Yes. Because it's not a solution. If you're broke, spending more money is not going to fix your problems. Those are the same honks who write garbage like "What the US can learn from China". Those asshats are no scientists, they're wannabe magicians who believe they can create money out of thin air. Charlatans who should be in jail, not on television.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Coriolanus
Banned
You do know that every single country in the world uses some form of fiat currency, yes?
That's a fair point. How do you think France factored into the submitted proposal?
I find it very funny that Merkel was so angry with the French government just because they helped Greece to form the proposition without Merkel knowing it .
It makes Germany's goals even more obvious than before.
I hope Greece doesn't accept it and takes aid from other "allies" instead.
they are all crossing each other, Holland is a weak leader but putted Valls as prime minister and that guy is something else entirely
"Don't worry, if we need to kick you out of the Eurozone we'll also treat you like a 3rd world country"
Napalm_Frank
Member
As someone said before the ''temp'' part of grexit is kinda silly. Why would you join back if you recovered with your own currency? Not in a good long while methinks. To me it just sounds like something to cool down the greeks who fear the grexit.
I really don't know how it will end. Truly up to Germany this one. They got da power, time to take the blame as usual.
I really don't know how it will end. Truly up to Germany this one. They got da power, time to take the blame as usual.
PJV3
Member
11 million people, i wouldn't trust the EU to be ready for a while. It would be easier to just hand over the Euros in the meantime wouldn't it.
I have no idea, the proposal is almost literally just a copy of the last one. That does not sound like they gave any technical support. Probably Hollande just gave moral support ala "I know my girl Angela. Germany is going to accept it before forcing a Grexit". In Tsipras defense, if Hollande really told him something along this lines, his action would be more understandable.
They're going to kick the can down another few years. Like they always do.
That's really the one thing that everybody in this thread agrees would be the shittiest strategy going forward.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Yet it is the one they seem to end up with every single time!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
They gonna kick the can down another time. "Damn these Greeks, if they just followed our programs! auesterity totally works" *cues to a wasteland Greece with 50% unemployment and 40% poverty*
Coriolanus
Banned
There's also the matter that using that emergency rule would also force everybody to understand once and for all that, if push comes to shove, Germany, Italy, Spain and France, with +-77% of the ESM vote, run this thing.
They are pray for the worst scenario, but Argentina didn't fall that much
The only silver lining I can see with that strategy is that Greece could actually succeed in implementing strategic reforms like a working taxation system or a efficient and fair social security system.
It is much easier to convince your creditors in the future to relax their austerity demands if you can show that you are getting shit done.
I guess it comes down to whether you trust Syriza and co to implement the reforms. Also there's still the awkward question of what if another new party comes along and says "we didn't sign this agreement, time to renegotiate".
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There's also the thing of:"Will austerity work this time?"
And we know that it won't work.
Coriolanus
Banned
At which point the creditors would suggest raising the primary surplus target.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Like they've been doing until now.
"Hey! you need the 3% surplus for this year or no money!"
Napalm_Frank
Member
The ESM mechanism was deemed unconstitutional in Finland back in the day yet it passed the parliament all the same. We only have ourselves to blame for giving the big EZ countries even more power and taking it away from small ones. Finland has always been backing Germany in the past.
I'd assume the same goes for all the other smaller countries. Nobody forced them to agree on the current voting mechanism.
The latest quotes sound nuts:
EU source: tension btw Draghi-Schauble because the first tried to support Greece for the PSI. Dijsselbloem calmed them down.
"Even if Tsakalotos chopped down his arm, Schaeuble would say it's not enough". Words of a European official for today's Eurogroup
greece schaeuble paper actually does admit that debt haircut possible. but only when greece out of euro <- This sounds more and more like the endgoal for parts of the Eurogroup. Only explanation for such behaviour.
EU source: tension btw Draghi-Schauble because the first tried to support Greece for the PSI. Dijsselbloem calmed them down.
"Even if Tsakalotos chopped down his arm, Schaeuble would say it's not enough". Words of a European official for today's Eurogroup
greece schaeuble paper actually does admit that debt haircut possible. but only when greece out of euro <- This sounds more and more like the endgoal for parts of the Eurogroup. Only explanation for such behaviour.
Alabamaman
Banned
The last government was a disaster in Finland. Giving control to other countries to use our money, fucking traitors I say.
If this is how things are going to go in the future, we should go back to our own currency.
Of course. But the thing is: You don't generate fiat money by randomly spending money on bullshit, either. Fiat money requires equivalent value - but public sector bloat isn't worth shit.
Austerity isn't bad. The term means very little in itself. Yes, simply spending less money is going to make things worse, but at the same time, just spending more money isn't going to fix anything, either. It's all about how you spend money. You can have austerity, spend less in total but more on the things that matter, and actually increase the equivalent value. Or you can spend more but be as wasteful as ever and therefore not generate any value at all.
Coriolanus
Banned
Indeed. And which system would you suggest for determining which is which?
Ether_Snake
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Grexit would be much more manageable if they didn't go alone, or the opposite.
In the end you have to ask: what is Germany's objective in all of these negotiations? To help Europe as a union? If so the plan has to allow Greece to eventually come out as working in Greece's economic favor. It obviously doesn't, and Germany and everyone involved knows it. So that leaves us with the idea that Germany's position is not about Europe's interests but its own, in that case the union is already over.
In the end the fact remains, a union of countries in similar difficulties would work much better. The so called "southern Europe", which would really include Ireland too, would be much better off working together out of this false union that is just going to cause each country to handle a crisis on their own one after another. Whether Greece leaves or not, there is only one outcome, which is that the union will break down and end, but how much damage will be done before it happens seems to be what the negotiations are about and some are interested in more than less.
In the end you have to ask: what is Germany's objective in all of these negotiations? To help Europe as a union? If so the plan has to allow Greece to eventually come out as working in Greece's economic favor. It obviously doesn't, and Germany and everyone involved knows it. So that leaves us with the idea that Germany's position is not about Europe's interests but its own, in that case the union is already over.
In the end the fact remains, a union of countries in similar difficulties would work much better. The so called "southern Europe", which would really include Ireland too, would be much better off working together out of this false union that is just going to cause each country to handle a crisis on their own one after another. Whether Greece leaves or not, there is only one outcome, which is that the union will break down and end, but how much damage will be done before it happens seems to be what the negotiations are about and some are interested in more than less.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I don't think the Eurogroup will reach an agreement tomorrow morning.
The EU summit will determine the final result. With these open rifts between countries, it could get very interesting.
The EU summit will determine the final result. With these open rifts between countries, it could get very interesting.
The new austerity package will kill the country eventually and this will also be the result of Greece leaving the Eurozone, or so they say.
This is a horrible state of affairs. Right now i wish for a Grexit from Eurozone and E.U. both because i do not want to be where i am not wanted. At least let me die the way i want not the way you tell me how.
This is a horrible state of affairs. Right now i wish for a Grexit from Eurozone and E.U. both because i do not want to be where i am not wanted. At least let me die the way i want not the way you tell me how.
PJV3
Member
Yeah, i don't know how your politicians could sit round the table with the others after this. Dark days ahead.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Any agreement is with the country, not with a specific party.
If agreements were just between parties, there would never be anything stable in the world.
"Crap, so-and-so just got a new PM. Time to renegotiate all the trade agreements!"
You'd think so, but that's pretty much what Syriza has done so far.
But Germany surely has to see any deal that enforces near unlivable conditions for a country's people is going to be eventually rejected by them, by force if necessary.
That's what Syriza has been doing and why the level of trust is so low.
Ether_Snake
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But what if Germany doesn't care? And what if Germany wants to use Greece to scare the other countries, whether they stay in or not? All indications point to that.
Hilarious that the country that went through Versailles is basically doing the same thing to another country.
No I don't think nazi's or whatever are gonna go to war, but they should pay a little attention to history.
Well if they dont care there's nothing that really has to make them. European countries has been starting wars and been at their neighbors throats for a lot longer than they've lived in peace. Can't last forever if both leaders and citizens don't even want unity in the first place.
Best not cut any military spending if I were Greece.
Their military spending has been protected because it's with German companies.
Coriolanus
Banned
Partially. The reason Syriza went into immediate conflict with the creditors is largely because Samaras had recently renegotiated the terms of the bailout extension with them, making an immediate discussion as soon as the snap elections were concluded pretty much inevitable.
Re-reading allathat, its kinda hilarious/sad that he caused the death of his own administration when he determined the closure of the ERT.
Ether_Snake
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I just realized how fundamentally stupid it is for the IMF to be involved in any of this, and it shows how Germany is not interested in making sure the union doesn't fall apart (it was Merkel who pushed for the IMF to be part of the creditors).
The IMF has no obligation to act according to the union's interest, it's not a European institution, it answers to various countries many of which aren't even in Europe. So it should be forced out and give up on getting its loan repaid because it's not an entity that can be counted on having the obligation to act in the interest of the union. It doesn't belong in this process and shouldn't have been from the start, and just because it was a stupid idea doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed now. Worst comes to worst, Germany can repay it, they're the ones that pushed for them to be creditors.
The IMF has no obligation to act according to the union's interest, it's not a European institution, it answers to various countries many of which aren't even in Europe. So it should be forced out and give up on getting its loan repaid because it's not an entity that can be counted on having the obligation to act in the interest of the union. It doesn't belong in this process and shouldn't have been from the start, and just because it was a stupid idea doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed now. Worst comes to worst, Germany can repay it, they're the ones that pushed for them to be creditors.
Whoah whoah whoa slow there buddy. Euro Grexit is fine but EU Grexit? I don't want that to happen.
Really interested to see what Italy and France are going to do today.
There is no legal framework for a country leaving the Eurozone and not the EU.
Nydius
Member
I don't want to see Greece leave the EU entirely but I truly believe they need to leave the Eurozone. This new agreement simply kicks the can down the curb, continues the stranglehold on the economy, and all but ensures Greece won't be able to meet the surplus requirements. They might be planning on doling out that 53bn€ over three years but how long is it actually going to last? Not very.
I don't profess to be a financial genius by any stretch, I've only had a few advanced economics classes as elective courses but from where I sit, the Euro is going to be the death of Greece. They have no say in their monetary policy and are forced to dance to the tune of Germany. Honestly, the entire unified currency has been a disaster for many countries in the Eurozone and Germany is reaping the benefits of putting Greece, Spain, Portugal, and parts of Ireland into unimaginable poverty.
It would be a very rocky road but if I were Greek I'd rather see the country have our own currency and be able to make our own monetary policies without having to get on our knees and appeal to the MEPs in Brussels.
There's no legal framework for leaving the Eurozone, period. The EU, as a political entity, existed before the single currency so there's no reason it cannot continue to exist if countries leave (or are booted from) the currency system.
Nikodemos
Member
That's not entirely true. A state that would declare the euro no longer legal tender would evidently be in violation of several EU treaties, but since said treaties do not have a statute of penalties attached, there is no real punishment to issuing New Drachma and confining the Euro to exchange offices.
And, as Captiosus mentioned above, the Union predates the Euro (and there are EU members which do not use it), so there's no real weight to the idea that rejecting the Euro automatically means rejecting the Union. It makes for a good German talking point, though.
We have longterm experience with this. I remember a list shown by Rachel Maddow in 2009, when Obama discussed with the senate about programs. For example, food stamps are effective and give you something like 150% of its worth back, because food stamps 1) need to be spent and not saved and 2) generate lots of jobs or at least save them.
I fear the trust for the Greek government just isn't here anymore. Even if the measures are effective on paper, without trust on the goverment implementing them the deal won't be get done. :/
benjipwns
Banned
So everyone should be on food stamps then.
Things will be tough either way, but no one can say for sure what the better long term outcome is.
Exiting the eurozone will be much more of a short/medium-term shock, but it will also provide Greece the independence and the responsibility to fix the problems (whereas now politicians on both the Eurozone and Greece can blame each other all day long).
travisbickle
Member
Or open up lots of museum/art galleries... There's lots of areas within spending that bring back a profit, and people have long complained about the neoliberal/technocrat way of looking at all spending as 50p loss on every £1spent (British conservatives obviously).
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