He's not, but whoever trust him is. The whole plan falls apart from that number onwards.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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He's not, but whoever trust him is. The whole plan falls apart from that number onwards.
PdotMichael
Banned
I addressed the humilation part just fine. Germany didn't vote for a radical right-wing party when the Versailler treaty had the biggest impact on Germany in the 20s.
So your history repeat nonsense is nonesense.
Seriously, the hyperbole and the comparisons to WW1/WW2 are getting ridiculous.
If evil Germany really wanted to fuck up its European partners, they could have just bailed out their own banks and ignore everything else. (No, not all the money was spend to bailout Germany's own banks. For instance, at least a third of that money was spent to refinance Greek banks, allowing the Greek people to continue to withdraw money. That's not unimportant as we have learned over the past days.) Greece would then have gone through some real austerity when left alone with no access to the capital markets.
Instead, German politicians have taken significant political damage to help the Eurozone. The majority of the German public, like every other public in any other nation, doesn't follow such issues in detail. All they take from this is "lulz, we are spending hundreds of billions of tax payer monies, and Greece still wantz moar." The only reason to act for years in a row against the mob is because you actually believe in the European project. Especially because of Germany's history.
Blame those who thought that harsh austerity would have helped everyone for being incorrect, if that's your verdict, but not for being evil, especially after Greece's governments and administrations didn't do a stellar job over the last five years.
Finland have some knowledge of basic economics and a calculator ?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's the deal that was being discussed earlier, which Finland apparently wasn't very cool on. Not that Finland matters given how low their capital contribution is.
It's a game of hot potato, and most do not want to be the ones to drop it (no matter how painful it is).
There's no guarantee a deal will be reached and approved by everyone, but there's certainly huge pressure every step of the way. No politician wants to be the one on the headline about Grexit.
The plan is irrelevant, i honestly don't think they care. Privatisation is the key. Some people are about to get rich. Well, richer.
Oh right, forgot that. Thanks.
Do you think Germany will even bring up their temporary Grexit proposal?
Nikodemos
Member
Crazy fucking rich, if the privatisation of the electricity transmission network goes through. That's a complete monopoly, since wide area electrical networks are immensely expensive to set up from scratch.
That demand alone should make this charitably-called 'offer' unacceptable.
So no decision today. The definition of the words "final" and "deadline" really have lost all their meaning. Guess this all will go on at as long as the ECB is keeping the banks alive. The 20th likely doesn't matter too much, too.
jakonovski
Member
Finland has an internal problem in that the third government party, the populist True Finns, has said that a yes vote for any bailout means they're pulling out of the government.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Is this real life?
If a party called "True Germans" became part of the government I'd leave Germany immediately.
Nikodemos
Member
Getting in bed with nationalist populists rarely produces good outcomes.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The thing is, the damage they're taking is a trap of their own devising. They have had literally a decade to say "hey look, one of the reasons we have a massive export and industrial sector compared to most other developed economies is because our currency is cheaper than it should be, and it's cheaper because countries like Greece drag it down. Your job working in the Mittelstand? You owe that to Spain. We benefit hugely from this, guys!".
Instead, they've spent the last decade, and especially the last five years, pretending to be put upon and blaming the European union for domestic failings (they're not alone in this, it happens in e.g., the United Kingdom too and it infuriates me). Obviously they're not evil, and the World War II comparisons are just annoying as fuck, but Germany's politicians have proved themselves utterly incompetent at a pretty basic level.
Coriolanus
Banned
By which criteria? Because all three sure as fuck aint there by unemployment, gdp or debt.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
20th definitely matters because Greece defaults on ECB loans then, and that means that the ECB can't cover them with ELA, which means they can't repay the private creditors on the 7th, who won't accept arrears like the IMF. To be honest, I'm still really surprised this didn't end one way or the other last Monday, but there definitely is a deadline deadline - private creditors don't give a shit about the politicking, they just want their money.
At some point, when reality is looking you in the face and you don't care about the harm to the people and keep pushing even harsher for the point of punishment, it is less about "I didn't know", and yes evil does enter into play. Especially when to justify fucking over Greeks you use racist propaganda full of lies.
jakonovski
Member
The funny part is that they refused the finance minister post, so in this crisis they basically only exist to shit things up in reaction.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Is there a good in-depth summary of this whole thing anywhere? I feel like I need to read up on it before commenting
Nikodemos
Member
How very typical. Provide the howling monkey gallery, but when asked to show their worth they slither out because reasons.
Negotiator
Member
A permanent Grexit. Why the hell Greece needs the EU when they have plenty of oil/gas reserves in the Aegean sea?
Why Norway hasn't joined the EU yet? (nobody has answered this question)
Greece getting another 100 billion loan and kicking the GDP/debt ratio up to 200% is absurd.
No, you didn't. You also tend to "forget" what happened in 1953. Germany has no right to lecture anyone (not just Greece) about debt. Especially when their economics "knowledge" seems to be religion-driven. I'd rather trust Americans when it comes to economics.
I'd say that Schäuble's proposals are nonsensical, but you seem to be a Schäuble fanboy. You also don't like to discuss the Siemens bribery scandal.
This neoliberal nonsense will end once and for all.
Southerners aren't going to endure more austerity/unemployment. It's the Northerners that'll have to suck it up and accept a transfer union (along with a political/fiscal union) or else this entire EU circus will end prematurely.
What are you even talking about?
cebri.one
Member
There is a lot of propaganda both ways.
Nikodemos
Member
The current crop of German politicians (this also includes Schroeder's coterie from the early 00's) would barely qualify to shine Adenauer's shoes.
Their Finnish name is more like normal/traditional Finns and their English name was changed a while ago to Finns Party.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Uhhh....what? Care to explain that?
What the fuck? How can you be completely unaware of the racist propaganda full of lies against Greece and Greeks?
A few examples:
Lazy Greeks trope.
All countries did austerity but Greeks didn't or it is their fault that it didn't work, when the austerity done in Greece was bigger, for longer, and the policy had generally negative results all around even in smaller scope.
The whole salivating and happiness of punishing Greeks with terms that one knows will be disastrous and not caring about that.
Nikodemos
Member
"Debts are immoral". This isn't a good foundation for basing economics discourse on.
The issue with Merkel is her political philosophy of just coasting along with as little change and drama as possible, keeping everything as it is until something forces you to act. Not just in this issue, that's her general strategy for domestic issues as well. Her party is conservative after all...
Theonik
Member
Dude they did that from the start. Many proposals are unconstitutional. And the government held coups to pass the passing 150 laws at a time without debate.
Basically giving them the entire Balkan infrastructure on a platter.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Not familiar with that quote, who said that and in what context?
Nikodemos
Member
Conservative politicians tend to forget conservatism should not strive to become house_on_fire_dog.png.
Since you want to read more on this, I would recommend to try Krugmans blog. He touches that and obsessions over austerity or debts and its results or the confidence fairy.
The austerity policies that Greece followed were a complete disaster that tanked the economy and the IMF calculations about the negative damage to the economy were proven completely wrong. Yet the only solution proposed is to follow a lot more stricter ones.
PdotMichael
Banned
Now, we are in 1953!
You are moving your topics faster than the history can repeat itself!
True, unemployment is near 2011 figures (just before Troika came), currently 13,2% in June, after the 2013 peak of 16,2% (which had a monthly peak of 17,8%).
Deficit is increasing, any budget with deficits increases it... Only surplus could avoid it.
And yearly deficit is estimated to be under 3% this year but it's true 1st trimester was 5,8%, but which represents 49% of the entire year deficit, so it's expected to lower overall.
I wonder what price it would sell for. Would it be a fair price, or "fire sale" style because "we need the money immediately in order to satisfy the Eurozone" ?
Maybe the idea of a lot more limited in scope and cutting only wastefulness, can be entertained. More so during growth than during recession.
But austerity on bath salts, which is exactly how one can describe the current plan for Greece, a plan for surpluses for many years in a devastated economy, is utterly insane. Grexit could be very bad currently but is certainly better than that plan.
First of all, you need to look up the definition of "racist". Second of all, I am unaware of any propaganda by the German government accusing the Greek people of being lazy. Are you seriously conflating troll posters on the Internet or in tabloid comment sections with Germany? If you are so concerned about rhetoric in government propaganda you might just start with Greece's former finance minister accusing the Eurozone of terrorism.
Nikodemos
Member
It's not a quote, it's the general guiding principle for a lot of German politicians (and more than a few regular Germans). Making a cheap morality play out of economic principles.
It's the same with their inflation fetish/hatred. They still push to lower inflation even when all the numbers show deflation, because there might be some inflation in the future, at some point, eventually, probably.
Germany has been an export nation for 5 decades now, it didn't start 10 years ago. The Mittelstand owes Spain fuck all. Germany was doing just fine before the Euro. Lets not forget that joining the Euro was a demand by France for allowing the reunification of Germany. Germany became naturally the hegemon due to its size and location, nobody asked for it. It's one of the reasons it always hid behind France, but leadership from France has been sorely missing the past few years. So now Germany has become to boogeyman.
Of course Germany has been benefiting from the Euro but it was also doing just fine before that with a strong Deutsche Mark.
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