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[Culex]

But wide screen is just an aspect ratio, many games (almost all) does that.

I'm confused then. So widescreen with videogames is completely different than widescreen film, where there's more picture showing?

If the game is widescreen, doesn't it have to render more, since it's not stretched?

With F-Zero, you can see the difference clearly between widescreen and stretched 4:3.

Is F-Zero the exception to the rule?

 

[quin]

the difference between widescreen and pan&scan is due to the pixel aspect changing. have u ever seen an anamorphic image not corrected to show on a tv? its the same size as a 4x3 image 720x480 or 640x480 but its all squished.

Also isn't widescreen the only option you have if your going with 1080i? I know 720p can do either wide or pan&scan but im sure 1080i is strictly wide

I guess the hard thing for me to understand is that they can have this in 1080i and at 60fps when dragons lair on the xbox has a hard time to even move. Although how do the sega sports games play at 720p? my TV doesn't suppoert that so i've never gotten to see that

 

[Warm Machine]

But wide screen is just an aspect ratio, many games (almost all) does that.

Yeah most games just render 640x480 in anamorphic. Can't wait to see this 1080i mode.

 

[pcostabel]

Wait. The PS2 may have 4MB of VRAM, but aren't developers able to allocate unused DRAM to help process the visuals? I'm pretty sure it's one of the key points the system has. I remember Sony execs telling me this ages ago -- it's something that's stuck with me ever since.

The PS2 can stream textures in VRam from main memory, but you still need your front and back buffer in VRam, plus the Z buffer and the texture cache. The GS cannot access main memory directly.

 

[Warm Machine]

the difference between widescreen and pan&scan is due to the pixel aspect changing. have u ever seen an anamorphic image not corrected to show on a tv? its the same size as a 4x3 image 720x480 or 640x480 but its all squished.

Also isn't widescreen the only option you have if your going with 1080i? I know 720p can do either wide or pan&scan but im sure 1080i is strictly wide

The "true" resolutions for...

720p = 1280x720 which is 16:9

1080i = 1920x1080 which is 16:9

I've never heard of or seen a 720p or 1080i source that is 4:3 not that one doesn't exist though.

 

[quin]

soul calibur 2 and xmen legends are both 4x3 at 720 on the xbox I believe its a fill rate issue?

 

[teepo]

The "true" resolutions for...

720p = 1280x720 which is 16:9

1080i = 1920x1080 which is 16:9

I've never heard of or seen a 720p or 1080i source that is 4:3 not that one doesn't exist though.

soul calibur 2

 

[ourumov]

The GS does not support 24bit buffers: only 16 or 32. You can still use the alpha channel to store 8 bit textures, but two 32 bit buffers wouldn't fit. Plus, your front buffer cannot be half the back buffer: you are already field rendering.
The only way to make it fit is to get rid of the Z buffer and use a back to front rendering, just like on the PS1.

When doing Half Rendering the front buffer is always half the rear.

 

[Warm Machine]

soul calibur 2

Are you sure? I would have thought that unless you've turned widescreen on, and 720p on the Xbox dashboard it wouldn't show up. Do they even make 4:3 - 1280x720 displays?

 

[mr2mike]

"I'm confused then. So widescreen with videogames is completely different than widescreen film, where there's more picture showing?

If the game is widescreen, doesn't it have to render more, since it's not stretched?"

well there's image aspect ratio and pixel aspect ratio.

If a game were to run 640x480 for traditionnal TVs and then be programmed to run at 852x480 for widescreen, then that's image aspect ratio, and there are indeed more pixels being rendered.

On the other hand,n if you run 960x540 (as it is assumed in the case of GT4) for a 4:3 TV, and then basically just alter the FOV in the renderer to a wider field and stretch the image to a 16:9 ratio, that's pixel aspect ratio, and in reality, the same amount of pixels are being drawn. it's just that, if you can imagine, you're now pushing out rectangular pixels instead of normal square ones, wich results in a rectangular (16:9) image.

"Do they even make 4:3 - 1280x720 displays?"

1280x720 isn't 4:3 btw.

 

[pcostabel]

When doing Half Rendering the front buffer is always half the rear.

Then your back buffer should be twice the size. You cannot have a front buffer shorter than a field (540 for 1080i). Plus you can have both buffer at half height if you want.

 

[ourumov]

Pacostabel. I really don 't know the size of a full 1080 buffer. I thought it was 960*540. If this is the full size then you proceed like when doing Field Rendering at 480i:

Z
640*480 *16

R (Double size for Interlace filter)
640*480*24

F
640*240*24

 

[quin]

then do they use a black matt for soul calibur 2 and xmen legends?

 

[dark10x]

Are you sure? I would have thought that unless you've turned widescreen on, and 720p on the Xbox dashboard it wouldn't show up. Do they even make 4:3 - 1280x720 displays?

SC2 does run in 16:9 when using 720p...but it only draws a 4:3 box in the center while the sides are simply left blank.

 

[jett]

Agent X brings up an interesting point. I remember that Kaz himself(or someone else from Polyphony) said that 480p wouldn't be possible on GT4, because of hardware constraints. How the shit did they manage 1080i then? Sorry, but just...no.

 

[dark10x]

Agent X brings up an interesting point. I remember that Kaz himself(or someone else from Polyphony) said that 480p wouldn't be possible on GT4, because of hardware constraints. How the shit did they manage 1080i then? Sorry, but just...no.

Why is it listed on the official site then? That's what I want to know...

 

[pcostabel]

Pacostabel. I really don 't know the size of a full 1080 buffer. I thought it was 960*540. If this is the full size then you proceed like when doing Field Rendering at 480i:

Z
640*480 *16

R (Double size for Interlace filter)
640*480*24

F
640*240*24

As the name implies, a full 1080 buffer is 1080 lines. 960x540 is a quarter of a full buffer already (i.e. a field at half the horizontal resolution). You cannot reduce it further vertically, although you could reduce it horizontally, but it would look really shitty!

 

[Shompola]

Sure AlphaSnake. But they don't talk about front/rear buffer and the z-buffer when putting stuff in system/main memory. You can put the z-buffer in system memory but I don't think it's a wise move.

 

[jett]

Why is it listed on the official site then? That's what I want to know...

They've stated before that you'd be able to output the picture you take in Photo Mode to 1080i. I guess that's what the site is refering it to when it mentions 1080i support.

 

[pcostabel]

Sure AlphaSnake. But they don't talk about front/rear buffer and the z-buffer. You can put the z-buffer in system memory but I don't think it's a wise move.

No you can't. The GS cannot access main memory, so the Z buffer must reside in VRam. You don't need a Z buffer though, you can sort your polys and render back to front.

 

[cobragt3]

let me tell you kids something, looks like you all dont keep up with gt4 at all. Check it out, Kaz once said le mans and nurburgring were impossible to do on the ps2 with the level of detail they intend, but guess what kids? gt4 has le mans and nurburgring. I'm kind of sick of having to say this over and over but the proof is in your face and if you dont like why dont you just leave and stop worrying about it. Some of you come off as haters or something. I have posted links to threads of people who have the game and I even posted a link to a discussion that contrasted 480p and 1080i in gt4.

 

[ourumov]

Hmm ah ok !
Then it's clear there is not enough size. But then again they could be using another kind of rendering. Like they use on the TOOL.

 

[Wario64]

let me tell you kids something, looks like you all dont keep up with gt4 at all. Check it out, Kaz once said le mans and nurburgring were impossible to do on the ps2 with the level of detail they intend, but guess what kids? gt4 has le mans and nurburgring. I'm kind of sick of having to say this over and over but the proof is in your face and if you dont like why dont you just leave and stop worrying about it. Some of you come off as haters or something. I have posted links to threads of people who have the game and I even posted a link to a discussion that contrasted 480p and 1080i in gt4.

We don't come off as haters, it's just most of us have a hard time believing that the game is in 1080i. But when more people confirm it and the big sites that people trust say it is 1080i, then everyone will be happy. Well, except for the fanboys, haha

 

[Shompola]

"you can sort your polys and render back to front."

You mean like painters algorithm or what it's called? Wouldn't that bring the system to its knees?

 

[ourumov]

The solution I would use would be to split the screen in 4 parts. Render each of them, download the buffer to the main RAM and finally upload the 4 parts into a 1920*1080 buffer on VRAM and swap buffers.

Probably the framerate would be 3 FPS...

 

[pcostabel]

There are several options to render a 1080i on PS2:

1) 960x540x16bit front and back buffer, no Z-buffer: 2073600 bytes

Advantages: Plenty of ram for texture cache
Disadvantages: Need to sort geometry
Half the horizontal resolution
16 bit color

2) 960x540x32bit front buffer, 960x540x 16bit Z-buffer, no back buffer: 3110400 bytes
Advantages: Full 24 bit color
Decent amount of texture ram
Alpha channel for stencil effect/8 bit textures
Z-Buffer, no need to sort
Disadvantages: Need to sync the rendering with the vertical refresh to avoid filckering.
Best way would be to renderer upper half of the screen while lower half is
displayed and viceversa. Polys going across the screen needs to be
rendered twice.
Half horizontal resolution

3) 1920x540x16bit front buffer, no Z-buffer, no back buffer: 2073600 bytes
Advantages: Full Horizontal resolution
Plenty of texture ram
Disadvantages: Need both z-sorting and split rendering
16bit color

other combinations are possible. Personally, I would support 720p instead, since interlacing is always bad in games. If you really want to go 1080i, halving the horizontal resolution is the best option since most HDTV sets cannot display more than ~1000 horizontal lines.

 

[pcostabel]

The solution I would use would be to split the screen in 4 parts. Render each of them, download the buffer to the main RAM and finally upload the 4 parts into a 1920*1080 buffer on VRAM and swap buffers.

Probably the framerate would be 3 FPS...

Copying from Vram to main memory is very slow, so this is not really an option. See previous post for viable alternatives.

 

[OmniGamer]

let me tell you kids something, looks like you all dont keep up with gt4 at all. Check it out, Kaz once said le mans and nurburgring were impossible to do on the ps2 with the level of detail they intend, but guess what kids? gt4 has le mans and nurburgring. I'm kind of sick of having to say this over and over but the proof is in your face and if you dont like why dont you just leave and stop worrying about it. Some of you come off as haters or something. I have posted links to threads of people who have the game and I even posted a link to a discussion that contrasted 480p and 1080i in gt4.

hear·say P Pronunciation Key (hîrs)
n.
Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
Law. Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.

People want proof from CREDIBLE sources, simple as that.

 

[Gattsu25]

I don't think this will pan out to be true, but I'm not saying it won't happen. I just find 1080I to be unlikely. would love to be proven wrong, just to get the feeling that current gen consoles have some untapped power/abilities that were once overlooked :b


Needless to say, this 'news' doesn't affect me one way or the other

 

[Sho Nuff]

Thanks for the optimism cobragt, but after this intelligent discussion, I will now say I am even less convinced

 

[ourumov]

Copying from Vram to main memory is very slow, so this is not really an option. See previous post for viable alternatives.

I know this would be slow...

Then again I would like to know what do devs understand by 1080i since you are building framebuffers that don't have the right size by just putting the excuse most TVs don't support them.
I amb pretty skeptical about a PS2 game not using the Zbuffer...I doubt PD has gone so far.
The solution they have used is either cutting down the resolution of the framebuffers or splitting the framebuffer in smaller parts. Sure downloading the data to main RAM is slow but at least the texture pool on VRAM could be bigger and you wouldn't need to do multiple uploads per frame.

 

[cobragt3]

So I guess everyone is lying about the feature? These people with the game know and they have suggested it, believe if you want. I will because adban on gtp is very reliable.

 

[Sho Nuff]

So I guess everyone is lying about the feature? These people with the game know and they have suggested it, believe if you want. I will because adban on gtp is very reliable.

It's a conspiracy!

 

[The Faceless Master]

GT4 = R.Kelly

Forza = Underage Girl gettin peed on

man i am still in shock...

almost waiting for someone to say it's an elaborate hoax

 

[Agent X]

It almost sounds as if you are doubting that 1080i is supported at all (in any mode).

That's because I am doubting it, based on the fact that no other PS2 games support 1080i, even ones that aren't pushing the limits of the hardware as Gran Turismo 4 is doing. I'd really love to be proven wrong, though.

Doesn't this game come out in Japan in two days? We should know soon enough whether this is true. If this does happen, and it still maintains a relatively smooth frame rate, then it's going to redefine expectations and turn the entire console industry on its ear, kind of like Donkey Kong Country on the SNES did a decade ago.

 

[PG2G]

Have there been any reviews yet? You would think they;d mention it, since it is a rather big deal.

 

[cobragt3]

well some people in japan already have the game and they are the ones suggesting 1080i ingame. Hopefully someone with the game takes a pic of the option so all of this doubt will die.

 

[Warm Machine]

Well the spec sheet for the game in japanese lists 480p and 1080i. It is on another topic kicking around the board somewhere. What isn't completely discovered is just when either mode is used. If they are both in game all the time that is pretty impressive.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Have there been any reviews yet? You would think they;d mention it, since it is a rather big deal.

Yeah. it got 100/100/90/95 from a weekly PS2 pub. Forgot which.

 

[Wario64]

Yeah. it got 100/100/90/95 from a weekly PS2 pub. Forgot which.

Dengeki

 

[Pimpwerx]

This is indeed good news, but not quite as amazing as everyone thinks. Dig up old interviews from the GT3 development days. Kaz has said a number of times that the game renders at a much higher resolution internally and then gets downsampled to VGA resolutions. I think the shimmering from the limited mipmapping might have thrown away any possible gains though, so it was hard at the time for people to accept what he was saying back then. I think it might have been a C&VG interview, but I'm not gonna search. I guess it's true afterall though. Sounds good. Polyphony Digital >>> *. Seriously, Kaz and his wrecking crew work miracles with the Playstation hardware. I think I'll have to wait for GT4 PSP though. PEACE.

 

[Forsete]

well some people in japan already have the game and they are the ones suggesting 1080i ingame. Hopefully someone with the game takes a pic of the option so all of this doubt will die.

Yes please, that would be the final evidence. Cant you ask one of the GT4 owners from GTP to do that?

 

[mr2mike]

yes, that's just what I was thinking, for people tto be claiming such a thing, photogra[hic evidence is strangely lacking.

 

[cobragt3]

adban, the guy who has it is offline. I'll ask him to take a pic of the option.

 

[Pimpwerx]

BTW, if this is anything to go on, the GT2 intro gave us a good idea of what the PS2 could do in game. I guess the GT4 intro should give us a good idea of what to expect from GT4 in-game. PEACE.

 

[J2 Cool]

1080i for GT4? Boy does that make me feel funny down there. Now a logitech racing wheel and slightly elevated racing pit sitting in front of my HDTV playing a dead sexy GT4 in 1080i....

 

[mr2mike]

"adban, the guy who has it is offline. I'll ask him to take a pic of the option."

Dude, not the option, tell him to take a big photo of his TV, like the highest MP setting on his digicam, with the game running HiDef on it.

THEN we'll know. just seeing the option wont tell us if it's in game or photo mode, but seeing the actual result of the option will.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Yeah, seriously. Tell the guy to take some pics of the screen itself. 'Cause I swear to God if this is mode specific (photo mode) then you deserve to be banned for getting everyone's hopes up, Cobra.

 

[SolidSnakex]

BTW, if this is anything to go on, the GT2 intro gave us a good idea of what the PS2 could do in game. I guess the GT4 intro should give us a good idea of what to expect from GT4 in-game. PEACE.

Someone at GTPlanet posted a pic of the intro where there's around 20+pit workers moving away from a car as it pulls out.

 

[XS+]

We don't come off as haters, it's just most of us have a hard time believing that the game is in 1080i. But when more people confirm it and the big sites that people trust say it is 1080i, then everyone will be happy. Well, except for the fanboys, haha

I'd say that most of the incredulous are haters. You need only look to their post history to see how unlikely it was they would have purchased the game in the first place -- 1080i or not. Nonetheless, ingame runs at 480p, while the photomode supports 1080i. In terms of visuals, this still puts GT4 well ahead of any other racer on the market.