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GTA:SA modders speak

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neptunes

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http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3142280

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Modders Hit back at ESRB
"Don't make us your tertiary scapegoat."
by Jane Pinckard, 07/25/2005

Patrick Wildenborg, the modder who first publicized GTA's Hot Coffee minigame hack, sent along to 1UP a letter from the administration of GTAgarage.com, the center of the GTA modding scene, addressed to the ESRB. It's a brief but effective notice. Attached is the message sent to Clinton and Yee, the subject line of which reads, "The ESRB has lied to us all." The texts of both the note to the ESRB as well as the letter to Yee, Clinton, and Jack Thompson follow.

The ultimate message--that the original "Hot Coffee" minigame is not substansively different from other sex-based games content that got away with an "M" rating--is something that many fans would probably agree with. The letter also highlights the complaint many developers had that the ESRB standards are obscure. I don't know if it's a great idea to bash the ESRB, or whether someone like Jack Thompson is a guy who needs any encouragement (he's already going after The Sims 2 on his own, after all), but I can understand that the mod community feels threatened right now and unfairly targeted. Well, read the letter for yourself and make your own ca
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Can someone merge this with wario's thread? thanks.
 
WHY are these guys called modders? It's simplychanging a byte value. You can do it with an action replay or a gameshark or any pc cheat device for fuck's sake. It's not like they're taking different resources and programing their own damn scene with it. :lol
 
GaimeGuy said:
WHY are these guys called modders? It's simplychanging a byte value. You can do it with an action replay or a gameshark or any pc cheat device for fuck's sake. It's not like they're taking different resources and programing their own damn scene with it. :lol
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Way to read

including the scenes involving nudity which we modded into the game (by default, "Hot Coffee" did contain fully clothed actors...)
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I read it. It's just that the word "modder" has a context which suggest the addition or removal of something, not the activation or deactivation of something already present.
 
GaimeGuy said:
I read it. It's just that the word "modder" has a context which suggest the addition or removal of something, not the activation or deactivation of something already present.
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They activated the sex scenes. They added the nudity. That is their claim, atleast.
 
GaimeGuy said:
I read it. It's just that the word "modder" has a context which suggest the addition or removal of something, not the activation or deactivation of something already present.
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Who said that? They modified the game. They are Modders.
 
sangreal said:
They activated the sex scenes. They added the nudity. That is their claim, atleast.
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Bull. you can't add a nude texture to a game with a gameshark code. :lol
 
Yeah, I don't get what the issue here is. The word 'modded' comes from 'modify' and they are definitely modifying the original content of the game; it was locked. They might not be changing the textures, models, animation, content -- but the game has been fundamentally changed.
 
I haven't been following this whole garbage-ass debate or whatever, but God of War actually has nudity and a sex mini-game and it only got an M. I'd say it's a lot gorier too.

I think scapegoat is definitely the right term used in this case.
 
Could it be that the textures are on the disc but as the modders say they are toggled off by default and that the action replay/game shark codes toggle them on. It could be clear to someone who looked at the code that the game designers were only thinking about including the hot coffee portion of the game without any nudity by default. It could be in the end that the reason Rockstar decided to remove the entire Hot Coffee portion of the game was because they believed they would have had to include it with only fully clothed characters and they felt that it looked too stupid like that so they cut it at the last minute.

Most of the hot coffee movies I've seen the characters are wearing more clothes than you would expect.

I've heard a lot of unhappy rumbling from game designers that the ESRB's guidelines are not clear. Could this be the reason for Rockstars flip flopping on how to approach sex in GTA:SA? It seems silly to me that Rockstar would not be allowed to include this content in the actual game without avoiding being labled as a pornographic game. I've seen much worse in R-rated movies which are also intended for 17 year olds.
 
---- said:
Could it be that the textures are on the disc but as the modders say they are toggled off by default and that the action replay/game shark codes toggle them on. It could be clear to someone who looked at the code that the game designers were only thinking about including the hot coffee portion of the game without any nudity by default. It could be in the end that the reason Rockstar decided to remove the entire Hot Coffee portion of the game was because they believed they would have had to include it with only fully clothed characters and they felt that it looked too stupid like that so they cut it at the last minute.

Most of the hot coffee movies I've seen the characters are wearing more clothes than you would expect.

I've heard a lot of unhappy rumbling from game designers that the ESRB's guidelines are not clear. Could this be the reason for Rockstars flip flopping on how to approach sex in GTA:SA? It seems silly to me that Rockstar would not be allowed to include this content in the actual game without avoiding being labled as a pornographic game. I've seen much worse in R-rated movies which are also intended for 17 year olds.
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No, the textures are there. All the data is there. all the code does is basically flip a switch turning the whole sex scene from "off" to "on"
 
Wellington said:
I haven't been following this whole garbage-ass debate or whatever, but God of War actually has nudity and a sex mini-game and it only got an M. I'd say it's a lot gorier too.

I think scapegoat is definitely the right term used in this case.
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Agreed. If the ESRB had known about the sex minigames in San Andreas from the beginning, regardless of whether they were enabled or disabled, I believe its rating would have remained M.
 
Wellington said:
I haven't been following this whole garbage-ass debate or whatever, but God of War actually has nudity and a sex mini-game and it only got an M. I'd say it's a lot gorier too.

I think scapegoat is definitely the right term used in this case.
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You don't get to see the sex. You get to see a vase to the side. Nudity is ok for R rated movies, but you can't show actual penetration and such. I do agree that they are using Rockstar as a platform to move on to other games. It's all political bull.
 
Wellington said:
I haven't been following this whole garbage-ass debate or whatever, but God of War actually has nudity and a sex mini-game and it only got an M. I'd say it's a lot gorier too.

I think scapegoat is definitely the right term used in this case.
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They're playing off of the public's racial biases. Remember when FCC lobbyists went after TO and Nicole Sheridan on MNF?
 
Varian said:
They're playing off of the public's racial biases. Remember when FCC lobbyists went after TO and Nicole Sheridan on MNF?
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OH SNAP!

wait, actually, thats a pretty good point... why is there no uproar for games where white virtual people have sex?
 
wait so the hot coffee scene was 100% fully clothed now? but the "modders" made it nude?

so would Rock* be in trouble if it was 100% fully clothed?

im confused on what exactly is going on
 
GamerShu said:
wait so the hot coffee scene was 100% fully clothed now? but the "modders" made it nude?

so would Rock* be in trouble if it was 100% fully clothed?

im confused on what exactly is going on
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I'd like to hear the Supreme Court's opinion on this. They ask such interesting questions.
 
They even wrote to Sen. Cliton, Rep. Yee, and Jack Thompson, they'll be sure to win points with Clinton and Yee by addressing them wrongly.

Dear Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Yee, and Mr. Thompson

In recent statements by the ESRB, they have accused the mod community of undermining their ratings by putting sexually explicit material into PC games, namely San Andreas, which was already rated "M". However, if you look into a game by the name of "Singles - Flirt up your Life", it becomes quite clear they are doing a good job of that all by themselves. This "M" rated game features full frontal nudity (and not androgynous "barbies" like The Sims) and characters engaging in interactive sexual scenes. Screenshots of this game can be seen over at IGN: http://media.pc.ign.com/media/667/667197/imgs_1.html

And for that matter, what of the game "Playboy: The Mansion", which is based on the skin magazine, and is also rated "M"?!

Seeing as these game contains *far* more graphic depictions of sex than anything found in San Andreas, including the scenes involving nudity which we modded into the game (by default, "Hot Coffee" did contain fully clothed actors...), how exactly have we undermined their rating? If anything, what was left on the disc by Rockstar and modded into the game by us doesn't even come close to what the ESRB itself considers "M" material, let alone rising to their very own standards of "AO". To blame the mod community for this is not only hypocritical, but quite deceptive as well. Not to mention the fact that they've essentially had one title banned for containing "pornography", while they let more explicit games get by them.

For the record, we feel that "M" is an appropriate rating for these games, as their contents are no worse than R-rated films which have long been considered "okay" for ages 17 and up. However, we do agree with you all that that the ESRB is a big joke. Especially now that they're attacking their own customers for content which they obviously don't seem to have a problem with. Why should we the consumers be persecuted for adding something to a game which the ESRB has already demonstrated as perfectly acceptable for titles in the "M" range? San Andreas originally carried a warning for "strong sexual content", and judging by their previous ratings, we would insist that we released the "Hot Coffee" mod well within the ESRB's (apparently broken) guidelines.

Best Regards,
the administration of gtagarage.com
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Honestly, are these people 15 years old. Can't they see the big picture going on here? All that letter does is give the politicians more ammo to scrap the ESRB and put in place a govenmental control board that will probably be made of people believe that video games are only played by children in elementary school.
 
Pudding Tame said:
All that letter does is give the politicians more ammo to scrap the ESRB and put in place a govenmental control board that will probably be made of people believe that video games are only played by children in elementary school.
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...or maybe will help to break this misconception and help the acceptance or mature rated games?
 
Pudding Tame said:
Honestly, are these people 15 years old. Can't they see the big picture going on here? All that letter does is give the politicians more ammo to scrap the ESRB and put in place a govenmental control board that will probably be made of people believe that video games are only played by children in elementary school.
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This coming from a guy whose avatar shows Master Chief humping a crate.
 
Pudding Tame said:
Honestly, are these people 15 years old. Can't they see the big picture going on here? All that letter does is give the politicians more ammo to scrap the ESRB and put in place a govenmental control board that will probably be made of people believe that video games are only played by children in elementary school.
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If I had to choose a scapegoat, it'd be the jagoffs at the ESRB. I'd much rather see them go down than see people start bounty hunting the modding community. I couldn't imagine playing Oblivion sans mods.

I'd like to see the MPAA expanded to include games in its breadth. That way, games would be held to the same standards and receive similar ratings. That makes it less confusing for the parent, but at the same time a game like San Andreas (which is far tamer than most mobster movies) would get by with a solid R rating.
 
Wyzdom said:
...or maybe will help to break this misconception and help the acceptance or mature rated games?
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I'm sorry but if I want to use a game that breaks the misconception the games are only for kids I'd more likely use a Hideo Kojima game rather than a couple games whose only selling points are titties.

One of the problems when it comes to sex and videogames is that it's a mature subjet that has never been tackled maturely in this industry. If it ever were then we would have some ammo against criticism.

Besides this letter was less a defense for mature games than a fuck you to the ESRB for saying that it's their fault this happened. Which it is partly(though least responisble) along with Rock* and the ESRB.

The problem I have with this is between the ESRB and what could be the possibilty of a govenment administered ratings board (that could reach Austrailia's level of retardation), I would prefer the ESRB.
 
Juice said:
If I had to choose a scapegoat, it'd be the jagoffs at the ESRB. I'd much rather see them go down than see people start bounty hunting the modding community. I couldn't imagine playing Oblivion sans mods.

I'd like to see the MPAA expanded to include games in its breadth. That way, games would be held to the same standards and receive similar ratings. That makes it less confusing for the parent, but at the same time a game like San Andreas (which is far tamer than most mobster movies) would get by with a solid R rating.
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Yes, let's blame the ESRB for hot coffee.
 
Also you need to understand right now that the industry is being attacked right now, not by what games are, but by what they could become through modding. Which is insane.
 
Pudding Tame said:
I'm sorry but if I want to use a game that breaks the misconception the games are only for kids I'd more likely use a Hideo Kojima game rather than a couple games whose only selling points are titties.

One of the problems when it comes to sex and videogames is that it's a mature subjet that has never been tackled maturely in this industry. If it ever were then we would have some ammo against criticism.

Besides this letter was less a defense for mature games than a fuck you to the ESRB for saying that it's their fault this happened. Which it is partly(though least responisble) along with Rock* and the ESRB.

The problem I have with this is between the ESRB and what could be the possibilty of a govenment administered ratings board (that could reach Austrailia's level of retardation), I would prefer the ESRB.
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I agree with this. I wouldn't choose GTA to break the misconceptions.
There's also some other problems related to all this that doesn't help: Stores playing politicians and discriminating AO rating. I'm wondering if it's not even worse than retarded Australian politicians.
 
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