to Poisonelf? Used to always see him posting in Greek threads.

He gave up. I remember a post of his on those lines.

 

[PdotMichael]

The process of logic doesn't comment on morality.

If the premise is that Greece shouldn't get a bailout, then actions that would achieve this would be "logical goals" even if they're morally wrong.

Killing millions of your own people doesn't seem like a logical goal to have if your premise is that you've been personally disrespected and need to regain your status.

Nice that you just finished your philosophy 101 course. Can't wait when your course get to necessity and sufficiency.

Also your comparison is still disgusting.

 

[benjipwns]

The comparison of horrendous crimes that killed millions with another horrendous crime that killed millions? Okay.

 

[PdotMichael]

The comparison of horrendous crimes that killed millions with another horrendous crime that killed millions? Okay.

Yes, that Holocaust, Gulags and Cultural Revolution was somehow better than the WWI because it was "logical" is indeed disgusting.

 

[Jackpot]

Yes, that Holocaust, Gulags and Cultural Revolution was somehow better than the WWI because it was "logical" is indeed disgusting.

Don't be so emotive. The reasons behind an action do indeed impact the morality. Killing for no reason vs killing for gaining resources. There are other aspects that impact it, such as the apathy of commanders resulting in no change in tactics vs the aggressive construction of infrastructure to actively kill people.

 

[PdotMichael]

Don't be so emotive. The reasons behind an action do indeed impact the morality. Killing for no reason vs killing for gaining resources. There are other aspects that impact it, such as the apathy of commanders resulting in no change in tactics vs the aggressive construction of infrastructure to actively kill people.

I guess there is a defence force for everything on GAF:

 

[benjipwns]

Yes, that Holocaust, Gulags and Cultural Revolution was somehow better than the WWI because it was "logical" is indeed disgusting.

I didn't say it was better, I said they were logical goals if the premises were accepted.

People can certainly disagree, and I'm not completely sold on the argument, but I don't consider World War I to be a logical goal stemming from the premise that set it off.

That doesn't mean I consider it worse, I consider all of the crimes equally bad. My thought about World War I being the largest tragedy was a "if you had to rank them" type of thought experiment and I considered it because I find it to be an incredibly tragic series of unthinking short term reactions with larger consequences rather than built out of immoral premises followed to their logical conclusion.

But this is about Greece and the untrustworthy Germans, not past crimes against humanity. So I'll leave it at this.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

 

[PodcastFips]

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

I would not be too sure about that, though.

But this is about Greece and the untrustworthy Germans, not past crimes against humanity. So I'll leave it at this.

The fuck?

 

[ClosingADoor]

But this is about Greece and the untrustworthy Germans

But we can never be sure with Germans involved.

You are kidding with these right? I can't even tell anymore.

Anyway, whatever Greece votes today, let's hope it is for the best. I don't really see this referendum as doing much good, since there is nothing to really vote about, but let's see what happens next week.

 

[mnz]

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

This in-between phase could be really bad, because I also think it could take awhile..

 

[SymbiantXenos]

I would not be too sure about that, though.

I would be. not 100% but pretty certain of it.

Also Tsiprias/Syriza promises the following after a no vote

Banks re open Tuesday - possible but highly unlikely in my opinion.
No deposit haircuts - lol
No Grexit - again lol, there's other sovereign goverments with their own mandates as well don't forget

 

[Turin Turambar]

So Tsipras thinks he'll get a deal (he promised it) within 48 hours if there's a no vote?

Not happening

Yes, it's all a bit silly if you think about. The entire premise for how he acted during the entire week hinges on that, in that he is gaining more 'bargaining chips' with this, to make a more favorable deal for Greece.

But... it doesn't really work like that. If the other side doesn't consider it important, then it isn't important. It's only important as much as people believes it is. If in the other hand Europe says "cool, so lots of greek people voted no, because they don't want to make reforms to pay more taxes. Are we supposed to be impressed? We don't care about that, my offer for the loan is still X Y Z, take it or leave it."