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[Piecake]

That's them talking about the incredible amount of grinding required to get dungeon sets (especially with the diminishing returns system), not the progression system itself that caps out at level 80 exotics (and then legendaries, but who cares about those?).

Edit: Seriously, did you read the posts you quoted? Because that doesn't say anything like what you want to imagine they're saying.

Im glad that they are aware that the grinding involved in geting a full set of dungeon gear is absolutely ridiculous. One or two pieces is fine, but what iff you want all 6 plus the weapon? youd be in there until you died

Personally, i love how they are handling gear progression. I grew to hate how WoW did it. Grinding for better and better stats on gear and you looking like everyone else in your class wsnt fun.

Im glad i get the option of going after the gear that i like the best and i dont care if it has a statstical advantage or not.

Their progression -> reward system overall is pretty bad. I know that proper balance needs a shitload of testing, but like I've said before, they give away a lot for almost nothing early on, then they ramp it up so steeply that you are wondering if this is even the same game. They want to discourage grind too, but many rewards are only achieved through grind, so there's a heavy disconnect there.

It will take time, but hopefully it will get there.

I like that the legendaries are the biggest fucking grind known to man. I will never get one, but its nice to see that these will actually be legendary.

Dungeon armor, on the other hand, should not be such an obscene grind.

right now, their system encourages people running the one or two dungeons that they want gear from continously and ignore the rest (i mean, come on, you cant and dont want to run dungeons constantly). that, i think, is a huge mistake. They should encourage people to play as many dungeons as possible since doing so means playing with as many people as possible

 

[Shambles]

TP is back up. It's crazy how gem price keeps going up and up and up and up. I've been waiting for almost a week now waiting to buy a bank expansion since the price never goes down. Hopefully things settle down by tomrrow because weekends always seem like a price hike for gems.

 

[Ferrio]

I'm just kinda peeved that I have to PvE *alot* if it want to WvW... pretty crappy IMO.

 

[etiolate]

I'm just kinda peeved that I have to PvE *alot* if it want to WvW... pretty crappy IMO.

To get the exotic gear?

 

[Ferrio]

To get the exotic gear?

Yes, money for repairs, and any seige weapons I purchase.

 

[Piecake]

Yes, money for repairs, and any seige weapons I purchase.

Id think youd at least cover the repair costs by events. I dont WvW much, but when i do, i usually come out richer

 

[Ferrio]

Id think youd at least cover the repair costs by events. I dont WvW much, but when i do, i usually come out richer

Really matters if it's stalemating or not. Not to mention they cut out a source of income (dolyak guarding).

 

[Levyne]

Hmm...put in a buy order for something for 5g when the TP was slow/down. Now I log in, go to the "items ive bought" list, and it shows what I put in an order for. However, I have no option to pick up the item. It ate my money and didn't complete a full transaction....

Darn it...

 

[etiolate]

Yeah I think Staff is definitely better, since a lot of the buffs/debuffs are useful irrespective of your condition damage on gear, which is pretty much zero for sword/sword. Plus Staff is just a good overall defensive weapon.

Sword/Sword also has the benefit of dealing out pretty damn good damage while tanking.

Yes, the damage is actually some of the highest of any mes weapon. The Swordsman Phantasm gets to some crazy damage numbers with a lot of Power stacked.

I was doing a version of this where I was running Signet of Dom and Mantra of Distraction, and pretty much locking out a target inbetween Blurred Frenzies with all the dazes and stuns.

 

[Piecake]

Really matters if it's stalemating or not. Not to mention they cut out a major source of income in WvW (dolyak guarding).

Dolyaks? or event nerf? havent played it since the event nerf

 

[01DragonFly]

Hmm...put in a buy order for something for 5g when the TP was slow/down. Now I log in, go to the "items ive bought" list, and it shows what I put in an order for. However, I have no option to pick up the item. It ate my money and didn't complete a full transaction....

Darn it...

did you go to a black lion trader? some times it does that.

 

[Levyne]

did you go to a black lion trader? some times it does that.

Yeah, tried

 

[inky]

I like that the legendaries are the biggest fucking grind known to man. I will never get one, but its nice to see that these will actually be legendary.

Dungeon armor, on the other hand, should not be such an obscene grind.

right now, their system encourages people running the one or two dungeons that they want gear from continously and ignore the rest (i mean, come on, you cant and dont want to run dungeons constantly). that, i think, is a huge mistake. They should encourage people to play as many dungeons as possible since doing so means playing with as many people as possible

Agreed, I'm not even talking about legendaries. While they seem a little excessive to me, I think it's good for the game to have long term goals that you can achieve by the accumulation of all the things you'll be doing in an extended period of time, and not necessarily by doing 1 thing over and over.

Event rewards compared to the time you spend on them (especially when some are almost instant and some chain for like 1 hour or more) is what bothers me the most in addition to dungeons of course.

Chest rewards are almost 100% useless. I'm not talking about giving out rares and exotics every time, because then you would grind chests, but more situational stuff. I like the chests that give out potions that help for a specific type of enemy and I want to see more of that. I'd love to see crafting materials or better amounts of gold given out as well. Maybe boosters, bags of currency like karma, heck, why not super rare 50/100 gem drops or something useful like that, etc. Right now all you get is 3-5 shitty blues, maybe 1 totally useless green and 50c.

 

[etiolate]

Id think youd at least cover the repair costs by events. I dont WvW much, but when i do, i usually come out richer

I have had the same experience. I normally come out richer from WvWvW and Dungeons, while making slow progress through basic PVE.

Though loot drops in Straights of Devastation seem much higher than the rest of the game.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

Hey Tekno, could you add the mumble info to the new OP? The second post in the old thread can't be quoted anymore since the thread is locked.

I see that Tekno added the info. Tekno, is there any way you can hide the mumble info in email tags so it's not public to non-members?

 

[Piecake]

Agreed, I'm not even talking about legendaries. While they seem a little excessive to me, I think it's good for the game to have long term goals that you can achieve by the accumulation of all the things you'll be doing in an extended period of time, and not necessarily by doing 1 thing over and over.

Event rewards compared to the time you spend on them (especially when some are almost instant and some chain for like 1 hour or more) is what bothers me the most in addition to dungeons of course.

Chest rewards are almost 100% useless. I'm not talking about giving out rares and exotics every time, because then you would grind chests, but more situational stuff. I like the chests that give out potions that help for a specific type of enemy and I want to see more of that. I'd love to see crafting materials or better amounts of gold given out as well. Maybe boosters, bags of currency like karma, heck, why not super rare 50/100 gem drops or something useful like that, etc. Right now all you get is 3-5 shitty blues, maybe 1 totally useless green and 50c.

crafting mats would be real sweet. I would love to see some Orriculm ore (or however you spell it) and some potent blood in a chest. Im fine with leaving boosters to the black lion chests, but all the rest sound great. And i agree, chests right now are rather boring since you get worthless blues 90% of the time

 

[Xiaoki]

The game is not for you, man!

Says who? You? You are going to tell me what kind of game I should play? Whats next? You're going to tell me what kind of food I should eat? What kind of clothes I should wear?

Why should I listen to someone like you when they tell me how I should think?

...Okay? The dungeon system /=/ the entire progression system that works really well. ArenaNet does not want to change that and all developers go through tweaks to their current systems. It doesn't prove anything about your statement on how the progression system conflicts with MMO design

But it does conflict with what Beepos said progression should be.

Beepos said "GW1 where the progression was the challenge of completing the missions and making new builds with skills.".

GW2 doesnt have missions, it has dungeons. And ArenaNet agrees that the challenge of completing the dungeons isnt enough. People need to rewarded with gear and whatever else for their time.
In an MMORPG people will only do something if they are rewarded for it in some way.

The skill builds part Im not sure of. The skill system in GW1 is completely different than the skill system in GW2. So, not only does this not apply to MMORPGs in general it doesnt even apply to GW2.

GW1 had over a thousand skills to choose from after you unlocked them. In GW2 you have like 30 skills to choose from and 2 weapon sets of 5 skills.
Also, in GW1 you had a secondary profession, which is not in GW2.

So, GW2 will do things differently than other MMORPGs, but Beepos was wrong on both counts when comparing progression activities to GW1.

 

[speedpop]

Any other sword/sword mesmer out there for PvE? I honestly feel it may be the best tank in the game. 2s evasion every 8 sec, a block skill that can be converted into an interrupt, two leap finishers to combo a bunch of different armor spells. This isn't even counting shatter distortion, utility skills or traits, particularly precision's vigor on crit and toughness' 3% reduced dmg per active illusion. In dungeons, I often find I am always the last one standing.

Guardian probably edges out, but mesmer tanks might be right up there with them.

I use Sword & Sword / Staff but I feel that my Mesmer is still quite low in levels to soup it up. I enjoy it a lot, however.

 

[Piecake]

Says who? You? You are going to tell me what kind of game I should play? Whats next? You're going to tell me what kind of food I should eat? What kind of clothes I should wear?

Why should I listen to someone like you when they tell me how I should think?




But it does conflict with what Beepos said progression should be.

Beepos said "GW1 where the progression was the challenge of completing the missions and making new builds with skills.".

GW2 doesnt have missions, it has dungeons. And ArenaNet agrees that the challenge of completing the dungeons isnt enough. People need to rewarded with gear and whatever else for their time.
In an MMORPG people will only do something if they are rewarded for it in some way.

The skill builds part Im not sure of. The skill system in GW1 is completely different than the skill system in GW2. So, not only does this not apply to MMORPGs in general it doesnt even apply to GW2.

GW1 had over a thousand skills to choose from after you unlocked them. In GW2 you have like 30 skills to choose from and 2 weapon sets of 5 skills.
Also, in GW1 you had a secondary profession, which is not in GW2.

So, GW2 will do things differently than other MMORPGs, but Beepos was wrong on both counts when comparing progression activities to GW1.

People are rewarded with gear when they complete dungeons. The problem right now is that it takes way too long to get that gear. They either need to reduce the price (bad choice) or make dungeon tokens exchangeable at a loss through the mystic forge (good choice)

And i am pretty sure that beepos was referring to the fact that just like GW1, in GW2 you go after armor skins, not stats. That is the progression in GW2.

 

[Pancakes]

Skimming through the official WvW forums. Why is JQ so salty?

 

[Piecake]

Skimming through the official WvW forums. Why is JQ so salty?

tired of always being in third place?

 

[Shrennin]

But it does conflict with what Beepos said progression should be.

Beepos said "GW1 where the progression was the challenge of completing the missions and making new builds with skills.".

GW2 doesnt have missions, it has dungeons. And ArenaNet agrees that the challenge of completing the dungeons isnt enough. People need to rewarded with gear and whatever else for their time.
In an MMORPG people will only do something if they are rewarded for it in some way.

Um, it does have missions other than the dungeons. The personal story and renown quests are basically that. Heck, dynamic events are essentially dynamic missions. The dungeons are a small, small part of the overall progression system.

The skill builds part Im not sure of. The skill system in GW1 is completely different than the skill system in GW2. So, not only does this not apply to MMORPGs in general it doesnt even apply to GW2.

GW1 had over a thousand skills to choose from after you unlocked them. In GW2 you have like 30 skills to choose from and 2 weapon sets of 5 skills.
Also, in GW1 you had a secondary profession, which is not in GW2.

So, GW2 will do things differently than other MMORPGs, but Beepos was wrong on both counts when comparing progression activities to GW1.

GW1's system could work, it just wouldn't be as good as the current system -- hence why ANet didn't follow through with a lot of the original design. I do think GW2 could do a deck system with swappable skills for each weapon similar to GW1 and be better for it.

 

[Pancakes]

tired of always being in third place?

I guess. But seeing posts like this are just hilarious.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/for...ortsmanship-toward-us-at-SBI/first#post196464

 

[etiolate]

I use Sword & Sword / Staff but I feel that my Mesmer is still quite low in levels to soup it up. I enjoy it a lot, however.

What level are you? I didn't really get into sword-sword/staff until level 50-60s. I don't think it works as well in the early stages because other options kill faster at that point.

 

[Won]

Says who? You? You are going to tell me what kind of game I should play? Whats next? You're going to tell me what kind of food I should eat? What kind of clothes I should wear?

Why should I listen to someone like you when they tell me how I should think?

Sarcasm, man! Just playing off Beepos, who only talks about GW1 and WoW and in some attempt of "video game math" tells you why GW2 isn't for because of that.

 

[etiolate]

The skill system in GW1 isn't completely different from GW2. It's still a deck building system, but like someone said, you now have a starter pack sort of base with the weapon skills. The concept of creating new builds and combos, and finding more ways to play the game are both potential parts of GW2 skill progression.

 

[Beepos]

And i am pretty sure that beepos was referring to the fact that just like GW1, in GW2 you go after armor skins, not stats. That is the progression in GW2.

You got it

It's doesn't have the tradional progression of a MMO which I don't find surprising after playing GW1 for so long.. as I said, it was to be expected. It's not better or worse, it's just a different approach. Some will like it, others will hate it (especially if they are use to other MMOs and want that sense of progression) but it's what Anet want and I'm sure it will be better tweaked as the game continues to be updated.

Sarcasm, man! Just playing off Beepos, who only talks about GW1 and WoW and in some attempt of "video game math" tells you why GW2 isn't for because of that.

Well I don't know what you want me to say to that. There's no video game math you twit, just the truth. If you want more tradional MMO experience it's simply not going to happen (or anytime soon) with GW2. Accept it or move on jeez. Too many people lack reading comprehension.

 

[Kimaka]

TP is back up. It's crazy how gem price keeps going up and up and up and up. I've been waiting for almost a week now waiting to buy a bank expansion since the price never goes down. Hopefully things settle down by tomrrow because weekends always seem like a price hike for gems.

I've been waiting too. I should have bought more gems when they were at the 1g to 350-400 gems rate.

 

[Pancakes]

I've been waiting too. I should have bought more gems when they were at the 1g to 350-400 gems rate.

I'm so happy I bought the bank and inventory expansions when they were cheap. Kinda wish I bought some additional character slots though...

 

[speedpop]

What level are you? I didn't really get into sword-sword/staff until level 50-60s. I don't think it works as well in the early stages because other options kill faster at that point.

Yeah, I am still a lowbie running in the teens. I only ever play him when I play with my partner when she wants to fiddle with her Elementalist. So the survival isn't too bad unless it's a dynamic event, but I usually go around with the Staff during those moments.

 

[inky]

I'm so happy I bought the bank and inventory expansions when they were cheap. Kinda wish I bought some additional character slots though...

I bought 4 bank slots and 3 character slots. I'm poor as fuck in game (only like 5g left) but I still wish I'd bought even more gems.

 

[Xiaoki]

NOPE.

MMORPG should not mean WoW/EQ-like. It's a massively multiplayer online role playing game. That is a pretty broad concept. A game not following that model exactly does not exclude it from being an MMORPG.

And another person mentions WoW?

What is this bizarre obsession with WoW?

 

[Kingbrave]

I just have fun wondering around the world. I know some of you guys have multiple 80's and I started with yall and just now hit 54. I just love running around the zones going oooh whats over there.

Also, Charr should rule the world...fuck you other races!

 

[Scum]

Fuck you, Risen!

 

[Trey]

Fuck Risen!

Pretty accurate.

 

[Zyrusticae]

And another person mentions WoW?

What is this bizarre obsession with WoW?

Are you from this century?

Because it goes without saying that a game that had tens of millions of players and largely defined the genre (and kind of still does) gets mentioned a whole lot. Just like EQ did before WoW.

 

[Xiaoki]

Because EQ is where that model became the norm, and WoW is where it was perfected. Since you're marking a certain style of progression as being crucial to the genre, you're steering the conversation in that direction whether WoW or EQ is your favorite game or not.

You can be a part of this genre without having that exact version of a gear treadmill. Especially when subs aren't involved, since that's the entire purpose of that design over the MUD/early MMO model.

Ah, yes, the "gear treadmill".

The type of progression system where you do content to get gear so you are powerful enough to do the next level of content to get its gear to repeat the process.

That sound about right?

Im starting to understand the basic structure of the "WoW" counter-argument and it sorta looks like this

 

[Finaika]

And another person mentions WoW?

What is this bizarre obsession with WoW?

Mists of Pandaria comes out next week.

 

[Zyrusticae]

I somehow fail to see how any mention of WoW with regards to gear progression is a strawman... considering it's the most readily available example of an alternative to GW2's model.

Unless examples are not allowed? Kind of hard to discuss anything without a frame of reference...

 

[nataku]

Ah, yes, the "gear treadmill".

The type of progression system where you do content to get gear so you are powerful enough to do the next level of content to get its gear to repeat the process.

That sound about right?

Im starting to understand the basic structure of the "WoW" counter-argument and it sorta looks like this

What's your reference for MMORPG progression?

 

[Xiaoki]

I somehow fail to see how any mention of WoW with regards to gear progression is a strawman... considering it's the most readily available example of an alternative to GW2's model.

Unless examples are not allowed? Kind of hard to discuss anything without a frame of reference...

It would seem that the original statement and the frame of reference for my response to that statement has been completely forgotten in some quest to prove me wrong.

I already explained it but that explanation was forgotten as well.

You've spent so much time and energy attacking me that you failed to counter my response as it related to the original statement.

Is that clearer?

 

[Ken]

Are all big MMO OTs like this?

 

[Zyrusticae]

It would seem that the original statement and the frame of reference for my response to that statement has been completely forgotten in some quest to prove me wrong.

I already explained it but that explanation was forgotten as well.

You've spent so much time and energy attacking me that you failed to counter my response as it related to the original statement.

Is that clearer?

Um, you've got the wrong guy. I was just making sure you understood why WoW comes up so much.

No need to be so unnecessarily antagonistic.

 

[Noisy Ninj4]

I just have fun wondering around the world. I know some of you guys have multiple 80's and I started with yall and just now hit 54. I just love running around the zones going oooh whats over there.

Also, Charr should rule the world...fuck you other races!

Can't really agree more with this post. I levelled a bit more quickly, but hey, take the game at your own pace and have fun. That's the point.

 

[Lumination]

I just have fun wondering around the world. I know some of you guys have multiple 80's and I started with yall and just now hit 54. I just love running around the zones going oooh whats over there.

I think this is a key point. If you don't like PvP and you don't like the aspect of exploring for exploring's sake, GW2 might not be the game for you.

 

[Kingbrave]

Can't really agree more with this post. I levelled a bit more quickly, but hey, take the game at your own pace and have fun. That's the point.

The point is at the end of my sword!

But honestly I just don't understand what the hurry is. There is more than enough to do, and goof off. Like in map chat or /say I roleplay as a Charr hatemonger. Yes it's dumb, but it makes me giggle.

 

[Brazil]

Are all big MMO OTs like this?

Yes.

 

[Kingbrave]

Another thing I like is that with no monthly payments I don't feel forced to play. So I can go play some Borderlands or Torchlight and then come back.

 

[thetrin]

Well, it's good to know they realize that dungeon sets have absurd prices right now. I wouldn't mind if they just chopped the costs in half for each piece.

Another thing I like is that with no monthly payments I don't feel forced to play. So I can go play some Borderlands or Torchlight and then come back.

Pretty much! We didn't end up doing a dungeon tonight, and it's no skin off my back. I just played some TL2 and relaxed. Looking forward to running CoE tomorrow, though.

 

[Trey]

Well, it's good to know they realize that dungeon sets have absurd prices right now. I wouldn't mind if they just chopped the costs in half for each piece.



Pretty much! We didn't end up doing a dungeon tonight, and it's no skin off my back. I just played some TL2 and relaxed. Looking forward to running CoE tomorrow, though.

Make dungeon tokens universal after rebalancing the dungeons.