Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joni said:
There is no legal framework for a country leaving the Eurozone and not the EU.
Click to expand...

There is no legal framework for a country leaving the Eurozone full stop. It's uncharted territroy, and would largely be sorted out on the spot, I suspect. Nobody gains from Greece being pushed out of the EU, so a Grexit would almost certainly be from the Euro alone.
 
2MF said:
Does this mean they cancelled the 11 am meeting? But that was Eurogroup and not European Council ?
Click to expand...

No. At 11 the Euro FinMins will continue yesterday's meeting. Later at 16 the Euro presidents will meet. After that there should've been another meeting with all EU members.

In other words, today's a Euro club only meeting day.


Napalm_Frank said:
No Grexit incoming after all? Wasn't that the main discussion of EUCO?
Click to expand...

It would seem as such. So maybe Tusk talked with Merkel on the phone and she agreed to the Greek proposals?
 
Napalm_Frank said:
They don't need but there most likely would be all kinds of humanitarian ect. help that all EU would take part in.
Click to expand...

This. The repercussions would be EU wide, given that all but three of the EU are expected to join the Euro and one of the ones that isn't is loosely pegged to it (Denmark). Greece is also not ready to get a new currency ready as it hasn't planned to do this but is being forced, so it'd take some time to get a new currency together and there's a big humanitarian question about what happens in the intervening 2-3 months. It'd take a lot of careful help from the EU as a whole.
 
benjipwns said:
As long as you don't run it like the Detroit Institute of Arts.
Click to expand...

Art galleries are probably specific to Europe where a lot of post-industrial cities have become places of cultural capital, and are helped by the tourist trade. I don't know how well that translates to the expansive US. but the point is some areas of spending provide good returns.
 
Crab said:
There is no legal framework for a country leaving the Eurozone full stop. It's uncharted territroy, and would largely be sorted out on the spot, I suspect. Nobody gains from Greece being pushed out of the EU, so a Grexit would almost certainly be from the Euro alone.
Click to expand...

Nikodemos said:
That's not entirely true. A state that would declare the euro no longer legal tender would evidently be in violation of several EU treaties, but since said treaties do not have a statute of penalties attached, there is no real punishment to issuing New Drachma and confining the Euro to exchange offices.

And, as Captiosus mentioned above, the Union predates the Euro (and there are EU members which do not use it), so there's no real weight to the idea that rejecting the Euro automatically means rejecting the Union. It makes for a good German talking point, though.
Click to expand...

Captiosus said:
There's no legal framework for leaving the Eurozone, period. The EU, as a political entity, existed before the single currency so there's no reason it cannot continue to exist if countries leave (or are booted from) the currency system.
Click to expand...
All member states except the UK and Denmark have to join Euro once they are ready. EU existed before but the Euro is mandatory. A Greek default pushes them ou the Euro which is un violation with that.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/who_can_join/index_en.htm
 
Crab said:
That news makes me think there's no Grexit coming.
Click to expand...

Seeing as how they haven't even been able to decide whether or not they're going to discuss the proposal out of Athens without groups from Finland and Germany taking hard line positions, I'm fresh out of optimism. Germany's ESM vote accounts for 27% of the total voting tally so if Germany votes no to any future ESM package Greece can't even get any aid under emergency provisions.

I think the cancelling of the EC meeting was done simply because there isn't likely to be a conclusion to the Greece Eurogroup talks today or because Tusk didn't want to split the attention between the two meetings.

I honestly don't believe Germany's leadership will be happy until Greece is forced out or completely crushed under foot.
 
Captiosus said:
Seeing as how they haven't even been able to decide whether or not they're going to discuss the proposal out of Athens without groups from Finland and Germany taking hard line positions, I'm fresh out of optimism. Germany's ESM vote accounts for 27% of the total voting tally so if Germany votes no to any future ESM package Greece can't even get any aid under emergency provisions.

I think the cancelling of the EC meeting was done simply because there isn't likely to be a conclusion to the Greece Eurogroup talks today or because Tusk didn't want to split the attention between the two meetings.

I honestly don't believe Germany's leadership will be happy until Greece is forced out or completely crushed under foot.
Click to expand...

Tusk is against the Grexit, maybe he's trying to put pressure on the YesGrexit camp to find a solution and not wait until the EUCO can talk about a Grexit?
 
Joni said:
All member states except the UK and Denmark have to join Euro once they are ready. EU existed before but the Euro is mandatory. A Greek default pushes them ou the Euro which is un violation with that.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/who_can_join/index_en.htm
Click to expand...

Yes, but that's something totally different. That just proscribes what you have to do if you join the European Union. Greece is not joining the European Union, it has already joined it. What you've linked does not say what happens if someone exits the Eurozone, simply because there is no legal material detailing what to do in such a situation. Pretending that it'd just follow the accession criteria again is silly, especially as Greece's economy is in a sufficiently poor state it would be allowed derogation rights.
 
Italy indeed said "enough is enough" to Germany.

Renzi: Deutschland darf Griechenland nicht demütigen
Italiens Ministerpräsident Matteo Renzi äußert scharfe Kritik an Deutschland im griechischen Schuldenstreit. Eine Demütigung Griechenlands dürfe es nicht geben, sagt Renzi der Zeitung "Il Messaggero". "Italien will keinen Austritt Griechenlands aus dem Euro, und zu Deutschland sage ich: genug ist genug."
Click to expand...
 
Crab said:
Yes, but that's something totally different. That just proscribes what you have to do if you join the European Union. Greece is not joining the European Union, it has already joined it. What you've linked does not say what happens if someone exits the Eurozone, simply because there is no legal material detailing what to do in such a situation. Pretending that it'd just follow the accession criteria again is silly, especially as Greece's economy is in a sufficiently poor state it would be allowed derogation rights.
Click to expand...
No, that describes that except for two countries you have to eventually become a Euro member. That applies to all members, even Greece when they ratified it. So they’ll have to find a special way to keep Greece in which is probably why they had a full EU summit.
 
Captiosus said:
Seeing as how they haven't even been able to decide whether or not they're going to discuss the proposal out of Athens without groups from Finland and Germany taking hard line positions, I'm fresh out of optimism. Germany's ESM vote accounts for 27% of the total voting tally so if Germany votes no to any future ESM package Greece can't even get any aid under emergency provisions.

I think the cancelling of the EC meeting was done simply because there isn't likely to be a conclusion to the Greece Eurogroup talks today or because Tusk didn't want to split the attention between the two meetings.

I honestly don't believe Germany's leadership will be happy until Greece is forced out or completely crushed under foot.
Click to expand...


I still think Merkel is not favoring that option. She probably knows that this will be the defining point of her time as chancellor - and she's about to fuck it up.
 
Joni said:
No, that describes that except for two countries you have to eventually become a Euro member. That applies to all members, even Greece when they ratified it. So they’ll have to find a special way to keep Greece in which is probably why they had a full EU summit.
Click to expand...

But Greece complied already with this obligation.
 
Joni said:
No, that describes that except for two countries you have to eventually become a Euro member. That applies to all members, even Greece when they ratified it. So they’ll have to find a special way to keep Greece in which is probably why they had a full EU summit.
Click to expand...

Firstly, Greece already complied with this - it entered the EU, and then entered the Eurozone. An exit is a different situation, and one which is not legislated for. Regardless, Greece probably will eventually rebecome a Euro member again if it stays in the European Union, but countries don't have to become Euro members until their economies reach certain criteria - until that point they have right of derogation. I don't know if you'd noticed, but Greece's economy definitely does not meet that criteria. This is a complete non-issue spread by people that want to scare Greece.
 
oti xero said:
Italy indeed said "enough is enough" to Germany.
Click to expand...
Once again Italy can't handle Greece. why do we keep allying with you? >:o

But seriously, more than Grexit or no Grexit I am concerned about the discord in the EU. The loss of trust and unity is aweful.
 
Plus even Germany's plan is about a temporary Grexit. So, in line with the requirements. By the time Greece will be again ready for euro there won't be any euro out there.
 
Xando said:
Probably will be no deal at all because after yesterday it's basically dead locked.


https://twitter.com/OpenEurope/status/620154240862781440
Doesn't sound like a man who is going to agree to a deal today.
Click to expand...

I mean, you wonder what on earth is the point of kicking it down the road again. The ECB's payment is due on the midnight of the 20th. Any plan needs to have gone through, at the very least, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal, each at a national level. If no deal is reached, a controlled Grexit needs to be planned. There's so much to do that it's just baffling things are going so slowly.
 
oti xero said:
Whoah whoah whoa slow there buddy. Euro Grexit is fine but EU Grexit? I don't want that to happen.

Really interested to see what Italy and France are going to do today.
Click to expand...

With all respect i am not going to slow down because you want it. People voted NO to austerity but if they are forced one they will probably want to choose the way they ll have it.
Democracy things etc.
Grexit equals out of EU and Euro. And considering the state EU and Eurozone are now, it might be beneficial to both parties. The EU and Eurozone have driven the black sheep out of their cage thus they have one less problem to deal with and the black sheep has to re-learn how to survive and adapt to the new reality.
It is going to be tough but we have endured worse situations. The difference is that we, more or less, to an extend, caused all this mess.
 
PdotMichael said:
The history of the NSDAP and the Nazi Seizure of Power is complex and not comperable to anything in Greece or in other parts of Europe right now or in the feature.

People should stop doing such comparisons here.
Click to expand...
People who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Just a fair warning. Even Italy said that Greece doesn't need more humiliation.

Acorn said:
Hilarious that the country that went through Versailles is basically doing the same thing to another country.

No I don't think nazi's or whatever are gonna go to war, but they should pay a little attention to history.
Click to expand...
It's pretty obvious that most people don't give a fuck about history.

PdotMichael said:
Wasn't a Grexit like the best idea here just a few days ago?
Click to expand...
A permanent, not a temporary one.

Greece has oil/gas reserves. There's no reason to re-join the EU/Eurozone. Ask yourself why Norway has never joined the EU.
 
For a controlled Grexit ECB should step in. Maybe they don't want that and they want Greece to burn to the ground. I mean the discussions have already reached the level of diplomacy of the dark age, might as well burn the witches.
 
Joni said:
No, that describes that except for two countries you have to eventually become a Euro member.
Click to expand...

Actually it's not that clear cut. The actual requirement is that once a country meets the criteria to join the Euro, it must join the Euro.

This turns out to be a crucial distinction, for example see this article on Sweden and the Euro:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

Sweden is obliged under its 1994 Treaty of Accession to join the eurozone once it meets the necessary conditions set out in the Treaty of Maastricht.[1][2] Sweden maintains that joining the ERM II (a requirement for euro adoption) is voluntary,[3][4] and has chosen to remain outside pending public approval by a referendum, thereby intentionally avoiding the fulfilment of the adoption requirements.
Click to expand...
 
2MF said:
Actually it's not that clear cut. The actual requirement is that once a country meets the criteria to join the Euro, it must join the Euro.

This turns out to be a crucial distinction, for example see this article on Sweden and the Euro:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro
Click to expand...

Fun fact: The '94 treaty of Accession was signed Kerkyra (Corfu) where the then greek government pushed for the acceptance of the candidate members Austria, Sweden, Norway and Finland, especially on bypassing legal matters. Not that they were not worth it, ofcourse.
 
Acorn said:
Their military spending has been protected because it's with German companies.
Click to expand...

Actually the Eurogroup asked multiple times to reduce military spending. It was the Greek gov who said no.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/greece-major-disagreements-country-european-leaders/story?id=32265346

The European creditors want a sharp cut in military expenses, which the Greeks resist, Loch-Temzelides said. Creditors have called for an approximate 400 million cut in military spending compared to the 200 million or so cuts favored by Greeks.
Click to expand...
 
tapantaola said:
I understand that it's not convenient/politically correct for Germans to mention Weimar Republic, but you have to deal with it. History is a bitch and it tends to repeat itself.
Click to expand...

If history repeats itself then it doesn't matter if we know about it because it will repeat itself anyway.

So you can stop pulling out platitudes like a 12 years old school boy.
 
PdotMichael said:
If history repeats itself then it doesn't matter if we know about it because it will repeat itself anyway.

So you can stop pulling out platitudes like a 12 years old school boy.
Click to expand...
Insulting someone won't do you any favors.

You tend to "forget" that Weimar Republic was humiliated and we know how well that ended up... if you fail to see the comparison, it's not my fault. At least Italy is able to see that.
 
2MF said:
Actually it's not that clear cut. The actual requirement is that once a country meets the criteria to join the Euro, it must join the Euro. This turns out to be a crucial distinction, for example see this article on Sweden and the Euro:
Click to expand...
Yes, Sweden can avoid becoming a member as long as they don't meet the criteria. The link I posted addressed that point specifcally. It is however more difficult for Greece. It had the criteria and it had joined.

KingSnake said:
But Greece complied already with this obligation.
Click to expand...

Crab said:
Firstly, Greece already complied with this - it entered the EU, and then entered the Eurozone. An exit is a different situation, and one which is not legislated for.
Click to expand...

It concludes that negotiated withdrawal from the EU would not be legally impossible even prior to the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, and that unilateral withdrawal would undoubtedly be legally controversial; that, while permissible, a recently enacted exit clause is, prima facie, not in harmony with the rationale of the European unification project and is otherwise problematic, mainly from a legal perspective; that a Member State’s exit from EMU, without a parallel withdrawal from the EU, would be legally inconceivable; and that, while perhaps feasible through indirect means, a Member State’s expulsion from the EU or EMU, would be legally next to impossible. This paper concludes with a reminder that while, institutionally, a Member State’s membership of the euro area would not survive the discontinuation of its membership of the EU, the same need not be true of the former Member State’s use of the euro.
Click to expand...

While a Member State may be free to denounce its EU participation and repudiate its treaty obligations in their entirety, it would not be free to go back on its decision to join EMU without breaching a binding obligation, under the EC Treaty, unless it were also to withdraw from the EU. Consequently, the only way to withdraw from EMU is to withdraw from the EU.
Click to expand...

The only alternative interpretation is that there was never intended to be a right of withdrawal from EMU, among other things because of the complex network of rights and obligations that EMU entails for its participating Member States and their NCBs and which cannot easily (and certainly not automatically) be unwound through a unilateral act of withdrawal.
Click to expand...
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scplps/ecblwp10.pdf
 
Joni said:
Yes, Sweden can avoid becoming a member as long as they don't meet the criteria. The link I posted addressed that point specifcally. It is however more difficult for Greece. It had the criteria and it had joined.


http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scplps/ecblwp10.pdf
Click to expand...


But this is not about Greece voluntarily getting out of EMU. It's not an unilateral action from Greece. It's about kicking them out of EMU. Greece doesn't want out, unless Tsipras does another unexpected step and asks for Grexit. That would be even stupider.
 
Nobody can force Sweden to join the Euro even though ''officially they are going to''. Swedes know it would be a huge problem for their economy, they knew it back in the day and nowdays they are having a good, well earned laugh at Finland in this quagmire. Sweet irony considering there were quite a few finnish politicans when Finland decided to join the EZ that the country would run over swe economically because of euro magic.

It is especially ironic since Finland had a similar situation that Greece has back in the 90s. Our economy tanked because of overvalued currency, we bailouted the banks instead of the people and the only reason we got out of that mess was, surprise surprise, floating currency.
 
KingSnake said:
But this is not about Greece voluntarily getting out of EMU. It's not an unilateral action from Greece. It's about kicking them out of EMU. Greece doesn't want out, unless Tsipras does another unexpected step and asks for Grexit. That would be even stupider.
Click to expand...
There is no way to unilaterally leave the EMU anyway. There is also no way to force someone out. There is no exit mechanism for the EMU.
 
Joni said:
There is no way to unilaterally leave the EMU anyway. There is also no way to force someone out. There is no exit mechanism for the EMU.
Click to expand...
That's true. And if Greece wants to play hardball they should just default while being in Euro. That would be a wonderful mess to solve.
 
KingSnake said:
That's true. And if Greece wants to play hardball they should just default while being in Euro. That would be a wonderful mess to solve.
Click to expand...

For Greece, yes. They'd have no access to their own currency.
 
Crab said:
For Greece, yes. They'd have no access to their own currency.
Click to expand...

I don't know why people keep banging on about there being no mechanism to force Greece out of the Eurozone.... if they leave it's going to be because they chose to do so to prevent their banking system collapsing....
 
KingSnake said:
They won't have anyhow any currency for some months. I wonder if it's possible to have another currency besides euro. Is it any punishment for that in the treaties?
Click to expand...

Varoufakis was talking about introducing parallel liquidity, yes.

#basedvaroufakis

Seriously though, it's not a good idea, because it's essentially a default anyway but with less of the benefits.
 
Crab said:
Varoufakis was talking about introducing parallel liquidity, yes.

#basedvaroufakis

Seriously though, it's not a good idea, because it's essentially a default anyway but with less of the benefits.
Click to expand...

So, they might remain in Euro and create their own currency in parallel? That's lovely. #justdoit

But if they can't exit Euro on their own and Euro group doesn't agree on anything, what to do? They are in default already.
 
A Greece default in the Euro is not 'a Greece default in the Euro' - they will just default and continue to use the Euro as a currency but as they owe the ECB they will I guess just be a non-Eurozone member using a foreign currency.

Their banks would collapse/be quickly nationalised and capital control on savings remain in place. Then I guess they can create new accounts for 'new money' without the same restrictions.
 
Kathian said:
A Greece default in the Euro is not 'a Greece default in the Euro' - they will just default and continue to use the Euro as a currency but as they owe the ECB they will I guess just be a non-Eurozone member using a foreign currency.
Click to expand...

But they don't have any Euros and don't have any way of getting them without introducing their own currency first. They could print Euro notes unilaterally, but a) I'm not sure they have sufficient capacity, and b) that would be illegal as fuck, like Russia just printing perfect U.S. dollars to buy U.S. products with.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Do you also prefer austere things to luxurious ones?
27
1K
StreetsofBeige replied
UFC leaves ESPN in 2026 and moves to Paramount Plus to stream all events. No more PPV.
News 
21
604
MaestroMike replied
  • Locked
  • Poll
Should voting be made more difficult?
2
93
4K
StreetsofBeige replied
  • Poll
Which one have you missed more your old car or your old computer
38
616
6502 replied
More hype than you expected.
34
2K
MaestroMike replied
Top Bottom