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Halo 5: Guardians |OT4| You picked a helluva week to join up
- Thread starter Fuchsdh
- Start date
Will do. It's looking like I won't be busy this Saturday, so I probably could run another test session. The big problem I had was getting people to show up. It's crazy that back in the Reach days, the game blew chunks but you could easily get 15 other people from here. Now that Halo is good, it's a real struggle to get 7 others.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
This fucking rock
I HATE this rock. Why is it so damn hard to walk/run up!?
343 pls
I hate that rock. I always have issues using it as a shortcut to get to the spire on raid on apex 7.
I'd like to see a line of sight based radar.
That way it combines the benefits of being able to know what's going on directly behind you without having to constantly turn around (ie: ninjas are still possible) and it removes the vast majority of the negatives associated with radar.
That way it combines the benefits of being able to know what's going on directly behind you without having to constantly turn around (ie: ninjas are still possible) and it removes the vast majority of the negatives associated with radar.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
How about no radar, but they add spotting like in Gears? See an enemy, push a button to tag them, #teamwork.
Only if the tags aren't visible through terrain.
YourExWife
Member
This fucking rock
I HATE this rock. Why is it so damn hard to walk/run up!?
343 pls
#DealWithIt
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
LTTP: Yep, we got hammered that game, didn't even secure the first area. The only game 3 of us Aussies played of assault that night, it was our return to WZ assault, I haven't played it in around 2-3 months. We can finally find matches in it but they're laggy AF.
By the prophets I did not know most of that, seems unintentional but that at least explains why a mate and I are always saying to each other we don't understand how players are moving so fast and killing us out of nowhere and not showing on radar. We thought it was latency on the radar but it's these mechanics. No wonder really aggressive stringing abilities and jumps together is so rewarding in game.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
How will your teammates see the tags then? A better idea would be to not make them last long.
Gears handles this perfectly and is not overpowered whatsoever. Doesn't even have to be assigned to a button. Shoot an enemy and they're tagged like the objective carrier. I've been saying this for a long time, but to the average player who isn't communicating, radar empowers selfish gameplay far too much. Look at player patterns, look at what they do when they spawn. So many players just run straight out to the action, relying on their radar to tell them if there are enemies around without using other systems like friendly indicators when they're in a fight or just basic intuition. So many people aren't conscious of their surroundings because they're dependent on radar to relay that information to them instead of considering not having their backs exposed and being conscious of sight lines.
No one is complaining in DOOM that there's no radar in multiplayer or single player. No one is complaining in Overwatch that there's no radar in that game. No one is complaining in CoD and Battlefield that you don't show up on the minimap for movement. It's just crazy how some Halo fans have been groomed to be dependent on 5% screen estate because of how overpowered it is.
Prinz Eugn
Member
This fucking rock
I HATE this rock. Why is it so damn hard to walk/run up!?
343 pls
Worst rock in the game by far. A mess.
Hey, I'm not arguing for radar, I dislike it as well.
That said a tag system like that wouldn't work at all IMO. With how easy it is to traverse the maps and their fairly small size being tagged would be a death sentence. If you're in an open area and get tagged all eyes would immediately be on you and you'd die immediately. If you're near enough to cover and get inside you'd find a barrage of grenades coming your way. It'd hinder movement and aggression even more so than radar.
I imagine a tagging system like that could work in something like Gears because of the cover mechanics reduced ease of movement around the map. In the case of Battlefield it only works because the maps are massive.
Munch Poke
Member
I've read the anti radar arguments from here and many other places for years. And in team games I can almost understand the arguments, even though I'm very close up and personal during gameplay.
What would kill me is Free for all games without it. Forcing teams to work together even more would certainly improve things for some, although those without reliable teammates would hate it. I've certainly been blessed to have much better players to work with in more recent years but there are plenty of evenings where no one is on and in those cases a solid social playlist that still had radar would help so greatly. Well a social playlist that didn't allow more than two in a firearm would do wonders for plenty of reasons.
I'm still on the side of keeping motion trakcer becuase to me, it's what gave Halo such diversity not to mention there'd be faaar less purpose other than strafing for crouching. But Ill be the first to admit I love holding down anchor spots in team games and using close quarters weapons any chance I get. I'd hate to see how weak certain weapons would feel without radar.
Edit: while the spotting idea is neat I'm inclined to agree with Jem in the fact that it would be a death sentence and in some cases force one man per team to acquire high ground for the sole purpose of spotting people out. Almost like trading a teammate for a new radar.
What would kill me is Free for all games without it. Forcing teams to work together even more would certainly improve things for some, although those without reliable teammates would hate it. I've certainly been blessed to have much better players to work with in more recent years but there are plenty of evenings where no one is on and in those cases a solid social playlist that still had radar would help so greatly. Well a social playlist that didn't allow more than two in a firearm would do wonders for plenty of reasons.
I'm still on the side of keeping motion trakcer becuase to me, it's what gave Halo such diversity not to mention there'd be faaar less purpose other than strafing for crouching. But Ill be the first to admit I love holding down anchor spots in team games and using close quarters weapons any chance I get. I'd hate to see how weak certain weapons would feel without radar.
Edit: while the spotting idea is neat I'm inclined to agree with Jem in the fact that it would be a death sentence and in some cases force one man per team to acquire high ground for the sole purpose of spotting people out. Almost like trading a teammate for a new radar.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Did I come off too strong? lol I wasn't being aggressive or attacking your opinion, my bad if it seemed that way.
The balance comes with how long the tag lasts, but to counter what you're saying, you mention how fairly small the maps are, yet we have a radar that details the exact position of enemies, even elevation. By that logic, motion tracker is equally, if not more overpowered than a short tagging system because you don't even have to see the enemy to know where they are. With a tag, someone needs to see them first.
Can you explain why crouching is/should be a necessity to holding a position? And how would weapons be weaker without radar?
I hear that, but it might provide a more interesting gameplay dynamic than crouching around with motion tracker, slowing gameplay to a crawl. It's not only for crouching that motion tracker is good for; it's extremely helpful with avoiding fights, and that's a problem in my opinion because the game already gives us numerous ways to escape situations we don't want to be in thanks to thrusters, sprint, clamber, shields, regenerating health, etc.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
The current radar and movements are fine IMO. I'm really not seeing much difference in gameplay out of pro streams vs no radar days of MLG. If anything I'm seeing some interesting gameplay out of them in terms of stealth, which is nice.
Everyone knows I love radar, so I just leave that here
As for solo vs party I could see how party matched games without radar could work but solo searching radar is a must for me.
Everyone knows I love radar, so I just leave that here
As for solo vs party I could see how party matched games without radar could work but solo searching radar is a must for me.
If you are somewhere where you are intending to slide, you are likely out in the open anyway, where radar doesn't even come into play. But if you sprint-slide towards a known camping position, then crouch jump the rest of the way, you can be off of the radar before a would be crouch-camper can pick you up on radar (radar only sees 18m). This is all without losing momentum.
Radar hampers movement when a player decides to crouch in a position of safety to get the jump on moving targets who are unaware of his presence. The fact that there is way to approach these positions without appearing on the radar inhibits one ability to effectively use the radar in this way. The more people are aware of when, where, and how to stay off of the radar, the less effective it is to rely on the radar.
The difference with radar is that it's unique to your position. If you see someone on radar the only way the rest of your team would know was if you were to call them out, however even then they only know a rough position.
With a tagging system they'd be able to see the exact position of a player from across the map.
One way I could see a tagging system work would be if you hit someone a static tag appears at the position where you last hit them and is proximity based (ie: you need to be within 20m of the tag to see it).
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
It's something you have to experience, not "see."
I have a strong feeling those of you in favor of radar have not experienced enough (key word here) Halo multiplayer without it, whether it's competitive or casual play. Gameplay has more depth without it, and freedom of movement is a key part of that. I'm not sure there's anything more I can explain than I already have, so I'll just concede with the good ol' Trust Me™. If they removed radar tomorrow, you guys would probably be up in arms about it at first, but then you'd quickly realize how fun gameplay is when the enemies don't know your every move. It's completely different, freedom of movement provides interesting moments that allows for more creativity.
You really think that video is some revelatory thing, don't you? It doesn't and won't change anything lol.
EDIT:
Not a bad idea, see how that works? Already better than radar as we know it considering we also have friendly indicators as feedback to know where the action is and who needs help.
Forerunner
Member
We'll make BTB pistol starts happen instead!
It has already changed things for me. I just learned how to get from red bend to blue bend, faster than sprinting, wilst minimizing the time I spend with my gun down. As a bonus I won't be on radar either. Should be good for a few extra kills easy.
I've got something to help against crouch-campers. they can't ambush me as I turn the corner if they have no idea I'm there. So no, enemies won't know my every move.
I don't disagree that fully removing radar would do MORE to open up movement. But the tools to punish people who are over reliant on radar are available for those who want them.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
;'[
!
Consider this: You only JUST found out about this, whereas a majority of Halo players probably won't ever know about it. What difference will it truly make in the grand scheme of things? And now that you do know it, you really think it'll be that much more effective against competent players who see a jumping Spartan move around the map?
Competent players aren't just sitting in a corner staring only at their radar, so why are you assuming such? They have an eye on it while keeping their eyes on the action around them.
True, but wasn't there some talk about changing it to sprint/shooting-based, or was that just wishful thinking on Beyond/Twitter?
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
The trouble is I come from the objective maps and gametypes of H2/3 such as burial mounds, Zanzibar, neutral bomb, headlong, waterworks and more. It's not the hyper competitive small MLG/HCS stuff where I can see merit for your teamwork. So when you describe I haven't played enough that's just erroneous as I just prefer a different Halo segment of play to you. If you give me something like neutral bomb in matchmaking on sanctuary with no radar it's over. Give me a bomb and no radar on Zanzibar and it's really over. Giving a 10,000s objective games player like me a bomb without radar = games over before they even start. Sure at high level HCS play that's a totally different story and I'm dead in the water but in matchmaking experience we all have over a decade+ of gameplay it's pure death.
My issues with no radar are it generally speeds up play too much, disadvantages solo play and further advantages those with better latency than their enemies. When you consider the thing I consider I'm best at in objective games, and my Halo buddies know me for this, it's being in the right place with the enemy team unaware and timing it just right so I can plant a bomb or take a flag and change the landscape of the game. It's the reason I could solo from Australia in H3 objective to 50, just let that sink in for a moment. Australian on USA games playing with zero Aussies at 50 levels and getting there to the top rank. Without the gametypes and radar there is no way I'd would have been able to change the outcomes of games or rank up to 50 in that playlist against teams of USA players that were super organised. Playlists or gametypes without radar could work but I think with HCS now moving to the default game and radar on everywhere the argument has set sail for the foreseeable future mate.
It really explains a lot for me, I now understand why I'm just dead all of a sudden without seeing radar. Rarely do I not see an enemy approaching. Literally I die and see the blip after/during the kill happening to me. I'll now be able to practice this to my advantage, without knowing it I've sort of gone on that chaining of abilities aggressive play when doing shit in a game knowing I get more kills that way. I understand why that was effective for me now and I can work in it more too. So yes I also find that video somewhat of a revelation. What I find interesting from your no radar perspective is you now have this ability to know the small radius radar, spot an enemy or anticipate their positions and head on in like a bat out of hell while NOT showing on radar. You're still not liking that aspect?
New forge textures look so good High Citadel (H3 Remake)
I'm gunna be honest, I've barely played any Halo without radar (SWAT doesn't really count...) but thinking about it in a logical way and it's obvious that it creates more problems than it solves.
That said I do think it helps with lesser skilled players. Let's be honest, a lot of lower level play revolves around chasing kills and radar is a bit help with that, especially if your awareness isn't that great and you don't know the maps that well. I do think it would make lower level play more frustrating for a lot of players because they'd be chasing a player and then that player could disappear with no indication of where they've gone. This would happen a lot with H5's map design and movement set.
That said I'd be willing to make the game a little worse for lower level play to substantially improve higher level play (sorry...)
That said I do think it helps with lesser skilled players. Let's be honest, a lot of lower level play revolves around chasing kills and radar is a bit help with that, especially if your awareness isn't that great and you don't know the maps that well. I do think it would make lower level play more frustrating for a lot of players because they'd be chasing a player and then that player could disappear with no indication of where they've gone. This would happen a lot with H5's map design and movement set.
That said I'd be willing to make the game a little worse for lower level play to substantially improve higher level play (sorry...)
Forerunner
Member
I've actually have been doing really well this season. Generally, grinding to Onyx is a pain, but this season has been smooth sailing. I havent been losing that many matches lately. Maybe its the new focused setting or the new control settings or it could just be luck! Last game against a four man no less:
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
That's absolutely amazing. Crazy good.
This fucking rock
I HATE this rock. Why is it so damn hard to walk/run up!?
343 pls
yeeeeaaah i dunno. i'd take that rock over the other sides lack of even a shitty walk/run rock. all they have is a couple of not quite as good shitty clamber rocks.
once again, major props to 343 (esl?) for listening to the community. this NEEDED to happen.
Munch Poke
Member
Well namely for one, the most obvious thing is crouching makes me a smaller target. So hiding when in danger is a much more feasible option, as I think it should be. The person hiding isn't the only one using the radar and in situations where people don't think anyone is near them (simply because of no dots on radar) the person hiding can hope the opponent may gloss over them and use that as an advantage. I cannot tell you how many times I've danced around a pillar and swooped in on someone thinking a room was all clear. You not being on their radar lures them into a false sense of security which is essential for using sneaky guerrilla tactics.
Yes while entire games with radar may crawl so too can games without it. I recall adrift in H4 being terrible to watch when both teams camp. And the videos I watched were without radar use. Youre certainly right about it being used as another out for bad situations, but I don't think that's bad. I can't tell you how many times I've held down an area and upon seeing three enemy dots converging on me bailed out before I was outnumbered or out matched. It makes the individual more able bodied for those fight or flight situations. Be that good or bad is up to the individual but I'd be hard pressed to play this game in certain modes without it. Maybe I'm that 5% you speak of, but I don't mind. I enjoy having more options.
I don't think we'll ever agree on this but I love my radar.
As for weakening weapons I'm sure we could both agree the shotty and sword would both suffer if the game was more run and gun without radar. Without improving those weapons in other ways (speed boost) they would see less use. And you know my feelings on the sword.
sir_dany12
Member
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Not to call your post out, but this is the problem with these discussions, not to mention the stereotyping that is usually involved. I post how I think it's better for competitive and casual play, but Ozzy takes it as me solely talking from an MLG super competitive perspective when that's not me at all lol.
I may be pretty decent at Halo and understand what it takes to be a CHAMPION, but in my heart I'm all about Camo Stickies on Hang 'Em High (better w/o radar), Hog Wars in CE (better w/o radar), and fun, balanced, competitive matches without the crutches that hold gameplay back from greatness. Everything is better without radar.
This proves my point, your only option here is to run away. That's so boring and one-dimensional.
Now imagine if those three enemies don't know you're there and you can get the drop on them.. BAM, you now have an opportunity you didn't have before that allows for you to be creative, possibly popping out to kill one, then escape without the enemies seeing where your red dot is moving to like an alligator lurking in the water, ready to snatch an animal while its group is amazed by the gator's clever movement. Way more interesting than camping an area, seeing three dots, knowing you don't have the upperhand then running away from a fight. So. Much. Avoiding. Fights. Tashi pls.
I think the Sword especially would be better without radar lol, so I guess we disagree there ;b
love the sightlines. riptides long hallway, lulz
Munch Poke
Member
Well, personally for me they wouldn't normally know exactly where I am. I'm very quick to alternate between crouching or running.
And there's something wrong with running? Running is AN option. As it should be. I could bounce a perfect nade on this doorway, I could be waiting with rockets or a sword, or I could now tell my team that three of our four opponents are on my location and I intend to bring them towards my teammates. And trust me there's nothing boring about luring in people only for them to focus on your teammates you've called in thus giving you the chance to disappear and reappear on them.
It's far from one dimensional. It empowers me to make a better decision by giving me more awareness of my surroundings. Yes my teammates assist with that but radar allows me as an individual to be a more effective teammate.
Samurai G0SU
Member
they should just have a no radar vareint of arena n see what the people choose.
Team Arena - no radar
Social Arena - radar
¯\_(ツ
_/¯ Bonus overkill clip
3rd guy choked haaaard
i'd certainly like to see them test it without radar (or modified radar). FYI, apparently they did with pro team and it was pretty unanimous that 5 played better with. buuuut, whatever is decided, i really want consistent among all playlists. no splitting the population. even if this means we stick with radar just cause.
this is the most obvious change IMO. would instantly make the playlist better with (possibly?) zero legit counter arguments.
renagades scrimming eg, starting now(ish) on new team arena settings
https://www.twitch.tv/ninja
ninja's pov, but there are likely others streaming
https://www.twitch.tv/ninja
ninja's pov, but there are likely others streaming
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Running away isn't what the problem is, the problem is that usually being your best and/or only option.
Without radar you become more powerful as an individual player because you're not as dependent on your teammates for teamshooting and cover fire. As far as being more effective as a teammate, that's arguable. Sure being able to relay the information from radar to your teammates is more effective than without, but that's not saying much. It would be like wanting Promethean Vision as a Spartan Ability because you can be an even more effective teammate than without, but no one wants that. So it's not really a point in radar's favor considering you can still be equally if not more effective as a teammate because you're now stronger as an individual.
I think it balances out while providing more opportunities for creative movement.
I'd love to see a Team Arena/Slayer social playlist without radar.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I've got you pegged all wrong then
I think that makes our polar opposites on radar discussion worse Load up stream and advert for COD on PS4. First strike medal awarded.
Samurai G0SU
Member
See guys. Im full of great ideas.... a factory of ideassss.
Seeeee guyzzzzz. Hi.
Hi
Hi
Seeeee guyzzzzz. Hi.
Hi
Hi
backtracking just to respond to this... I tried some uc4 mp out tonight as well.
garbaaaaaaaage.
Was back on H5 with swiftness
this first match, truth ctf, is fookin great! 2-2 standoff right now.
EDIT: renegades top 2 confirmed. up 1-0
EDIT 2: whelp. 1-1, it was fun while it lasted. rng = washed.