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Halo 4 |OT2| TURBO

M

Madness

Member
iMax said:
apparently welcometoneogaf.gif
Click to expand...

Haha nothing to do with NeoGAF and I don't think anyone was "hostile". You're coming to a community who has been playing Halo games for almost 14 years now. Many longtime members don't really post here much anymore since they don't really play the games.

But come on. Just honestly look at your last 8 posts here and then say, "oh I don't really want ADS". You've basically said you want it, and that you'd enjoy it in so many words.

Then you keep bringing up Halo 4 as some metric of change in the community. Yes the game was vastly different than its previous iterations. What happened? Oh, after a few months it started to completely plummet in playerbase until it was barely in the top 15 games played on Xbox Live within launch year. And all those changes you love, if you notice, you'll see 343 actually started to take back. They added more playlists with set loadouts, brought back respawn times, started to have set on map weapons again.

The one thing you've completely failed to see, despite saying you've played the hell out of the old games is, that Reach and Halo 4 were not liked by the larger Halo community as well as the preceding games. I don't know why you keep equating ADS with Halo 4 as change. They didn't add ADS in Halo 4. If or when they decide to add ADS, believe me, they'll lose more players forever than gain.

It's not hostility to have charged arguments. That's the point here. You dodged the question about what ADS will add, saying it's subjective. And finally you say it adds value and variety to the weaponry. What does that even mean? How does ADS add value to a needler or an AR? How does it add variety? ADS is a shooting mechanic in that it limits your field of view and movement so that you can fire more accurately as opposed to hip firing.

As for the playerbase having a hardcore playlist to keep the classic community thriving. They've tried that, it doesn't work. Infinity slayer Halo and classic Halo are so different that the multiplayer needs to only feature one of the two styles, otherwise one inevitably loses out. In Halo 4, that was classic Halo because at launch, I don't think they even had a proper non-Infinity playlist and even removed it for a while to tweak it. By the time it came back, the player base dwindled.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Prinz Eugn said:
Aim-Down Sights (ADS) does not belong in Halo. The definitive guide (work in progress).

Essentially Aim-Down Sights is shorthand for gameplay mechanic in shooters where there are two discrete aiming modes: Aiming Down Sights (ADS) and Hipfire. This is the de facto standard for modern military themed shooters like Call of Duty and Battlefield. By default, the player is in hipfire mode, which allows the player to look around quickly but generally not fire the weapon accurately. To fire accurately, you need to enter ADS which allows for more precise aiming by lowering the effective sensitivity of the controls, usually both the "look" stick and the "move" stick. This is fine for some games built around it. But Halo is not one of those games.

Halo gameplay (and this is pretty much all from a multiplayer perspective) is built around a golden triangle, where using traditional weapons is still very important but also where grenades and melee are vital to success. Halo also has longer kill times in general which make tracking other players in a battle more important since you have to apply damage to them over a longer period of time.

Since there is no real ADS barrier to aiming, players are more mobile while they fight, making maneuver during a firefight important. You can duck behind a pillar or jump to throw off a burst. But most importantly in my opinion, the lack of ADS means you can smoothly transition to other parts of the "triangle" instantly. There is no artificial choice between aiming your gun accurately and doing anything else. You can throw a nade at a wall to explode under a player chasing you and whip around and immediately start pouring bullets into his or her face and finish them off with a punch to the throat without having to enter what amounts to "shoot gun mode".

Halo-style, there are way more diverse choices available to players in most situations, and they aren't automatically screwed if they turn a corner and an opposing player is already ADS'd in down the hallway. Battles are decided more often by skillful use of movement, consistent aim over time, and exploitation of other parts of the triangle than first-shot accuracy. The lack of ADS also means that since players aim isn't boosted at medium or long ranges, they have an incentive to close the range where other parts of the triangle shine. That makes for more diverse and interesting encounters. This is fun (tm). If you do not find this fun, Halo is not your game.

You might hear people say Halo games already have ADS. Not really, in true ADS games the vast majority of shooting encounters involve ADS. In Halo zoom, even if available on the equipped weapon (which you cannot assume), is useful only in a subset of long-range encounters and is more clearly disadvantageous in short-range encounters (since long kill times require you to keep on-target longer).

People have suggested making ADS optional or purely cosmetic... Why? There is no point to have a feature that does not affect gameplay (which I'm not sure is even possible since it's at the very least going to mess with your view) but removes a button that could be used for something actually interesting.

----------

It's late, I'm tired, will re-read and prolly edit tomorrow, feedback welcome. I will be linking back to this whenever someone brings up how Halo should be Call of Duty but with power suits (and aren't they fucking making that already?).
Click to expand...

Didn't see this post earlier. EXACTLY everything I had to say. The whole thing about moving among the parts of the golden triangle quickly and smoothly opening up more options allowing for more creative, free play is the thing I tried to focus on in my post about this (I think it was in this thread).

(Yes I know Eugn has me on ignore. Doesn't mean I can't congratulate him on a good post for others to see).
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Prinz Eugn said:
Subjective doesn't mean "unexplainable". What do you like about it? Why do you think it would be fun in a Halo game?

I somehow wrote several paragraphs explaining in detail why I think ADS would change Halo gameplay I consider enjoyable, so surely you can muster up a few words about how you think it would enhance it. It might indeed boil down to you enjoying ADS more than exploiting the golden triangle, and that's okay I guess. I would suggest you got play any of the other 6,000 games that play that way instead of suggesting Halo become one of them, however.

But as long as you refrain from explaining your ideas, it makes your subjective opinion look objectively poorly thought-out.
Click to expand...

Just accept that people can't explain why they say or do the things they do. People mention all the time about sprint making maps larger this, sprint ruining gameplay that, but I have still yet to receive a legitimate explanation as to why we can have this in Murder Miners, but not even anything remotely similar in Halo:

http://a.pomf.se/qtjsko.webm

The maps don't have to be made significantly larger to account for sprint, nor does movement speed have to take a significant hit because of its inclusion. In reality, sprint helps with map traversal, especially in Big Team, so people completely dismissing any form of sprint is only setting them up for disappointment for its inevitable inclusion in Halo 5.

FACT: Murder Miners does it well.
QUESTION: Why can't Halo?
REALITY: Expect sprint in Halo 5.

^This is my argument. What is so different about Murder Miners that Halo can't pull off similar mechanics? Not to mention a 3sk Pistol and a 4sk BR.

Maybe one day.
/broken_record
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Madness said:
Haha nothing to do with NeoGAF and I don't think anyone was "hostile". You're coming to a community who has been playing Halo games for almost 14 years now. Many longtime members don't really post here much anymore since they don't really play the games.

But come on. Just honestly look at your last 8 posts here and then say, "oh I don't really want ADS". You've basically said you want it, and that you'd enjoy it in so many words.

Then you keep bringing up Halo 4 as some metric of change in the community. Yes the game was vastly different than its previous iterations. What happened? Oh, after a few months it started to completely plummet in playerbase until it was barely in the top 15 games played on Xbox Live within launch year. And all those changes you love, if you notice, you'll see 343 actually started to take back. They added more playlists with set loadouts, brought back respawn times, started to have set on map weapons again.

The one thing you've completely failed to see, despite saying you've played the hell out of the old games is, that Reach and Halo 4 were not liked by the larger Halo community as well as the preceding games. I don't know why you keep equating ADS with Halo 4 as change. They didn't add ADS in Halo 4. If or when they decide to add ADS, believe me, they'll lose more players forever than gain.

It's not hostility to have charged arguments. That's the point here. You dodged the question about what ADS will add, saying it's subjective. And finally you say it adds value and variety to the weaponry. What does that even mean? How does ADS add value to a needler or an AR? How does it add variety? ADS is a shooting mechanic in that it limits your field of view and movement so that you can fire more accurately as opposed to hip firing.

As for the playerbase having a hardcore playlist to keep the classic community thriving. They've tried that, it doesn't work. Infinity slayer Halo and classic Halo are so different that the multiplayer needs to only feature one of the two styles, otherwise one inevitably loses out. In Halo 4, that was classic Halo because at launch, I don't think they even had a proper non-Infinity playlist and even removed it for a while to tweak it. By the time it came back, the player base dwindled.
Click to expand...

Part of iMax's problem is he's falling into the classic "We should make things new and different because new and different is good!" with complete disregard for why new and different is good. Somethings are new and different and very, very bad. Adding magic and vampire clowns that expload when they see you and random timer deaths that kill everybody and mech's and birds that randomly come in and poop bombs on you and worst of all hamburger guns may all be new and different and add variety to Halo, but how the hell does that make it a good idea to implement them into it?

Variety is NOT always good, so thus using it as something to back up your argument that a thing is good because it has variety is faulty.


And listen, iMax, you are right that HaloGAF can be hostile, and sometimes downright vicious (there's a reason it got banned to the OT and later banned completely to E3), but that has nothing to do with this instance. Many of the replies to you on this matter have been very good, well-reasoned arguments. Prinz Eugn's post, which was in part to you, is a great example.

You just have a really bad opinion and keep pushing it --- and then turning around and saying that you're not here to argue. Classic, so classic.
 
W

wwm0nkey

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Just accept that people can't explain why they say or do the things they do. People mention all the time about sprint making maps larger this, sprint ruining gameplay that, but I have still yet to receive a legitimate explanation as to why we can have this in Murder Miners, but not even anything remotely similar in Halo:

http://a.pomf.se/qtjsko.webm

The maps don't have to be made significantly larger to account for sprint, nor does movement speed have to take a significant hit because of its inclusion. In reality, sprint helps with map traversal, especially in Big Team, so people completely dismissing any form of sprint is only setting them up for disappointment for its inevitable inclusion in Halo 5.

FACT: Murder Miners does it well.
QUESTION: Why can't Halo?
REALITY: Expect sprint in Halo 5.

^This is my argument. What is so different about Murder Miners that Halo can't pull off similar mechanics? Not to mention a 3sk Pistol and a 4sk BR.

Maybe one day.
/broken_record
Click to expand...

Works in MM but I would VASTLY prefer Thrust/Dash in Halo rather than sprint.
 
K

Karl2177

Member
So GAF mobile is a sack of shit. I tried to make at least 3 posts this morning, but none of them went through, so here goes on desktop...

Firstly, Halo was great when movement wasn't sacrificed for something else. In CE and 2, I can't recall anytime when the player is forced to not move or move slowly. Halo 3 it only occurs in vehicle EMP(which I can fully understand, although on certain maps there were too many PPs/Power Drains). Reach and 4, though, the player sacrifices certain movements at spawn. Most games with ADS use the mechanic as a balancing tool. The player sacrifices movement for greater accuracy; they sacrifice greater accuracy for movement. Halo sets itself apart by not having an accuracy and movement handicap. This has been covered though.

Next up, there's actually balance issues with ADS. Halo's sandbox since Halo 3 has been emphasizing certain engagement ranges for certain weapons, which Reach putting each weapon into a firm role. ADS for longer range guns makes a bit of sense, because the player wants better accuracy from afar. These longer range guns are generally semi-automatic guns that have a "cooldown" period before they can be fired again. If ADS was placed on all guns for better accuracy, what is keeping me from SAW-ing across Containment? If a weapon is intended to be shorter range, then it shouldn't have something to make it more precise. The binoculars are used to allow for a slight zoom when the gun is intended to have a short range.

What button would ADS be placed on? If it is going on a new button, what button would be used? Grenade switch has been moved to the D-Pad, so should something else as important be relegated to such an odd position? If it uses the zoom button, would it be animated, taking up time? Would it be instant, in which case why is it needed at all?
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Karl2177 said:
So GAF mobile is a sack of shit. I tried to make at least 3 posts this morning, but none of them went through, so here goes on desktop...

Firstly, Halo was great when movement wasn't sacrificed for something else. In CE and 2, I can't recall anytime when the player is forced to not move or move slowly. Halo 3 it only occurs in vehicle EMP(which I can fully understand, although on certain maps there were too many PPs/Power Drains). Reach and 4, though, the player sacrifices certain movements at spawn. Most games with ADS use the mechanic as a balancing tool. The player sacrifices movement for greater accuracy; they sacrifice greater accuracy for movement. Halo sets itself apart by not having an accuracy and movement handicap. This has been covered though.

Next up, there's actually balance issues with ADS. Halo's sandbox since Halo 3 has been emphasizing certain engagement ranges for certain weapons, which Reach putting each weapon into a firm role. ADS for longer range guns makes a bit of sense, because the player wants better accuracy from afar. These longer range guns are generally semi-automatic guns that have a "cooldown" period before they can be fired again. If ADS was placed on all guns for better accuracy, what is keeping me from SAW-ing across Containment? If a weapon is intended to be shorter range, then it shouldn't have something to make it more precise. The binoculars are used to allow for a slight zoom when the gun is intended to have a short range.

What button would ADS be placed on? If it is going on a new button, what button would be used? Grenade switch has been moved to the D-Pad, so should something else as important be relegated to such an odd position? If it uses the zoom button, would it be animated, taking up time? Would it be instant, in which case why is it needed at all?
Click to expand...

Blarg. I like it as B. Overall I just really like Reach's control scheme. It's fairly standard for FPSs while still serving Halo very well. 3's is ok, but I dislike having B for melee. Prefer a bumper for that, especially right bumper. This is partially because of how the 360 and One controllers work. You don't even have to move a finger to use the bumper and trigger back and forth, which in turn helps with the quick movement around the golden triangle, as Eugn was talking about.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Ragnarok Flames said:
Bumper jumper yo.
Click to expand...

I've actually started using that in Halo 3, but I'm perfectly satisfied with Reach's default control scheme. The only time I've been running into difficulty quickly switching to what I want is when sprinting and then having to hit left bumper again to stop when someone suddenly rounds the corner. Not really much a control scheme can help with that though.
 
W

wwm0nkey

Member
belucheez said:
Not on right now, but: belushy



Ah okay :p Working on a new mod?
Click to expand...

Yeah Im trying to get other grpahic options to be forced on but Murder Miners is XNA so.....kinda hard to do that. At least I got custom textures on armor and weapons to work with an XNB extractor :D

Also apparently 8k textures work in the game too on blocks.

jbrNWz57fbC4ak.bmp
Click to expand...

Also add me on Steam
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Looking at that armor color thing^ gets me thinking.

Wouldn't be AWESOME if Halo's armor had customization inline with the kind of stuff you see in Forza?

I would so be all over that. I love being all artsy in Forza and doing all these cool designs.
 
B

belushy

Banned
wwm0nkey said:
Yeah Im trying to get other grpahic options to be forced on but Murder Miners is XNA so.....kinda hard to do that. At least I got custom textures on armor and weapons to work with an XNB extractor :D

Also apparently 8k textures work in the game too on blocks.



Also add me on Steam
Click to expand...

Is XNA easy to manipulate? Like, in the future should people be able to add new guns to the game, or is that something Jforce will have to add support for?
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
Having switch grenades on the d-pad sucks and must never happen again. On Bumper Jumper, at least.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
I mean seriously why don't they?

Like, have a few preset control schemes, and then a few custom slots (like 3 or 5 or whatever) that we can customize and save.

If we want we can duplicate already existing ones and make changes as we well, sort of like in Forge how you can take an already existing map and modify it for a new one.
 
N

NobleGundam

Banned
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Just accept that people can't explain why they say or do the things they do. People mention all the time about sprint making maps larger this, sprint ruining gameplay that, but I have still yet to receive a legitimate explanation as to why we can have this in Murder Miners, but not even anything remotely similar in Halo:

http://a.pomf.se/qtjsko.webm

The maps don't have to be made significantly larger to account for sprint, nor does movement speed have to take a significant hit because of its inclusion. In reality, sprint helps with map traversal, especially in Big Team, so people completely dismissing any form of sprint is only setting them up for disappointment for its inevitable inclusion in Halo 5.

FACT: Murder Miners does it well.
QUESTION: Why can't Halo?
REALITY: Expect sprint in Halo 5.

^This is my argument. What is so different about Murder Miners that Halo can't pull off similar mechanics? Not to mention a 3sk Pistol and a 4sk BR.

Maybe one day.
/broken_record
Click to expand...
I don't know where to begin with this and neither do I want to explain everything to you about my arguments towards Sprint.

I like it as a pickup AA. But I really do not want a default Sprint back. It felt wrong in MP.

A default thruster pack 2.0 would probably benefit a lot more than Sprint ever could offer.

Perhaps the amount of players with default sprint made 343 consider the scale of the map and the flow of the game in their tests showed that larger maps were needed since most of them included vehicles plus speed boost ordnance that they had to factor all those variables into account.

Like why did we only had 1 good small sized map which was Haven? How come we didn't get anymore maps like it in the game?

And I will not expect it in Halo 5. Not a default sprint that is. I know they could do a lot better for its MP.
 
R

Ragnarok Flames

Banned
The Henery said:
Lololololol.

Re: Halo 5. Given the choice I'd prefer a return to one central utility weapon and a covie equivalent over the sandbox bloat we got with Halo 4. Not a fan of a DMR and a BR in the same sandbox.
Click to expand...

give us the Halo 2 BR with the ability to switch firing modes. and let us use a DMR skin for said BR
 
Deputy Moonman

Deputy Moonman

Member
TCKaos said:
So HaloCharts has created a single page that has aggregate stats for the entirety of your Halo matchmaking career across all games.
Click to expand...
Ha very cool. I was wondering why I had more games in Halo 3 than Halo 2. Then I remembered that I ended my xbox live account for some reason halfway through the life cycle of Halo 2. Couldn't get it back later so I had to change gamer tags. Memories!

Halo 2 release: Deputy Moonman
End of Halo 2 and beyond: XxDeputyMoonman

Halo 3: 2,418 games
Halo 2: 1,982 games + 4,844 games = 6,826 games (ahh now that's more like it)
 
W

willow ve

Member
Obligatory link http://halocharts.com/2013/career.php?gts=willow ve


Bought my 360 for the Halo 3 launch.
Before that played Halo 2 on friend and brother accounts.

Granted I got better as I played more and more... but I also upgraded to an HDTV and got cable internet about 75% of the way through Halo 3. Both of those made me noticeably better toward the end of 3.

Good times. Wish I had stats for Halo CE co-op campaign and LAN parties.
 
gAg CruSh3r

gAg CruSh3r

Member
Halo 4: KD - 1.21 / Games - 1,082
Halo Reach: KD - 1.14/ Games - 926
Halo 3: KD - 1.17/ Games - 5,536
Halo 2: KD - .93/ Games - 6,425

Time Played (Est.)
106 day(s) 16 hour(s) 59 min(s)

I played a lot of BTB in halo 2... :p I love Headlong One flag CTF. :)
 
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