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Halo |OT 20| It really does feel like Halo

TTUVAPOR

Banned
You know, I even agree with you that someone saying the CE Pistol is overpowered shows a degree of unfamiliarity with the game, lack of perspective, or if nothing else an ignorance of how high level play functions. But... you could have just said that. Copying and pasting some weird tirade about scrubs wasn't helpful, lol.

Sirlin is pretty damn smart in my opinion. If you read his articles, they make a ton of sense.

One of things I disagree with in his articles is that taking advantage of a game's bug is a legit tactic.

While I agree that if the bug is there, it's free game for anyone to use it to win a game, but I have a morals thing personally to win that way. Perhaps there's a little bit of scrub in me because of that. I can't enjoy the win if the only way to win is to take advantage of a bug in a game or glitch...e.g., BXR and other notable glitches in Halo 2, I just don't use them. I like to play straight up.
 
YSLcaN7.gif
 
Did you guys even watch the videos? Firing quickly (NOT HOLDING) results in a significant spread in the PC version. That doesn't happen on the Xbox version.

Hmm...rewatched video and the tests aren't identical. The fact that he is shooting from so far away and still get's bullet spread doesn't convince me. Either way, I'm more ignorant of the PC version. Not sure I'm convinced by those videos.
 
What? What am I saying that's so wrong?

Anyone here a 90s kid? Did anyone of you play Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat in the old gaming arcades? You had to have come across someone who would complain and complain about getting beat over and over by someone repeating a single tactic over and over...this is what I'm getting at.

The people who complain about the HCE pistol simply do not understand how to defend themselves from it. They rush to calling it OP because they can't understand the inner workings of how to defend against it in HCE.

It's no different than if I called a Street Fighter player a cheap ass hole for spamming fire balls at me until I got beat. We gonna call the fireball in SF overpowered?

Not sure why I'm being jumped on by people when I'm simply stating facts here.

I had a buddy at my house last week watching the Texans get stomped by the Colts and when the Colts pulled their onside kick in the first quarter and their own damn kick recovered the onside kick leaving the Texans completely stunned...my buddy's response was "well that was a cheap ass move". I'm like...no it's not, he did a legitimate play in the game and was damn smart and bad ass to pull it off.

I guess in that scenario, onside kicks in the first quarter of NFL games are OP.
Um, you do realize that you're displaying a lot of scrub mentality in this post, right?
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
You know, I even agree with you that someone saying the CE Pistol is overpowered shows a degree of unfamiliarity with the game, lack of perspective, or if nothing else an ignorance of how high level play functions. But... you could have just said that. Copying and pasting some weird tirade about scrubs wasn't helpful, lol.

After thinking about it, maybe it's not so much that I think the pistol is overpowered, and more that the overall weapon sandbox is not as great as future games. Future games introduced some shitty stuff in that regards, sure, but in Halo CE when your only option for doing some mid to long range shooting was a sniper or a pistol, but you had multiple short range options, it just seems odd. Like maybe the big maps were conceived after the weapon sandbox was set.

I don't know, can we just play all of this already?
 

BigShow36

Member
Your post makes sense. My whole deal is that when CE matches boil down to people pinging each other with scoped pistols the entirety of a match it seems like something needs to change. Maybe the gun isn't OP, maybe the entire weapon sandbox was off-kilter. Regardless, I'm curious to see the Halo CE weapon stats when this collection comes out, I think it'll be very pistol-heavy, which seems unbalanced to me.

13 year old game with the multiplayer mode made by what, 3 people? Still a hell of a lot of fun overall, despite my minor qualms with the pistol/weapon sandbox.

Soccer is unbalanced because all of the goals happen with the same ball.
 

Sephzilla

Member
After thinking about it, maybe it's not so much that I think the pistol is overpowered, and more that the overall weapon sandbox is not as great as future games. Future games introduced some shitty stuff in that regards, sure, but in Halo CE when your only option for doing some mid to long range shooting was a sniper or a pistol, but you had multiple short range options, it just seems odd. Like maybe the big maps were conceived after the weapon sandbox was set.

I don't know, can we just play all of this already?

Pretty much this. The pistol feels like an overpowered weapon because it's the only mid to long range normal weapon in the game. If the battle rifle and/or carbine were present in Halo 1 people's perceptions about the pistol might be different since everybody wouldn't be clinging to one weapon. It's one part perception and one part reality. Reality = it is the best overall weapon in the game and the only real counter to it is itself. Perception of this is enhanced because since it's the only weapon of its type in the game, people cling to it.
 

Ramirez

Member
The best thing to come out of this is that BigShow, the king of competitive opinion, used a damn controller playing Halo PC.

X7uAr2N.jpg
 
After thinking about it, maybe it's not so much that I think the pistol is overpowered, and more that the overall weapon sandbox is not as great as future games. Future games introduced some shitty stuff in that regards, sure, but in Halo CE when your only option for doing some mid to long range shooting was a sniper or a pistol, but you had multiple short range options, it just seems odd. Like maybe the big maps were conceived after the weapon sandbox was set.

I don't know, can we just play all of this already?
Yup, exactly. Many CE maps were designed around local play, 2v2's, smaller-sized games. This is why I think Halo 5's 2v2/4v4 map design should focus on 2v2 gameplay. Maps like Midship, Lockout, most of CE's maps, Guardian, The Pit, etc.

EDIT:
Pretty much this. The pistol feels like an overpowered weapon because it's the only mid to long range normal weapon in the game. If the battle rifle and/or carbine were present in Halo 1 people's perceptions about the pistol might be different since everybody wouldn't be clinging to one weapon.
Yeah and when you consider how much the BR was used over weapons that should be useful, like the automatics, you begin to question if these people even really played CE lol.
 
Soccer is unbalanced because all players rely on kicking for the majority of their scoring and are also tier 3 ass scrubs who don't afraid of anything just as long as they can toggle their ESPN leaderboards.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
Wait did I miss something? They finally confirmed that Halo 1 is built off the PC code? Bout damn time. I could tell that they were using pc code last gen with H1A. When playing I saw several things which were only on the pc version like when going up out of the map on the Halo level it would stall the warthog and not allow you to move. That only happened on PC. Then the way the cursors etc in menus were very sensitive like they were when trying to use a controller on the PC. Then of course other things pointed out in the thread too. So yea to hear the multiplayer is also built on the PC code doesn't surprise me either.

To be honest it doesn't bother me either as long as they're honest about it. I played tons of Halo on the PC with my 360 controller and have had a blast. I just want deadzones to be done right so there isn't drift the way there is on the pc since there was no deadzone settings.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The weapon is not overpowered in terms of fairness or symmetry, it is unexpectedly powerful and initially, ill-documented.

During early LANs, lots of folks knew the pistol's "secret" and used/abused it. Then the other players figured it out. Balance was restored.

Elements of that "secret" will be repeated when the game launches, but folks will have better tools and feedback to understand the bullety injustice being visited upon their domes.


"Scrub" is an insult aimed (perhaps unintentionally) at the vast majority of Halo fans (and imagine what kind of game you'd have if it were ONLY designed for elite level players) and reduces the level of discourse, makes for an unwelcoming thread and is an embarrassing term for an adult to use as an insult, except in jest.

The pistol's massive utility certainly means that in certain matches, the sandbox is largely ignored. Is that a problem? Not if everyone is having fun.

the end
 

TTUVAPOR

Banned
Thoughts on this HaloGaf, I think it deserves a read:
http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-master-chief-collection-discussion/?p=291002

chaostheory said:
There has been no one on the internet more actively and consistently extolling the good qualities of Halo CE than me over the last 10 years. No one.

This is for everyone who has posted in the last 15 pages.

- 343 was not forthcoming with us.

- People who are mad are naive.

- People who are mad at those who are mad are, frankly, assholes.

The people who are upset had hope. They really wanted the xbox experience with shot lead, etc. Many of them, including myself, have been lanning Halo CE for the last 10+ years. I still have two big ass CRT televisions in my small condo for this game. It's a pain in the ass dealing with CRTs and craigslist for used boxes and ebay. I have four xboxes and 16 controllers. I do it all for this game and most of my good friends feel the same way. I have a good friend who said he would be pissed if they even removed the lip in the Hang em high trench. He made Maptacular, one of the best H1 vids if not the very best h1 vid of all time.

We love this game. Not like "oh ya I used to have fun with this game with friends sometimes" WE. LOVE. THIS. GAME.

Every detail is important. We love every detail about the experience and 343 said it would be "just as we remembered it." So a lot of people got really hopeful that that would be true. 343 never mentioned HPC, not once, they said "just as you remembered it." That misled a lot of these people. Halo PC is a fundamentally different game as far as mechanics and even visuals are concerned. For relatively casual players, those difference are negligible. For the people who can name every spawn point in Priz off the top of their head like I and hundreds of other people can, these differences are HUGE. So when people say "back to OG boxes" they're not babies, they're going back to what they LOVE. They CAN see this game is different from just a few seconds of gameplay. I know I could. It was immediately obvious.

I happen to work for a software company. I know how they work. I knew as soon as I thought about it that they would probably just be using Halo PC. You can go back through my posts to the week of the announcement. I said it would probably be Halo PC. "Man, I'm tired of being right!" is a quote that comes to mind. I called this months ago and totally saw it coming. So those who chose to believe they were going to get the true xbox h1 experience were a little naive but I have nothing but sympathy for them because I understand how they feel. It feels like losing an oddball game by 1 second. It's heartbreaking.

All you people who havent played lots of timed h1 2v2s simply don't get it - and you're being assholes for calling them babies and wondering why they're not happy. This very likely is not going to be what we fell in love with. It'll be close, and it'll be fun, but it's not what we were told it would be. It's not "just as we remember it."

I may have seen this coming, and I will probably play it a ton and have plenty of fun with it, but this is not going to be the same Halo CE experience that I've been praising for a decade of my life. That said, it will likely still be the single best Halo experience that's ever been on Xbox live. I'm not really happy today, but I will play the hell out of the game. I will buy MCC readily. I will also continue to LAN Halo CE on the original hardware.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
Could also be a visual and perception thing too. You typically are used to having rifles do good damage at medium to long range in games, but you're usually of the understanding that a pistol is meant for short range combat (and possibly mid range) so when you die from a pistol coming from the other side of Blood Gultch it messes with your head. That, paired with the pistol being the ONLY mid/long range gun (outside of the sniper, which is a power weapon) it feels wrong.

This may be a weird and bad way of looking at the game but it's there. No other options + your only option being a gun that's typically used for short-range combat, equals people having issues with the gun and sandbox.

Maybe if it had been a BR in Halo 1 instead of the pistol this wouldn't even be a conversation. I don't even know anymore.
 

BigShow36

Member
While I agree that the Halo CE pistol wasn't really OP, that's a really terrible analogy.

Not really. The point is that people get caught up with the fact that the pistol is extremely prevalent in the game, as if that has any bearing whatsoever on the balance. How often a weapon is used or not used is irrelevant to the overall balance of the game. What that weapon allows you to do and how a player uses it is what matters.

Having weapon "counters" does not make a game more skillful or balanced, it makes the game results more circumstantial, akin to rock-paper-scissors. If your concept of balance revolves around having a broader variety of weapon skins, I think you're missing the point.

The best thing to come out of this is that BigShow, the king of competitive opinion, used a damn controller playing Halo PC.

X7uAr2N.jpg

Damn straight. I wasn't about to soil Halo CE with a KB/M. I have an extremely taboo opinion KB/M.
 

HTupolev

Member
I listened on my phone so I'm not sure, were those CEA sound effects in the CE MP footage? :/

And why are they reusing that CEA HUD? It's not as clear as the original, and the text and icons all look like they've been shoved through one of those ugly VSM filters from old Trinitrons.

I want online CE console MP really badly, but it seems like everything that could possibly be messed up is messed up, and then some.

When playing I saw several things which were only on the pc version like when going up out of the map on the Halo level it would stall the warthog and not allow you to move. That only happened on PC.
No, the blue beam freeze is present in the oXbox version.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
The weapon is not overpowered in terms of fairness or symmetry, it is unexpectedly powerful and initially, ill-documented.

During early LANs, lots of folks knew the pistol's "secret" and used/abused it. Then the other players figured it out. Balance was restored.

Elements of that "secret" will be repeated when the game launches, but folks will have better tools and feedback to understand the bullety injustice being visited upon their domes.


"Scrub" is an insult aimed (perhaps unintentionally) at the vast majority of Halo fans (and imagine what kind of game you'd have if it were ONLY designed for elite level players) and reduces the level of discourse, makes for an unwelcoming thread and is an embarrassing term for an adult to use as an insult, except in jest.

The pistol's massive utility certainly means that in certain matches, the sandbox is largely ignored. Is that a problem? Not if everyone is having fun.

the end

Maybe I'm a freak but I agree that the pistol certainly wasn't overpowered. Maybe I really did luck out. I was always able to put up a fight and win against pistol users using any weapon from the sandbox except maybe shotgun unless in close with it. Either way I can't wait to play it with the pistol and all.
 

BigShow36

Member
I was under the impression that scrub was a technical term, not a derogatory label.

scrub
noun, often attributive \ˈskrəb\

1: pertaining to those who claimed SMG starts were balanced.
2: having the opinion of, or having held in the past, that the Halo CE pistol was overpowered.
3: a multiplayer balance designer employed at Bungie or 343 studios.
 
Not really. The point is that people get caught up with the fact that the pistol is extremely prevalent in the game, as if that has any bearing whatsoever on the balance. How often a weapon is used or not used is irrelevant to the overall balance of the game. What that weapon allows you to do and how a player uses it is what matters.

Having weapon "counters" does not make a game more skillful or balanced, it makes the game results more circumstantial, akin to rock-paper-scissors. If your concept of balance revolves around having a broader variety of weapon skins, I think you're missing the point.

What makes the analogy terrible is that there is only one ball in soccer. There are no other options to neglect.

And there are absolutely weapon counters in CE; that's the only reason you see any other non-power weapon get used at all. In special circumstances, the other parts of the sandbox can beat out the pistol. Although, I will admit...

Could also be a visual and perception thing too.

... that I do feel a little bit of this. I understand, intellectually, that the pistol really isn't "OP," in the traditional sense, but it just looks so... scrawny. Still, that's not really the salient point.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
scrub
noun, often attributive \ˈskrəb\

1: pertaining to those who claimed SMG starts were balanced.
2: having the opinion of, or having held in the past, that the Halo CE pistol was overpowered.
3: a multiplayer balance designer employed at Bungie or 343 studios.

So basically the person who put that NOT overpowered Halo CE pistol you love into the game and verified it was balanced is a scrub? So they were wrong?

I don't know what to believe anymore.
 

BigShow36

Member
And there are absolutely weapon counters in CE; that's the only reason you see any other non-power weapon get used at all. In special circumstances, the other parts of the sandbox can beat out the pistol. Although, I will admit...

Absolutely, but the weapon counters didn't determine the outcome of every firefight, like they do in later Halo games. There were role-specific weapons and the utility weapon.
 
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