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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?

The four Johnson trick was cool.

That's since become my party trick. People ask, "hey Triscuit, what can you do?" "I can beat Tartarus at the end of Halo 2 on Legendary without firing a single shot".

Actually I hope Halo 6 comes out next year so we can ride the Halo 5 update wave and hopefully get a framerate update. That at least will keep the core custom content community active despite the diminished support from 343.

I still want Halo 3 Anniversary this year, with Halo 3 maps and mechanics brought over to Halo 5's multiplayer for a special playlist, like with Halo Reach.
 
That's since become my party trick. People ask, "hey Triscuit, what can you do?" "I can beat Tartarus at the end of Halo 2 on Legendary without firing a single shot".



I still want Halo 3 Anniversary this year, with Halo 3 maps and mechanics brought over to Halo 5's multiplayer for a special playlist, like with Halo Reach.

halo 3 btb map remakes would be awesome. all the 4v4 maps would be broken though.

but halo 3 can keep the shit BR.
 
halo 3 btb map remakes would be awesome. all the 4v4 maps would be broken though.

but halo 3 can keep the shit BR.

When I say "mechanics", I mean the Halo 3 hitscan BR, too. Maybe reduce the spread at a range (keep it in, but make it a little more predictable at medium-long range).
 
When I say "mechanics", I mean the Halo 3 hitscan BR, too. Maybe reduce the spread at a range (keep it in, but make it a little more predictable at medium-long range).

If there's any mechanic 343 needs to take away from Halo 3 or any other Halo is the simple fact that less is more.

Halo 5 can be fun to play sometimes but as soon as you start designing for this game, you realize that it fails one of the major fundamentals of Halo gameplay: predictability.

You can go anywhere from anywhere in Halo 5 at any point. This was of course a problem as well when Jetpack was in the game, but even then players could not move as fast as they can now. Again, that's great in a Campaign environment or in Warzone where the maps are fucking massive and you want to "feel like a Spartan" charging down a beach or whatever. And there's nothing inherently wrong with faster movement.

But every game that does fast movement well either has health with health pickups or really fast kill times. Halo has slow kill times and recharging shields, so smaller player counts fall apart at the seams.

Honestly, I would trade Sprint, Thrust, Clamber, Spartan Charge and Slide for a single Double Jump that we can use at any point to propel us forward, upwards or backwards. If it was momentum based, we could have very intelligent level design and predictable player movement again without losing the "feel good" movement of Halo 5. And of course, you'd be able to shoot while doing it unlike the abilities I just listed. Sprint and Thrust will only ever be used defensively so long as you cannot shoot while doing it.

Most importantly, Double Jump would not break the spawning engine and pace of the game. That alone justifies the removal of the afformentioned elements which completely offset the cadence of Halo combat - a nuance that 343 wasn't able to restore with the Pistol. The maps no longer direct players; players just do whatever they want.

I know it's pissing in the wind at this point which is why I don't consider Halo 5 a real Halo title. Even Halo 4 retained a lot of the core aspects of the game (at least when you modded Sprint out). There are just too many fundamental elements of what made Halo work that have been lost in the additions. The game was more than "even starts and floaty jumps".

Every well designed map in the history of Halo would play like ass in Halo 5. All this talk of a Halo 3 remaster and all I see are people clambering all over Guardian or thrusting all over Narrows or Sprinting all around The Pit. Sure throw in the original Halo 3 gameplay on top of that if you want, but then you'll end up with H2A, which was at its basest less nuanced than the original game.
 
Ur right Zoba. If anyone spends any amount of time in forge, you are confronted with the fact that anyone can break your map until you morph it into something that you didn't intend. Spartan abilities really break core Halo map design in almost every way possible. You can make a competent Halo 5 map, but it's darn near impossible to make a good Halo map.

Playing the Halo CE playlist not only made me realize how interesting H5 is with a powerful utility weapon, but the simple clean map design and high walls restricted your usage of H5's abilities quite a bit. And it was awesome.

Less is definitely more. In an attempt to refresh Halo they over complicated it imo. Everytime I introduce Halo 5 to casual FPS players they always mention how complicated and bloated the movement is. Obviously to us it's not complicated, but to the average player it's daunting. My father LOVES the series, but only touched Halo 5 once. This is due to the overwhelming movement additions and frustrations in the campaign. Halo was great at simplicity for broad appeal, but with a lot of depth for dedicated nerds like us (unintentional or not).
 
If there's any mechanic 343 needs to take away from Halo 3 or any other Halo is the simple fact that less is more.

Halo 5 can be fun to play sometimes but as soon as you start designing for this game, you realize that it fails one of the major fundamentals of Halo gameplay: predictability.

You can go anywhere from anywhere in Halo 5 at any point. This was of course a problem as well when Jetpack was in the game, but even then players could not move as fast as they can now. Again, that's great in a Campaign environment or in Warzone where the maps are fucking massive and you want to "feel like a Spartan" charging down a beach or whatever. And there's nothing inherently wrong with faster movement.

But every game that does fast movement well either has health with health pickups or really fast kill times. Halo has slow kill times and recharging shields, so smaller player counts fall apart at the seams.

Honestly, I would trade Sprint, Thrust, Clamber, Spartan Charge and Slide for a single Double Jump that we can use at any point to propel us forward, upwards or backwards. If it was momentum based, we could have very intelligent level design and predictable player movement again without losing the "feel good" movement of Halo 5. And of course, you'd be able to shoot while doing it unlike the abilities I just listed. Sprint and Thrust will only ever be used defensively so long as you cannot shoot while doing it.

Most importantly, Double Jump would not break the spawning engine and pace of the game. That alone justifies the removal of the afformentioned elements which completely offset the cadence of Halo combat - a nuance that 343 wasn't able to restore with the Pistol. The maps no longer direct players; players just do whatever they want.

I know it's pissing in the wind at this point which is why I don't consider Halo 5 a real Halo title. Even Halo 4 retained a lot of the core aspects of the game (at least when you modded Sprint out). There are just too many fundamental elements of what made Halo work that have been lost in the additions. The game was more than "even starts and floaty jumps".

Every well designed map in the history of Halo would play like ass in Halo 5. All this talk of a Halo 3 remaster and all I see are people clambering all over Guardian or thrusting all over Narrows or Sprinting all around The Pit. Sure throw in the original Halo 3 gameplay on top of that if you want, but then you'll end up with H2A, which was at its basest less nuanced than the original game.

I agree, but look at it from another perspective.

I think the mechanics of Halo evolved intelligently in Halo 5, but the map design failed to keep up.

I dont think its possible or wise to return to a Halo that restricts the freedom of movement that Halo 5 introduced, the map design simply needs to take a similar step forward in modernity of thinking and design.

Its not impossible to direct map flow for players with increased options. Its just more difficult. And yes, it may require design approaches that render 'traditional' Halo map design pillars obsolete.

But on the other end of the spectrum, there are some maps in Halo 5 like Empire, Rig and Plaza, that feel as if the entire design directive first and foremost was to give players as many opportunities to use the new movement abilities as much a possible. There's just such a density of geometry and telegraphed routes up, over and through said geometry, stuffed within what feels like incredibly tight quarters.

Im sure in sheer virtual meters squared, those maps are huge compared to Halo 3 arena maps. But they feel small amd claustrophobic at times simply because of how dense the number of potential directions of attack are at any given moment.

Theres a middle ground to find. Somewhere between holfimg too tight to tradition and pushing your new sexy feature way too hard.

Maybe its just me, but performance and br start issues aside, some of the fan made btb maps offer the best balance of old-school flow and new-school navigation in Halo 5. There are opportunities to clamber up and over stuff, but enough space to provide for the time and predictability you speak of.
 
I agree, but look at it from another perspective.

I think the mechanics of Halo evolved intelligently in Halo 5, but the map design failed to keep up.

I dont think its possible or wise to return to a Halo that restricts the freedom of movement that Halo 5 introduced, the map design simply needs to take a similar step forward in modernity of thinking and design.

I challenge you or anyone to resolve the map design problem in forge. We have the tools. As far as I can tell, it's impossible or unsatisfying without proper movement/ability tweaks. A frequent dillema I and others face is needing to make walls higher and sight lines much further than ever before. This creates a really awkward and bloated map proportionally and spatially. Stretching things out makes pistol combat terrible and would force players to remove themselves from proper map positioning to get a shot in. Now you have recreated the Halo 2 SMG start problem to an admittedly lesser degree. Heck, pros complain about the viability of the pistol already.

There are some great Halo 5 forge maps, but they all suffer the same problem in some capacity because of H5's highly exploitable movement mechanics. The shield sprint nerf only solves a small part of the problem, if it even does that.

I disagree with the thought that Halo 6 can't reign in the mechanics a bit. Halo 3 was slower and clunkier in a lot of ways and it was received very well. It wasn't fast and lethal like CE or H2 (post patch). It added weird equipment, but it added theater, forge, and an incredible custom game maker at launch. It actually regressed in terms of speed and gameplay, but it added new weapons and features that are loved and expected to this day. 343 didn't even deliver that with H5 (at launch).
 
I agree, but look at it from another perspective.

I think the mechanics of Halo evolved intelligently in Halo 5, but the map design failed to keep up.

I dont think its possible or wise to return to a Halo that restricts the freedom of movement that Halo 5 introduced, the map design simply needs to take a similar step forward in modernity of thinking and design.

Its not impossible to direct map flow for players with increased options. Its just more difficult. And yes, it may require design approaches that render 'traditional' Halo map design pillars obsolete.

But on the other end of the spectrum, there are some maps in Halo 5 like Empire, Rig and Plaza, that feel as if the entire design directive first and foremost was to give players as many opportunities to use the new movement abilities as much a possible. There's just such a density of geometry and telegraphed routes up, over and through said geometry, stuffed within what feels like incredibly tight quarters.

Im sure in sheer virtual meters squared, those maps are huge compared to Halo 3 arena maps. But they feel small amd claustrophobic at times simply because of how dense the number of potential directions of attack are at any given moment.

Theres a middle ground to find. Somewhere between holfimg too tight to tradition and pushing your new sexy feature way too hard.

Maybe its just me, but performance and br start issues aside, some of the fan made btb maps offer the best balance of old-school flow and new-school navigation in Halo 5. There are opportunities to clamber up and over stuff, but enough space to provide for the time and predictability you speak of.

I agree and I am willing to evolve level design with Halo 5 so long as the new mechanics and the sandbox are updated in tandem with that. I've played around with gametypes and found that a Quake like configuration with faster movement and strafe speed on top of additional thrusts makes the encounters and movement far more interesting. If nothing else changes, we need a more punishing starting weapon.

We've found that maps with very strict pathing, wider doors, and tighter vertical scaling play well in this game compared to more sprawled out and flat designs like Torque Additionally, teleporters are now preferred over man cannons because of how thrust changes their trajectory (and I'm glad for that, because you can get way more creative with teleporter locations and visuals).

In some ways, players are able to push level design that hearkens back to the original game, but without fall damage and a punishing starting weapon, the cadence is still broken easily.

I think more than anything we need a better spawning system.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Teleporters are cool. Too bad 343 doesn't believe in 'em, like some people around here.
You know who you are..

I'll stand up proudly and say teleporters should stay dead in early 2000s games, where they belong.

We have grab lifts and man cannons. No reason to create something that's easily camped and you have no situational awareness going through.



Yeah, try extortion there buddy. I'm sure that will get Microsoft on your side.
 
I'll stand up proudly and say teleporters should stay dead in early 2000s games, where they belong.

We have grab lifts and man cannons. No reason to create something that's easily camped and you have no situational awareness going through.




Yeah, try extortion there buddy. I'm sure that will get Microsoft on your side.

If it's easily camped it's a shit teleporter.
 
I agree and I am willing to evolve level design with Halo 5 so long as the new mechanics and the sandbox are updated in tandem with that. I've played around with gametypes and found that a Quake like configuration with faster movement and strafe speed on top of additional thrusts makes the encounters and movement far more interesting. If nothing else changes, we need a more punishing starting weapon.

We've found that maps with very strict pathing, wider doors, and tighter vertical scaling play well in this game compared to more sprawled out and flat designs like Torque Additionally, teleporters are now preferred over man cannons because of how thrust changes their trajectory (and I'm glad for that, because you can get way more creative with teleporter locations and visuals).

In some ways, players are able to push level design that hearkens back to the original game, but without fall damage and a punishing starting weapon, the cadence is still broken easily.

I think more than anything we need a better spawning system.

After playing Halo MCC for the passed few days i can honestly say that, as much as i loved what those games were, theyve become much too slow for me to really enjoy anymore. I couldnt go back to that.

I like where halo5 is. I agree with the other poster that the maps are the majority of the games problems and not the gameplay. Just need a proper evolution of those.
 
After playing Halo MCC for the passed few days i can honestly say that, as much as i loved what those games were, theyve become much too slow for me to really enjoy anymore. I couldnt go back to that.

I like where halo5 is. I agree with the other poster that the maps are the majority of the games problems and not the gameplay. Just need a proper evolution of those.

The game needs to get faster not slower.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I'll stand up proudly and say teleporters should stay dead in early 2000s games, where they belong.

We have grab lifts and man cannons. No reason to create something that's easily camped and you have no situational awareness going through.

.

Sounds to me like a great time to introduce portals.

Anyway, i think the intermingled issue with movement mechanics and Level design all center around sprint.

The implimentation leaves much to be desired. It's too easy to initiate and sustain a sprint. This lead to a map design approach that assumes (or encourages or requires) players to sprint often.

The simple solution is to remove sprint. But failing that it needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't allow Sprint to dictate how maps are designed:

If taking damage or changing direction knocked players out of sprint, then maps couldn't be designed with the assumption that it would be a common mode of transportation. Dev intended jumps could no longer require sprint. The maps couldn't be so stretched. Slide boosting and thrust bumping would be less likely to lead to unpredictable trajectories. Spartan Charge wouldn't be so stupidly unbalanced. And we wouldn't have an argument for Radar in competitive.
 
Is Halo 5 coming to PC at all?

There is a FREE version currently out on Windows 10.

This version houses Multiplayer, Forge, and server browser. There is no campaign nor matchmaking included, since this is a free version. No plans have been announced that the two features i mentioned will come to windows 10 in the future.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Actually I hope Halo 6 comes out next year so we can ride the Halo 5 update wave and hopefully get a framerate update. That at least will keep the core custom content community active despite the diminished support from 343.

I think it's safe to assume Halo 6 won't come out until Sep-Nov 2018. 3 year cycle. Until then we have Halo 5, Halo Wars 2, and hopefully a mega surprise of H3A. It would be cool to have H3A > H6 like we had H2A > H5.

In a perfect world I would have the following happen:

- Halo 5 continuing to get free updates every 3 months up until Halo 6.
- Halo Wars 2 releases and is super successful. (I have a feeling this will bomb)
- Halo 3 Anniversary is announced at E3.
- H3A will be added to the MCC, many of the games bugs and issues addressed in a mega patch, ported to PC.
- Halo 6 beta playable when you buy Crackdown 3, testing periods throughout 2018.
- Halo 6 launches on Xbox One, Scorpio, and PC in Fall 2018
- Halo Mega Bloks game actually gets released
 
idk guys - i feel like they wanted to be over with remasters/updates when they made MCC. like that was the end all be all legacy Halo titles. (missing reach)

I do not see any business reason to release Halo 3 Anniversary. (no $$$) And, isn't halo 2 and Halo 4 the most played in MCC MP anyway?

IF they did create H3A, they would have to incorporate the Anniversary upgrade within MCC so they don't remove the user experience with Halo on the xbox one. Especially with MP.

then here comes the reality. Ske7ch even has said MCC barely gets any talk and he had to bring it up himself to address the concerns he read. No hints on surprises or support for the MCC community.

it's a lost hope like
btb pistol starts :(
 
idk guys - i feel like they wanted to be over with remasters/updates when they made MCC. like that was the end all be all legacy Halo titles. (missing reach)

I do not see any business reason to release Halo 3 Anniversary. (no $$$) And, isn't halo 2 and Halo 4 the most played in MCC MP anyway?

IF they did create H3A, they would have to incorporate the Anniversary upgrade within MCC so they don't remove the user experience with Halo on the xbox one. Especially with MP.

then here comes the reality. Ske7ch even has said MCC barely gets any talk and he had to bring it up himself to address the concerns he read. No hints on surprises or support for the MCC community.

it's a lost hope like
btb pistol starts :(

Yeah it doesnt really make any sense to me either. MCC wasnt long enough ago to re-release another version of halo3. Hell, i dont want halo3 remastered, id rather they fix MCC or give me something original.

edit: BUT, release Halo3A in MCC and fix that at the same time? Id buy THAT for 1$.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Yeah it doesnt really make any sense to me either. MCC wasnt long enough ago to re-release another version of halo3. Hell, i dont want halo3 remastered, id rather they fix MCC or give me something original.

The campaign with non-derpy faces would be great, but the technical issues involved in doing a nice CEA/H2A style remaster, plus the fact that MCC still has remaining issues I'd rather they deal with first, makes me think they're better off with some H3 inspired REQs and moving on to the next polished game.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Implement The Dam as a Firefight arena, since it was the prototype for ODST's Firefight mode.

I liked how CEA DLC had the H1 campaign area as a FF arena, so they could select memorable sections from H3's campaign and do 'em up that way
 
The campaign with non-derpy faces would be great, but the technical issues involved in doing a nice CEA/H2A style remaster, plus the fact that MCC still has remaining issues I'd rather they deal with first, makes me think they're better off with some H3 inspired REQs and moving on to the next polished game.

I have little to no interest in buying another halo3, especially with the fact that im totally fine with whats in MCC.

edit: i mean what type of message does that even send? Oh you know that game we had that was busted and never fixed? Well heres a less complicated version of that. Thanks for the 80$. Screw that.
 

Haruko

Member
I have little to no interest in buying another halo3, especially with the fact that im totally fine with whats in MCC.

edit: i mean what type of message does that even send? Oh you know that game we had that was busted and never fixed? Well heres a less complicated version of that. Thanks for the 80$. Screw that.

Agreed. I don't need any more re-releases of CE-4; any effort that would go into that should just go into cleaning up the MCC.
 

belushy

Banned
H3A will be reduced to a content update called Memories of Halo 3, and will include H3 Rogue Armor and the H3BR and one Halo 4 map remake.
 

BizzyBum

Member

Increased XP and RP is awesome. No idea why they are applying double XP to Infection for the test, though. Would have preferred a normal playlist like Arena or Skirmish. Interested to see how much XP I can get using a Jackpot in Warzone now. The only thing they need to do now is sell req packs that have Legendary boosts exclusively or heavily increase the amount of Legendary boosts you get in Gold packs and I'll be set!

I wonder what that Firefight easter egg is...
 
Yeah, try extortion there buddy. I'm sure that will get Microsoft on your side.

Okay I'm seeing allot of comments like these and I can understand gamingGAF because they are about as intelligent and vicious as /v/ sometimes, but I thought HaloGAF would look more into it then what was posted in the other thread:

Read:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sph8su

Clearly trying to blackmail a billion-dollar corporation isn't gonna happen, but I felt like if I just did nothing then it would be over for sure. So, with everyone caught up I’m basically here to say that I’m not going to be selling anything and there still won’t be any story leaks for Halo Wars 2. I’m sorry to everyone for this roller-coaster including everyone at 343i, CA, and MS.

This clearly wont accomplish anything and was the product was blind rage and confusion. I won’t be posting anymore leaks of Halo Wars 2 and if Microsoft wants me to delete any backups they can reach out to me.

Sorry again to everyone, I didn't mean for it to get this crazy.

He was upset, I would be too and Microsoft does need more then a 1 shot-1 chance policy when it comes to recovering your accounts through banning. I knew allot of good legitimate players since I started on the 360 that lost accounts due to Microsoft's stupidity.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Okay I'm seeing allot of comments like these and I can understand gamingGAF because they are about as intelligent and vicious as /v/ sometimes, but I thought HaloGAF would look more into it then what was posted in the other thread:

Read:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sph8su



He was upset, I would be too and Microsoft does need more then a 1 shot-1 chance policy when it comes to recovering your accounts through banning. I knew allot of good legitimate players since I started on the 360 that lost accounts due to Microsoft's stupidity.

I looked into it. I don't give too many points for contrition after you got your ass burned.

Everyone has known for years that dealing with modded and leaked content is playing with fire. This isn't something surprising. Neither is the fact that your software licenses are on the line. (And at this point people should know that you never "own" the software you pay for. It's that way for digital, it's been that way for boxed games too. It's been like that since before I was born.)

Next time I steal something, I'll be sure to use the "but you didn't even lock the doors!" defense, that'll be sure to garner some sympathy.
 
I looked into it. I don't give too many points for contrition after you got your ass burned.

Everyone has known for years that dealing with modded and leaked content is playing with fire. This isn't something surprising. Neither is the fact that your software licenses are on the line. (And at this point people should know that you never "own" the software you pay for. It's that way for digital, it's been that way for boxed games too. It's been like that since before I was born.)

Next time I steal something, I'll be sure to use the "but you didn't even lock the doors!" defense, that'll be sure to garner some sympathy.

Gamecheat never messed with current builds of Halo games, its always been after they have been out for awhile and the publisher and developer don't give a real crap about said game anymore. Halo 5 Forge was the only current Halo game he ever tinkered with, but even then what he does doesn't effect vanilla gameplay of H5F and doesn't effect Halo 5 itself.

So other this this Halo Wars 2 incident, what else has he done to garner that much salt? or were you wording from a general standpoint? either way, he was upset and vented on twitter to do something, I can name cases similar that were in gaming in general. he didn't do it and accepts what Microsoft did.

And if you're talking about the general acquirement of getting Beta builds of video games and the legal grey in them, well thats a long discussion.
 
Rp and xp bumps is good news but man, this should have happened like 10 months ago, especially xp.

Also, infection gets the bonus xp? Sounds like another weird ass decision made by a higher up. Why not btb/skirmish/arena/etc?

Still, easing the brutal grinds in H5 is good, just hope it isn't too-little-too-late (not likely) for most folks.
 
Rp and xp bumps is good news but man, this should have happened like 10 months ago, especially xp.

Also, infection gets the bonus xp? Sounds like another weird ass decision made by a higher up. Why not btb/skirmish/arena/etc?

Still, easing the brutal grinds in H5 is good, just hope it isn't too-little-too-late (not likely) for most folks.

We need some Gears style x30 XP weekends. The XP grind is brutal. I'm dying bro.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Rp and xp bumps is good news but man, this should have happened like 10 months ago, especially xp.

Also, infection gets the bonus xp? Sounds like another weird ass decision made by a higher up. Why not btb/skirmish/arena/etc?

Still, easing the brutal grinds in H5 is good, just hope it isn't too-little-too-late (not likely) for most folks.

Sounds like they're trying the boosts in WZ and Infection first, and will probably roll it out uniformly 'ere long.

And if you're talking about the general acquirement of getting Beta builds of video games and the legal grey in them, well thats a long discussion.

I'm talking about his asinine "but they didn't even ship it in a protected appx format. What was I supposed to do, not crack it open?" defense.

He might be a great guy in the real world. He wasn't spending all his time hacking the game to film him shitting on unsuspecting people, so that's good. But you're saying that there shouldn't be consequences for saying outrageously stupid things on a public forum, and that I just can't agree with. He's reaping exactly what he has sown.
 

Karl2177

Member
I'm finally getting through to doing my Legendary playthrough of this game. There may or may not be a mega post incoming when I finish.
 
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