Support NeoGAF

[Mistel]

We'll try better next time?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

So in conclusion: we have taken fan criticism and we will do better next time?

Sounds like it. He's right though. I don't think anybody wants to make a bad game or in the case of Halo 4 a game that doesn't live up to the others. I really don't think 343 did either. He's right though in that most gamers don't realize what goes into making these games. So I hope that 343 really has learned and that Halo 5 blows everyone away. I do because they do have a lot of good folks working there.

 

[TheOddOne]

Sounds like it. He's right though. I don't think anybody wants to make a bad game or in the case of Halo 4 a game that doesn't live up to the others. I really don't think 343 did either. He's right though in that most gamers don't realize what goes into making these games. So I hope that 343 really has learned and that Halo 5 blows everyone away. I do because they do have a lot of good folks working there.

You pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

PsychoRaven pls.

 

[l Zealot l]

Sounds like it. He's right though. I don't think anybody wants to make a bad game or in the case of Halo 4 a game that doesn't live up to the others. I really don't think 343 did either. He's right though in that most gamers don't realize what goes into making these games. So I hope that 343 really has learned and that Halo 5 blows everyone away. I do because they do have a lot of good folks working there.

The same amount of effort that was put into the 4 we got could have been used to make a near perfect version of 4, they didn't need a extra year because they were committed to the decisions that ultimately lead to the 4 we got. As the guy says they took risks, infinity was one that didn't work out.
I hope the next title is great, fans deserve it and 343 deserves a title fans will applaud them for, that will be remembered in a decade and deserve it's own anniversary edition.

This might not make sense I need sleep bad.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The same amount of effort that was put into the 4 we got could have been used to make a near perfect version of 4, they didn't need a extra year or whatever. As the guy says they took risks, infinity was one that didn't work out.
I hope the next title is great, fans deserve it and 343 deserves a title fans will applaud them for, that will be remembered in a decade and deserve it's own anniversary edition.

This might not make sense I need sleep bad.

Um, I don't think if they had just focused on making what many here would consider "better" Halo, they still wouldn't have slammed into a wall development time-wise. Another year would probably have meant better campaign encounters and a less broken Reclaimer level, integration of the terminals, and the TU additions and such actually being in the game for more timely post-launch updates. All of those would have made Halo 4 a superior game regardless of people's dislike of Infinity settings.

 

[l Zealot l]

Um, I don't think if they had just focused on making what many here would consider "better" Halo, they still wouldn't have slammed into a wall development time-wise. Another year would probably have meant better campaign encounters and a less broken Reclaimer level, integration of the terminals, and the TU additions and such actually being in the game for more timely post-launch updates. All of those would have made Halo 4 a superior game regardless of people's dislike of Infinity settings.

I should specify what I meant a bit more. A year would have helped as you said yes. But they were committed to decisions like infinity slayer which was going to be met negatively even if it had a extra year.
As I said tired, the mind is weak.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Um, I don't think if they had just focused on making what many here would consider "better" Halo, they still wouldn't have slammed into a wall development time-wise. Another year would probably have meant better campaign encounters and a less broken Reclaimer level, integration of the terminals, and the TU additions and such actually being in the game for more timely post-launch updates. All of those would have made Halo 4 a superior game regardless of people's dislike of Infinity settings.

Exactly. Any developer will tell you and they have said it themselves before you always want more time. Unfortunately a publisher is only going to spend so much money on a project before they feel that the return from it is deemed insufficient and decide to can the project. So they have to get it done at some point. That's why I always laugh when a review gives a game a perfect score because no game no matter how good always has some flaws.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I should specify what I meant a bit more. A year would have helped as you said yes. But they were committed to decisions like infinity slayer which was going to be met negatively even if it had a extra year.
As I said tired, the mind is weak.

And like I said, it took them around six months to really plot an alternate course for people who wanted a more classic style. I expect that would have been far shorter if they weren't literally building in the foundation to actually change those things. By the time Turbo came out the daily peak population had already hit around 30,000--if it had hit at the beginning of the year it would have reached 100,000. The population would probably still have dropped significantly due to extraneous and related factors, but I think response time killed them. Look at the amount of support and updates and playlist management we've been getting since then--it's clear they obviously continue to support their game, better than Bungie towards the end.

Exactly. Any developer will tell you and they have said it themselves before you always want more time. Unfortunately a publisher is only going to spend so much money on a project before they feel that the return from it is deemed insufficient and decide to can the project. So they have to get it done at some point. That's why I always laugh when a review gives a game a perfect score because no game no matter how good always has some flaws.

This is true, but I'd say established AAA sequels have a bit of a different lease of development life than your average game. They're very rarely under threat of outright cancellation unless you are a fundamentally flawed team (and while 343 definitely had staffing issues, there was nothing in the game's development like the clusterfuck of failure that was, say, Bioshock Infinite.)

 

[ElRenoRaven]

And like I said, it took them around six months to really plot an alternate course for people who wanted a more classic style. I expect that would have been far shorter if they weren't literally building in the foundation to actually change those things. By the time Turbo came out the daily peak population had already hit around 30,000--if it had hit at the beginning of the year it would have reached 100,000. The population would probably still have dropped significantly due to extraneous and related factors, but I think response time killed them. Look at the amount of support and updates and playlist management we've been getting since then--it's clear they obviously continue to support their game, better than Bungie towards the end.



This is true, but I'd say established AAA sequels have a bit of a different lease of development life than your average game. They're very rarely under threat of outright cancellation unless you are a fundamentally flawed team (and while 343 definitely had staffing issues, there was nothing in the game's development like the clusterfuck of failure that was, say, Bioshock Infinite.)

True but it has happened before with other huge games. It's more rare yes but it does happen. And hey Bioshock infinite was awesome. While they may not get outright canceled though a publisher can and does though usually set hard deadlines. There of course are exceptions. Duke Nukem Forever anyone? Hell even 10 plus years of development didn't help that game.

 

[Welfare]

I can understand taking risks with new games as a developer, but when those risks are a continuation of elements from the previous game that were controversial, that's when I start to not understand.

Also whenever the topic of past mistakes comes up, it's always, "We know what we did wrong, we'll do better next.", or something to that degree. It doesn't reassure me you know what you did wrong if you keep talking about it without saying what it is you did wrong. But hey, guess we will see E3 or next.

Getting on Halo 4 in a bit. Probably going to be doing Proving Ground.

 

[l Zealot l]

And like I said, it took them around six months to really plot an alternate course for people who wanted a more classic style. I expect that would have been far shorter if they weren't literally building in the foundation to actually change those things. By the time Turbo came out the daily peak population had already hit around 30,000--if it had hit at the beginning of the year it would have reached 100,000. The population would probably still have dropped significantly due to extraneous and related factors, but I think response time killed them. Look at the amount of support and updates and playlist management we've been getting since then--it's clear they obviously continue to support their game, better than Bungie towards the end.

If turbo did come out earlier it could have helped lessen the population exodus . I think the lack of objective game types present in previous games (assault, territories etc) hurt the MP a fair bit as well. I know a lot of my friends went into MP looking for them.
I mentioned a few pages back that I found 343 continued support of 4 impressive, despite the hate it receives.

More dev time is great and all but even if 4 launched at turbo stage I think it still would have been met negatively.

 

[FYC]

Dark Horse is having a ridiculous sale right now. Everything digital is 50% off. You can get an additional 10% off with your order if you're subscribed to the newsletter. Good time to grab what's available of Escalation.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I can understand taking risks with new games as a developer, but when those risks are a continuation of elements from the previous game that were controversial, that's when I start to not understand.

Also whenever the topic of past mistakes comes up, it's always, "We know what we did wrong, we'll do better next.", or something to that degree. It doesn't reassure me you know what you did wrong if you keep talking about it without saying what it is you did wrong. But hey, guess we will see E3 or next.

Getting on Halo 4 in a bit. Probably going to be doing Proving Ground.

I do agree there. Just saying we screwed up and never saying in what ways you did does give one pause. This is one area 343 has to improve. Bungie was never afraid to say oh man we screwed this up or that up. That's one reason they have always gotten the respect they have.

Dark Horse is having a ridiculous sale right now. Everything digital is 50% off. You can get an additional 10% off with your order if you're subscribed to the newsletter. Good time to grab what's available of Escalation.

That would be a good deal if you could read their digital stuff offline but you can't. Not that I've seen anyway.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Halo 4 launched with a myriad of issues and terrible design choices one week before the largest multiplayer franchise on the planet.

Terrible decisions all around. Great people, love the franchise, but if Halo 4 released a year later in the same time frame as a new CoD, the same thing would've happened. We would've received a working fileshare at launch and some better encounters, sure, but the multiplayer also probably would've been way more CoDified than what we got at launch too. Remember those killcams we had but seemed like they never got working? I'm guessing there were many more perks (we got them in DLC anyway), possibly other AA's (we saw the cut AA's like Teleport and that other one), etc. in the works that would've made Halo 4 even less like Halo than what we received at launch.

So looking at it that way, I'm glad they got Halo 4 out of the way because honestly.. this needed to happen. This franchise needed Halo 4 because the devs and fans now realize that this is a game that should've always stuck to what made it strong and built upon that instead of copying something else or by making the game slower/easier/watered down to appeal to a crowd that would never stick around for the long haul anyway.

Also, they probably wouldn't have the new hires they have now, especially the people on the test team. So IMO, Halo 4 releasing when it did was for the best. They know what we want, we know that they know what we want, they want us to want what they create, so let's hope we get a Halo that starts bringing "Halo killers" back to the industry.

 

[The Flash]

I'll always respect the fact that 343 took risks and did something different. It didn't work out as well as we all would have liked but at least they tried. Too many other developers just stick with the same formula because it's safe. I don't want safe decisions. I want bold and creative decisions. With the team they have now and with the lessons they learned from H4, I bet H5 will be truly awesome Halo game.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I do agree there. Just saying we screwed up and never saying in what ways you did does give one pause. This is one area 343 has to improve. Bungie was never afraid to say oh man we screwed this up or that up. That's one reason they have always gotten the respect they have.



That would be a good deal if you could read their digital stuff offline but you can't. Not that I've seen anyway.

Yes you can. That's where I've been reading everything I've purchased.

 

[l Zealot l]

Halo 4 launched with a myriad of issues and terrible design choices one week before the largest multiplayer franchise on the planet.

Terrible decisions all around. Great people, love the franchise, but if Halo 4 released a year later in the same time frame as a new CoD, the same thing would've happened. We would've received a working fileshare at launch and some better encounters, sure, but the multiplayer also probably would've been way more CoDified than what we got at launch too. Remember those killcams we had but seemed like they never got working? I'm guessing there were many more perks (we got them in DLC anyway), possibly other AA's (we saw the cut AA's like Teleport and that other one), etc. in the works that would've made Halo 4 even less like Halo than what we received at launch.

So looking at it that way, I'm glad they got Halo 4 out of the way because honestly.. this needed to happen. This franchise needed Halo 4 because the devs and fans now realize that this is a game that should've always stuck to what made it strong and built upon that instead of copying something else or by making the game slower/easier/watered down to appeal to a crowd that would never stick around for the long haul

Pretty much what I was getting at above, but was misunderstood . MP could have been more refined to the point of the turbo update if more dev time was given. But when working with a game type like infinity where 4 snipers can be on a map at any given time plus AAs, it's going to be hated by a majority of players.

They had a image of what they wanted in 4 they went for it. A year could have smoothed out the bumps but was never going to get rid of the cracks.

 

[Madness]

Honestly, looking back, Halo 4 should have just released in 2013 as a current gen/next gen title. Would have given more incentive to buy Xbox One, a lot of the problems with development could have been ironed out, plus, even if the game ended up having a short lifespan, there would still be people playing more frequently up to Halo 2 Anniversary/Halo for Xbox One launch.

Then again, not a dev, can't really say extra time would have done much. Sometimes the crunch and desperation to finish gets the job done too, sort of like how you can knock out a 15 page essay 6 hours before it's due, but not work on it the 3 weeks before.

Going forward, I think they've gotten a lot of new talent, hired some key people with regards to ranks/competitiveness/e-sports. For 343, launch night, launch week, and launch month will be key. There should be ZERO major problems. All playlists they want functional, no cut features to be added in later etc.

 

[Poker Face]

Everyone better enjoy H2A, because that twitter essay doesn't make me feel any better about Halo 5.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Honestly, looking back, Halo 4 should have just released in 2013 as a current gen/next gen title. Would have given more incentive to buy Xbox One, a lot of the problems with development could have been ironed out, plus, even if the game ended up having a short lifespan, there would still be people playing more frequently up to Halo 2 Anniversary/Halo for Xbox One launch.

Can't speak for anyone else but if the first next gen Halo title was Halo 4, I would've been much more disappointed than I was with Halo 4 on 360.

Then again, not a dev, can't really say extra time would have done much. Sometimes the crunch and desperation to finish gets the job done too, sort of like how you can knock out a 15 page essay 6 hours before it's due, but not work on it the 3 weeks before.

lmfao too true

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Yes you can. That's where I've been reading everything I've purchased.

Really? When I looked I couldn't find anyway to read it offline. I may have to take a closer look then. I'll be damned. You can with the app for android etc. Ok so purchased the escalation comics then. I like the app too. It works like kindle does in that I can download them to read offline. Very cool. I hadn't even played with the app.

 

[op_ivy]

Everyone better enjoy H2A, because that twitter essay doesn't make me feel any better about Halo 5.

if anything, halo 2 online to me means that 343 is even more available to make changes with halo 5. h2a will offer the traditional halo, halo 5 can expand and try new things (hopefully with halo 4's mistakes in mind).

 

[Orochinagis]

Brad Welch (Design Director for Halo 4's Infinity section) said some things on twitter.

"We know how you want halo to be made but we will do in our way anyway"

 

[Gabotron ES]

"We know how you want halo to be made but we will do in our way anyway"

That's what I got from it, really worried.

I don't think I'd take another halo game where each feature is basically a major downgrade from the last one.

Theater is still broken and I still dunno what where they thinking when designing

Spoiler

outsourcing

H4's forge.

 

[Poker Face]

if anything, halo 2 online to me means that 343 is even more available to make changes with halo 5. h2a will offer the traditional halo, halo 5 can expand and try new things (hopefully with halo 4's mistakes in mind).

Depends what 343 sees as mistakes. They really haven't said anything of substance, so for all we know they think perks/AAs/etc are fine, they just need an overhaul.

 

[NobleGundam]

Brad Welch (Design Director for Halo 4's Infinity section) said some things on twitter.

I'd wish more of 343 expressed how Brad has over Twitter or through a Bulletin.

 

[Steelyuhas]

You miss pictures more than Plywood.

Straight up dissed Plywood. You cold, son. COLD.

Emilia is above all else.

Plywood understands this. You clearly do not.

 

[TheOddOne]

Emilia is above all else.

Plywood understands this. You clearly do not.

 

[Ryaaan14]

So Halo 5 is already doomed?

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

Worst case scenario, Halo Gaf is welcome to migrate to Jurassic Park/World Gaf.

But I dunno, I am still excited for Halo's future.

 

[Nowise10]

So if they heard about the feedback, why did they respond by putting more DLC perks into Halo 4, that add even more random and BS into the game.

 

[Welfare]

So if they heard about the feedback, why did they respond by putting more DLC perks into Halo 4, that add even more random and BS into the game.

Might as well please the majority that still play your game. Next game is a different story.

On Halo 4, does Rumble Pit CSR even work? Getting pretty random match-ups here.

 

[Orochinagis]

So if they heard about the feedback, why did they respond by putting more DLC perks into Halo 4, that add even more random and BS into the game.

Why would they do that? They spend resources in making the game to just ignore what they did and cut it from the game so instead let them be to learn about how much the sandbox could be affected. I really hope they get the correct feedback and learn from this experience.

DLC is always planned before the game release, remember how bungie reacted about gamestop armor exclusive in halo reach?

 

[Chettlar]

So if they heard about the feedback, why did they respond by putting more DLC perks into Halo 4, that add even more random and BS into the game.

As I said in the Halo community thread, I suddenly had a change of heart on this when I realized something.

No matter how much they might want to make Halo 5 more like CE, 2, and 3 in regards to multiplayer, it isn't a good idea to make Halo 4 like that. Halo 4 is VERY different from those other games, and if you try to force it to be like them, you'll come up with this ugly, messed up half-breeds.

In every. single. example. that I can think of in regards to games, half-breed games DO NOT WORK. EVER. Halo 4 itself was kind of a half-breed between arena and twitch shooters. Didn't work very well.

They're best bet is to work on making Halo 4 the best that it can be. And according to people who've played it on and off since day one, they've done a great job of that.

Plus, as was said, all these things take an extremely long time to come out, some since Halo 4 went gold. You can't just magically change it back to good old classic Halo in a few weeks.

 

[Havoc2049]

Might as well please the majority that still play your game. Next game is a different story.

On Halo 4, does Rumble Pit CSR even work? Getting pretty random match-ups here.

I find that the smaller the population is on a game type, the less CSR works and you will be placed with who is available. Better than waiting forever. I love Rumble Pit, but it doesn't seem to be as popular as it was during the Halo 2 and Halo 3 days.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

I agree. Loved me some Reach multi. Never understood the hate. I miss armour lock!

Hire this guy

 

[NobleGundam]

It hurts knowing 343 ignored this with Halo 4 and we might not see from them that'll be any better unless they pull it together.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=808462

 

[Tawpgun]

Brad Welch said being salty is fine. Halogaf is saved!

Halo 4 sux!!!!

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Might as well please the majority that still play your game. Next game is a different story.

On Halo 4, does Rumble Pit CSR even work? Getting pretty random match-ups here.

I think we'd all be surprised just how many of those players left are Halo fans that need to satisfy that itch. Just look at how several people in this thread still play Halo 4, yet want nothing to do with perks in a Halo game.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Really? When I looked I couldn't find anyway to read it offline. I may have to take a closer look then. I'll be damned. You can with the app for android etc. Ok so purchased the escalation comics then. I like the app too. It works like kindle does in that I can download them to read offline. Very cool. I hadn't even played with the app.

Go to https://digital.darkhorse.com, log in, and on the top nav there should be a "My collection (number)" there, and a big bunch of "READ" buttons after you click it.

 

[YourExWife]

Take less chances with multiplayer and more with campaign.

All I need for Halo 5 multiplayer is a sandbox without the clutter, precise responsivness and movement like in Titanfall, LOCKED 60fps, and the idea that multiplayer maps need to tell a story has gotta go.

Add to that, clean maps without random stupid geometry.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Take less chances with multiplayer and more with campaign.

All I need for Halo 5 multiplayer is a sandbox without the clutter, precise responsivness and movement like in Titanfall, LOCKED 60fps, and the idea that multiplayer maps need to tell a story has gotta go.

Why?

How did the Infinity scenario actually harm your enjoyment of the game? Take out perks and ordnance--what was wrong with framing the multiplayer in that manner and making it make a little more sense?

 

[II SHABUTIE II]

Add to that, clean maps without random stupid geometry.

Lockout/Blackout being the perfect example.

 

[NobleGundam]

Why?

How did the Infinity scenario actually harm your enjoyment of the game? Take out perks and ordnance--what was wrong with framing the multiplayer in that manner and making it make a little more sense?

The real question is which idea came first to implement them and influence the other?

 

[Chettlar]

Why?

How did the Infinity scenario actually harm your enjoyment of the game? Take out perks and ordnance--what was wrong with framing the multiplayer in that manner and making it make a little more sense?

Well, for one thing it didn't let us play as elites anymore.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Go to https://digital.darkhorse.com, log in, and on the top nav there should be a "My collection (number)" there, and a big bunch of "READ" buttons after you click it.

That's not offline. That's reading them online. That's what I don't like. Luckily the apps let you read them offline. So I totally took advantage of the sale.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Well, for one thing it didn't let us play as elites anymore.

Speaking of Elites, if default Reach controlled like Elites it would've played so much better.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Speaking of Elites, if default Reach controlled like Elites it would've played so much better.

But Elite Slayer in Reach sucks. I don't understand.

Do the Elites move faster and jump higher? I doubt they strafe any better.

 

[blamite]

Speaking of Elites, if default Reach controlled like Elites it would've played so much better.

Haha, I remember thinking the same exact thing back in the beta. Everyone was hating the slow movement and low jumps (that ledge on Powerhouse says hi), and then Invasion comes out and people start playing as elites and it's like, "holy shit, this is how the Spartans should control!"

Elite slayer sucked though, for reasons completely unrelated to base movement.

 

[l Zealot l]

Speaking of Elites, if default Reach controlled like Elites it would've played so much better.

So slightly faster movement, higher jumping.
Shields and health system as well?

OT, but we already are anyway.
Hornet or Falcon for you guys?