RiccochetJ
Gold Member
If you teach them properly how the game works at the beginning, then there will be a less of an issue.
I'm honestly curious about the half-step remark.
Halo 4: Review Thread
- Thread starter Vire
- Start date
If you teach them properly how the game works at the beginning, then there will be a less of an issue.
I'm honestly curious about the half-step remark.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
What would you have to deal with and adjust if you're still playing like you always do? Nothing has changed from a competitive standpoint. All that's changed is that people are seeing things differently. As you posted, it should be to their detriment.
Wow just read the EGM review for the first time.
Halo fans: "Halo 4 has too many aspects from COD"
EGM :" We need more COD in here"
lol.
The day ADS is included in Halo I will stop playing the multiplayer.
Halo is Halo and should feature its own aspects, and it caters to casual already in my opinion way too much.
HiredNoobs with an excellent post
Halo fans: "Halo 4 has too many aspects from COD"
EGM :" We need more COD in here"
lol.
The day ADS is included in Halo I will stop playing the multiplayer.
Halo is Halo and should feature its own aspects, and it caters to casual already in my opinion way too much.
HiredNoobs with an excellent post
I didn't say 2 guns should be the norm. I'm saying hammering ADS into a game isn't "free" and doesn't come without implications. Much like taking a game that should have let you hold a bunch of guns at once then goes "halo does 2 guns", leading to tons of weapon juggling.
Or making a game then go "Regen health!" without redoing the encounters, making them too easy. If you have regen health, your game can be more active and have more encounters with less downtime between them. If your game is centered around healthpacks, then you usually have smaller encounters with notable breaks between them. If you introduce regen health into that, then the game becomes too easy (imagine Goldeneye with regen health. The game would be a cakewalk on the highest difficulty). If you took regen health out of a regen health game, then the encounters are unfairly hard. However, the systems always behave in a certain way. Regen health -> screen indicator, then you take cover and come back and fight. ADS -> hold to slow self down to trade for high accuracy, with auto aim grabbing onto the head for a quick one or two shots for the kill. When you go into zoom in Halo, your sensitivity is still the same, you still move the same as when unzoomed, and your gun's aiming isn't adjusted onto their head. That would be fairly overpowered, due to the way Halo's aiming system works. People would go into ADS in a firefight and just see a screen full of the other's player's chest as they die. If you were aiming at the head first, it'd basically be "press this button to win" if you added the CoD snap-to part. But since you wanted a skin.. it'd basically be a completely broken version of ADS.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
well, if you teach them properly they would never use iron sights in the first place.
there are people that like to play with a handicap but i don't think the crowd that has difficulty to adapt to halo's control scheme belongs to them
Krappadizzle
Member
It's funny that Halo came out and set the standard for fps, and then MW1 came and set the monetary benchmark and now everything must be CoD or it's broken. They are similiar in the way that Steak is similiar, it's a cut of a cow that is made different ways, but some people like it one way over the other. No one is fundamentally wrong, but you can't expect the steak to be the way you want if you don't order that cut of meat.
That may not be the best analogy, but I think the point is made.
Love steak.
That may not be the best analogy, but I think the point is made.
Love steak.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Things I am looking for from the campaign:-
1. First and foremost, I want a Halo campaign that gets back that sense of the alien, otherwordly vibe that CE has that NONE of the other campaigns have come close to replicating. Halo CE for me was the repeated '30 seconds of fun' in an environment that was just alien. Halo 4 with the Promethean's and Forerunners really looks like a return to that.
2. I don't the campaign to feel like COD or any other game - Halo has it's own DNA and identity and I want that retained in the campaign. Yes, give me '30 seconds of fun', but give me '30 seconds of Halo fun', that means no ADS, no 'big-ticket' scripting, emergent combat and a really challenging Legendary Solo campaign. Most importantly, the fundamental difference between Halo and most other FPS comes down to replay value, and Halo campaigns have always been very different for me depending on choices made in the combat sandbox. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed the MW games, but I don't think I've played through the campaign more than twice on any of them, just too similar. And that comes down to the fundamental DNA of the games core design, and ADS part of that.
3. I want the storyline to be more cohesive, and have a better focus. I have read all the expanded universe Halo books, and am interested to see whether Halo 4 fits better in the wider universe from a story perspective.
I'm a single-player gamer first and foremost, and multi-player gets very little time from me, so to a certain extent the influx of COD style options doesn't concern me THAT much, but I can see the point of view of someone that is more multi-player focussed being concern that Halo is losing it's identity, and I for one would be really gutted if that leaked into the campaign.
My 2c...
One other thing I liked in Halo 3 that I'm not sure exists in Halo 4 is the campaign metagame? Is there confirmation that it exists? Loved that mode!
1. First and foremost, I want a Halo campaign that gets back that sense of the alien, otherwordly vibe that CE has that NONE of the other campaigns have come close to replicating. Halo CE for me was the repeated '30 seconds of fun' in an environment that was just alien. Halo 4 with the Promethean's and Forerunners really looks like a return to that.
2. I don't the campaign to feel like COD or any other game - Halo has it's own DNA and identity and I want that retained in the campaign. Yes, give me '30 seconds of fun', but give me '30 seconds of Halo fun', that means no ADS, no 'big-ticket' scripting, emergent combat and a really challenging Legendary Solo campaign. Most importantly, the fundamental difference between Halo and most other FPS comes down to replay value, and Halo campaigns have always been very different for me depending on choices made in the combat sandbox. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed the MW games, but I don't think I've played through the campaign more than twice on any of them, just too similar. And that comes down to the fundamental DNA of the games core design, and ADS part of that.
3. I want the storyline to be more cohesive, and have a better focus. I have read all the expanded universe Halo books, and am interested to see whether Halo 4 fits better in the wider universe from a story perspective.
I'm a single-player gamer first and foremost, and multi-player gets very little time from me, so to a certain extent the influx of COD style options doesn't concern me THAT much, but I can see the point of view of someone that is more multi-player focussed being concern that Halo is losing it's identity, and I for one would be really gutted if that leaked into the campaign.
My 2c...
One other thing I liked in Halo 3 that I'm not sure exists in Halo 4 is the campaign metagame? Is there confirmation that it exists? Loved that mode!
Stripper13
Member
The biggest issue, apart from the idea of shoe-horning ADS (a feature in a sub-genre of FPS shooters), into a sub-genre (Arena shooters?) that has no use for it... is the fact that ADS is supposed to behave a certain way.
I can only imagine the frustration that long-time Halo fans would experience if ADS was added in - would only be outweighed by the COD/BF fans frustration when they realise ADS serves no purpose. ADS is supposed to slow down aiming sensitivity, give greater control over gun control and provide a degree of zooming/precision. To add that into Halo, without affecting balance (that is, provide no benefit apart from a ham-fisted visual effect) - would simply serve to confuse players. If I gave one of COD-fanatic friends a copy of vanilla Reach, they would adjust and play the game just fine... they may ask 'why' (and they have) there is no ADS, but it would be no issue. If I gave them the same game with ADS, they would play it 'wrong' - serving only to frustrate them and drive them further away.
Options are great - I get that. I just think there has to be a line drawn between helpful open-ended options, and confusing muddy alternatives.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
Give MW some more credit will ya? MW's SP was great and really cinematic and the MP was really addicting. It really was a great game. Since then every fps wanted to be cinematic and have the skill and ranking system that cod does. I don't see why that is an issue thought. In stead of siding with eiter COD or Halo, acknowledge that they can also help each other and the gaming world make a great game.
Krappadizzle
Member
Oh absolutely. When MW1 came out it was a breath of fresh air. Now, to me it feels as though that fresh air has been exhaled into a paper bag and I'm just breathing it back in again and again and again. Objectively speaking, CoD is fun as shit. It is a lot of fun that I can play with almost anyone. Now that it's been out for a while though, people I know from work hate Halo as they are so used to the mechanics of CoD without realizing that they are games meant to be played in a different way altogether. I feel that they are both(CoD and Halo) kings of their respective area of the field. Separate but equal kind of thing.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Great way to put it, options are not always good, and options that fundamentally change the balance of a game are always dubious.
Every option in a game must be fundamentally tested, optimised etc, it's a cost for the game and a potential opportunity cost for something else that could have been invested in.
A really great example IMO of an 'bad' option that was introduced in a game was Thief 3 introduced a 3rd person view; I know some people used it and maybe even liked it, but the option should NEVER have been added as the 1st person view is fundamental to what makes the Thief series. I game the option a chance, and it felt so unlike Thief I never used it again, and would rather the devs had invested the time and effort into more of the levels etc.
So with ADS, because some people like that playstyle (or rather have become accustomed to it due to COD), Halo should accomodate it even though it breaks the fundamental game design?
Maybe Halo should offer a 3rd person perspective like Resi /Dead Space too?
I am all for progression and change with positive results, and even experimentation with a few missteps is cool (dual wield), but I cordially dislike 'me too' design to appease the masses.
I hope over the course of this trilogy 343 retain their own voice and vision for the series.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
True, and worrying. It's much more difficult for Halo to attract players that have already played COD. In COD it's whoever points the gun first gets the kill and with the right perks it could be one burst. Once you're used to that it's very difficult to jump in a game that runs on shootouts.
Regarding ADS, it's logically impossible to do for a Spartan. You have to put your cheek on the weapon and look through the sight. That impossible with a helmet on (ODST too). They could modify the weapons, but then marines wouldn't be able to use it. ADS doesn't make sense for Halo unless Halo 5 or 6 feature a multiplayer Guerrilla mode which will be 7 marines vs 1 spartan or something like that.
I haven't played any CoD since MW because so much of the campaign was "just because" -- it had great moments and some of the best storytelling in any shooter until that point (the nuke crawl was fantastic, but it sadly seems that what made it so has been forgotten). But the respawning terrorist hallways/closets/whatever put me off completely. I had the same problem with earlier games in the series, but by CoD4 I had had enough. I was also frustrated by the constant funneling forward and sometimes unclear objectives; I never felt like I had full freedom in what I was doing, and I was punished as soon as I strayed from the game's arbitrary path.
Halo has nearly always been the opposite of that, the very nearly polar opposite. About as far away as you can go without switching genres. It feels less like playing a pre-planned movie and more like playing a game.
I am hoping for the same with Halo 4 4. We will see.
I gotta note that I didn't use ADS until the final mission of CoD4. I did not know it was a thing. I jumped into the game on Veteran and paid no attention to the controls. I am not sure if that would affect my opinion... I imagine, had I used it, I would have been even more disappointed with its near-complete automation.
I don't think it has a place outside of shooting galleries.
Doctor Decimate
Member
EGM would have the worst review (MOAR CAWD) if IGN hadn't stepped up to the plate (IT'S LIKE IT'S HAVING SEX WITH MY MIND USING RAINBOWS)
If you teach them properly how the game works at the beginning, then they should understand that they don't need ADS in the first place.
Adding ADS without actually adding it would probably be more confusing than leaving it out altogether. You're suggesting adding a mechanic that has no function at all, solely for people who are used to games where it has an extremely important function. How would that help them?
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
The addition of ADS to Halo would be completely unnecessary. Even more, it would go against the very foundation of what makes Halo's gameplay fun and uniquely its own. It would be like adding a cover system to Serious Sam. In other words, it's a ridiculous idea, not unlike some others proposed in that review and the reviewer's comments (smaller levels with more guided setpiece moments - just no).
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
Hmmm not liking the comparisons to the levels and encounters being as confined as Halo 2.
RealDeadOne
Member
They should add percentage counters to Street Fighter so that people coming from Smash Bros. are more comfortable.
They should add a first-person mode in Dead Space so people coming from Halo are more comfortable.
They should add a turn-based option for Starcraft so people coming from Civilization are more comfortable.
They should add a first-person mode in Dead Space so people coming from Halo are more comfortable.
They should add a turn-based option for Starcraft so people coming from Civilization are more comfortable.
Except that EVERY Halo game is linear. Every single one of 'em!
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Every single Halo game in linear, who gives a shit. It's what they do with that linear level design that matters(weapons, enemy encounter design, vehicles, pacing of objectives, etc)
RealDeadOne
Member
Linearity isn't a valid complaint in this case. Not every game has to be open-world or have multiple paths.
In Halo, the variance in gameplay comes from the AI and player interacting. Firefights don't play out exactly the same way each time as they do in a game like Call of Duty where enemy locations and movements are predetermined. The fun comes from experimenting with different weapons and tactics.
And no, choosing what order you go to your three objectives in Halo CE's titular level was not non-linearity.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
I think Linearity is the wrong word in this case. What some of the reviewers and people who've played seem to be mentioning is that the levels are more cramped and encounters smaller, with some comparisons being made to Halo 2. Now whether or not that is really the case remains to be seen, but I do think that this was a major problem with Halo 2's campaign and a valid concern for Halo 4.
gollumsluvslave
Member
QFT.
And again, I like the cut of your jib!
The best moments in Halo hide that. And while not every game needs to be open world, the fact that "it's always been this way" doesn't absolve it from criticism. It sounds like this game might be a step backwards in that regard which would be disappointing.
RealDeadOne
Member
Complaining about the linearity of Halo is like complaining about there being too many things to do in GTA. It's a fundamental design component and to take issue with that is to take issue with the game on its most basic level.
I also don't agree that the best moments in Halo hid its linearity. Thinking of some of my favorite moments:
-CE's Assault on the Control Room was an obviously linear path through a canyon
-2's trip through the Forerunner ruins on Delta Halo was clearly just one path through caves and tunnels
-3's Ark level was another vehicle-based drive through canyons, culminating in a battle with a Scarab and a small walk through some hallways to fight a Brute Chieftain
-Reach's Long Night of Solace was one path up a beach, a Star Fox level, a couple of corridor shootouts and then a Firefight map.
The only one I can give you is ODST's Mombassa streets, and even in that all of the actual missions were as linear as any other shooter.
Taking issue with the linearity is the same as taking issue with the game not having more scripted setpieces or ADS. It's asking for the game to be something it's not about.
However, as has been said, I think the linearity complaints in many of the reviews are referring to the actual combat areas being smaller compared to previous Halo games, which would be a shame if true. The "non-linearity" in Halo is in having some arenas with multiple vantage points and safe zones.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Wait, there are actually people arguing for iron sights in the thread?
Honestly?
For one, everything hirednoobs said. Perfection.
Secondly, it's in the cannon...how would a Spartan with a huge helmet and visor use iron sights effectively? They wouldn't. Not to mention the HuD and suit do it all for them, which is why they have never needed iron sights. It's in the books, the games, halo legends, etc. firmly cemented in the essence of Halo.
And lastly, you're going to change all the gun models to now have iron sights? The needler? The plasma pistol? The iconic AR? That would be asinine. All the weapons you would even consider needing iron sights, already have scopes. BR, DMR, Carbine, Needle Rifle, even the pistol...
Adding iron sights to Halo would be the worst addition to the series since its inception. It goes against everything Halo is about.
And this is coming from a person who loved armor lock, and loves all the new "COD" like changes to Halo 4. I'm not some uber purist. Iron sights in Halo is asinine.
Honestly?
For one, everything hirednoobs said. Perfection.
Secondly, it's in the cannon...how would a Spartan with a huge helmet and visor use iron sights effectively? They wouldn't. Not to mention the HuD and suit do it all for them, which is why they have never needed iron sights. It's in the books, the games, halo legends, etc. firmly cemented in the essence of Halo.
And lastly, you're going to change all the gun models to now have iron sights? The needler? The plasma pistol? The iconic AR? That would be asinine. All the weapons you would even consider needing iron sights, already have scopes. BR, DMR, Carbine, Needle Rifle, even the pistol...
Adding iron sights to Halo would be the worst addition to the series since its inception. It goes against everything Halo is about.
And this is coming from a person who loved armor lock, and loves all the new "COD" like changes to Halo 4. I'm not some uber purist. Iron sights in Halo is asinine.
NobleGundam
Banned
RealDeadOne
Member
They need to just make a UNSC Marines spinoff of Halo that fully incorporates all of the silly CoD/Battlefield inspirations people keep asking for
...Actually, that could be really good if done right...
...Actually, that could be really good if done right...
scar tissue
Banned
Just for reference, what scores did you give Call of Duty WaW, MW2, MW3 and BlOps?
I'm sure it was more than a 7.
CoD is the very definition of roster update, every game since MW1 has been the same. No significant new mechanics akin to armor abilities or sprint have been introduced, no creative new weapons or vehicles either (although obviously this is harder in a "realistic" shooter than a scifi one). All they are is a clean pallet swap of bulletgun #1 to bulletgun #2 with slightly different clip sizes or firing rates. Hell, no new enemies that weren't palette swaps (except for the juggernaut) have been introduced either, and not even the graphics improved much. MW1 looked dated already, BlOps was just embarassing.
The story of every single cod game after MW1 except for maybe black ops is utter crap. Generic cliché bad guy threatening the holy land of america, the good guys (U-S-A! U-S-A!) go after him, the viewpoint alternates between a couple of main characters, one or two of which suffer a "shocking" and untimely death.
AI is braindead and monster closets are used frequently - not sure if MW3/BlOps has them, but every game up to and including MW2 does. Pretty sure I saw some in BlOps too.
Not to mention the campaign is short as fuck every single time.
I enjoy the ride in CoD the same way I enjoy an movie like "Taken" - by turning off most higher brain functions. It's a fun experience, but if I were to review the CoD series(scores are relative to their release date, MW2 is slightly better than MW1 but it came out years later), I'd give MW1 an 7.5, WaW a 6, MW2 a 7 and BlOps a 7.5.
There is no replay value in the campaign, it is short, scripted and linear, the multiplayer is the exact same thing every time, and so on.
I played a good chunk of Halo 4's campaign at a friend's yesterday who got it early, and I can tell you that there is no way the campaign is worse than any iteration of CoD, not even if the rest of the campaign after I stopped playing is just pictures of dicks flashing on the screen without any gameplay.
Edit: I could live with ADS in Halo if it was implemented the same way as in Killzone 2: the bullet spread at medium range without ADS is still not overwhelming, you just need ADS for long range.
But if it was like CoD, where the bullet spread changes drastically when you ADS, I'd bail out hard.
Either way, it would change the game for the worse and it wouldn't make any sense, fiction-wise, either. The HUD of the chief syncs up with the weapons, why would he aim down sights? The weapons don't even HAVE sights for fucks sake.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Oddly enough. This sounds like a good idea.
I'm all for spinoffs into other genres. Marines,+iron sights+flood, + shadows would be great. Think "The Mona Lisa."
scar tissue
Banned
Marine campaign from AvP in the Halo universe? YES PLEASE
Although I could do without iron sights in this spinoff too.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
So, this is down to an 89 on metacritic.
The EGM review everyone is arguing about claimed the levels/spaces were too big.
""...ignoring obvious enhancements like big-ticket sequences and proper iron-sights mechanics in favor of their age-old addiction to slow, methodical combat in unnecessarily large environments."
So, this is down to an 89 on metacritic.
Popcorn.gif
If it's only 97% the quality of Reach, it's still going to be rad.So, this is down to an 89 on metacritic.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Yeah, I straight up refuse to buy games under 90 MetaCritic. 60 bucks is a lot of money in this economy.
Pre-order cancelled. I was so lookin' forward to this being the next great step in the Halo series
(((((((
Pre-order cancelled. I was so lookin' forward to this being the next great step in the Halo series
(((((((So, this is down to an 89 on metacritic.
Hope 343 bonuses aren't tied to Metacritc or they just got New Vegas'd.
PsihoPerihelion
Member
Shane Satterfield sounded really enthusiastic about the game on IW. He said the game is stunning, the soundtrack is increbible, the A.I. is the best on a shooter in years, and many other extremely positive things. He and the rest of the crew do complained about the game feeling "old" on its core design. That's going to be a very interesting review.
*cancels preorder and proceeds to suicide*
So, this is down to an 89 on metacritic.
*cancels preorder and proceeds to suicide*
Oh no, Microsoft won't pay a bonus to Microsoft! Now they're gun be closed