It's their game, of course they get final say. But when you see stuff like the Zealot spawn trap, Over's Sanctuary remake not replacing Asylum, and the countless flat out bad forge maps in MM, you have to question why they have the CC's there in the first place.
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Halo |OT10| The Calm Before The Storm
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
It's their game, of course they get final say. But when you see stuff like the Zealot spawn trap, Over's Sanctuary remake not replacing Asylum, and the countless flat out bad forge maps in MM, you have to question why they have the CC's there in the first place.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
I don't think that's fair.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Forge maps. The developers can't possibly look at them all. So they ask a small group of people to look at them for them.
So instead of thousands of maps, the group brings dozens, all initially pre-tested by hundreds of players already before any developer sees them.
So say the developer looks at the dozen maps. They internally playtest them and put them through a battery of processes that determine their eligibility. The developer communicates to this small group some of the important things these maps need to pass the internal tests.
The group then works with the map creators or sometimes work on the maps themselves to ensure they meet the tougher technical requirements.
CC's spend dozens of hours working on maps to get them polished.
Then the developer needs to decide if the MM environment can accommodate them. This then adds into the usual playlist management workload.
The base fact is the CC's enable the developers to look at community content that, realistically, they wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I'm 100% sure the CC's have successfully done that, with both Bungie and 343i.
I'm not saying the end results are perfect but the CC has done what has been asked of them and because they come from the community, the CC's are open to criticism and open improvment in a way that the developers cannot be.
Pop
Member
So what you're saying is your mad cause there's not enough color. But there's clearly color around the edges of the objects. Maybe they should have gave us lego blocks, you guys would have been thrilled then.
Fair points all around. I wasn't trying to turn this into a CC bash night, the process is largely a mystery to me. All I can go on is the results that ended up in Reach MM, and I think we all can agree that if 4 sees similar results, it will be disappointing to say the least.
Bregmann Roche
Member
This is not much of a defense, but there are more than a few forge maps that I would rate higher than The Cage, Paradiso, Boneyard, Spire, Sword Base, Hemorrhage, Solitary, and High Noon.
I agree with Ram and many others that there are several lingering issues with Reach MM maps that should've been fixed months ago. I will also agree that Over's Sanctuary should be in MM now.
Yes. I'm probably overly optimistic about the Halo 4 MP sustain team at 343, but if MM support is the same as Reach's that would be inexcusable.
I agree with Ram and many others that there are several lingering issues with Reach MM maps that should've been fixed months ago. I will also agree that Over's Sanctuary should be in MM now.
Yes. I'm probably overly optimistic about the Halo 4 MP sustain team at 343, but if MM support is the same as Reach's that would be inexcusable.
Can any of the CC's explain why this never made it in? Asylum is one of the worst maps in the game as far as performance, so I feel like replacing it with a better version should have been a no brainer.
I'd like to see the community map selection process be revised in this way, but I don't know how practical this method would be:
"Community Battle" playlist started soon after launch: 5v5 Obj/Slayer playlist, all community maps
1) Community Cartographers choose maps from various communities, as they normally would
2) Initiate playtests among the Cartographers/players who submitted them
3) If the map is playable, it enters beta phase. Map goes into Community Battle Playlist
4) Let the matchmaking population do the main playtesting for 343. Players offer feedback, bring up bugs, etc
5) After a map is debugged/improved upon/tweaked in any way (if it even needs to be) and is back in the playlist, use a combination of how often said map is voted for, player feedback, and Cartographer opinion to determine whether it is a map that can fit in standard matchmaking.
edit: Seriously, Refuge should've been in matchmaking the day Over finished it. One of the biggest head scratchers of Reach's lifetime.
"Community Battle" playlist started soon after launch: 5v5 Obj/Slayer playlist, all community maps
1) Community Cartographers choose maps from various communities, as they normally would
2) Initiate playtests among the Cartographers/players who submitted them
3) If the map is playable, it enters beta phase. Map goes into Community Battle Playlist
4) Let the matchmaking population do the main playtesting for 343. Players offer feedback, bring up bugs, etc
5) After a map is debugged/improved upon/tweaked in any way (if it even needs to be) and is back in the playlist, use a combination of how often said map is voted for, player feedback, and Cartographer opinion to determine whether it is a map that can fit in standard matchmaking.
edit: Seriously, Refuge should've been in matchmaking the day Over finished it. One of the biggest head scratchers of Reach's lifetime.
User 73932
Banned
"Oh Louis"
I agree with you. There are over and under represented communities. Both you and I (and 343) knows this. They made a few changes when it transitioned from Bungie to 343 and I expect the same to happen in the transition from Reach-4. Hell, irl issues may change a CC's activity or willingness/ability to participate in a way they once were able to. But you know that isn't up to us.
With regards to Over's asylum map; I think a lot of the problems that stacked up against it compared to other maps is that the authors (and most playtesters/observers) demanded that it replace Asylum across the board... which obviously has a much more significant impact (on multiple playlists) than just adding a new map to one playlist. While it may appear to be the superior map, you have to research every playlist that would be affected by this change and ensure it doesn't create more problems than it solved. I loved the map as well and was one of the supporters, but it was a special circumstance as compared to every single other map that has been added to MM.
Hitmonchan107
Member
Congrats! Be safe.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I agree with your points here. Although if there was no official 343i approval process I think bad things would get through even more. I think what we see here is a lack of updates to those maps/settings/spawns in a timely fashion. Hopefully with the next generation console and I assume a new xbox live version along with it we'll see faster updates/patches/matchmaking changes and certification processes.
Since Halo 2 I've always posted on the developer forums about the need for faster turnaround to their matchmaking playlists and settings. It's paramount to retaining the freshness and installed player base while potentially attracting newer players too. Simple things just like Zealot spawn trap issues should be resolved in weeks NOT months. To me it's the mark of slow updates moreover than the actual selection process or criteria. Same goes for oddball on Swordbase. I really am tired of it and personally believe it should be removed. Same goes for crazy king and stockpile for me.
Although I think what I proposed here with "Original Thread For Player Choice of Gametypes & Maps" exceeds such a CC/forge matchmaking system anyhow. It caters for individual choice within the existing matchmaking framework. For example you could simply toggle off the map Zealot until spawn issues were fixed.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
A simple playlist for testing that brings up a vote system for settings, map layout, gametype etc. So all players who complete a game get to vote on 5-10 of the major criteria with 5 star ratings on each point.
Pretty simple really.
*HELP!!!!*
Are there any retailers left still taking pre-orders on the Halo4 LE? I lagged and didn't place my pre-order at GS and now they're all saying that they're not taking anymore pre-orders or getting any extra copies at launch.
Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while...
Are there any retailers left still taking pre-orders on the Halo4 LE? I lagged and didn't place my pre-order at GS and now they're all saying that they're not taking anymore pre-orders or getting any extra copies at launch.
Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while...
Zealot's situation is unfortunate. A prime example of something just falling through the cracks.
As for updates, I don't think they'll ever go past once a month. In terms of test lead time, and Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" corporate culture. As a company, every division is geared towards updating on that first Tuesday of the month. Guess what time each month Bungie and 343 updated Halo playlists?
As for updates, I don't think they'll ever go past once a month. In terms of test lead time, and Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" corporate culture. As a company, every division is geared towards updating on that first Tuesday of the month. Guess what time each month Bungie and 343 updated Halo playlists?
Bregmann Roche
Member
To be tired of Oddball Swordbase is to be tired of the very essence of Reach...oh wait. I see.
Hydranockz
Member
How does this work? How does 343 filter the good feedback from the bad?
Also, who would offer feedback on a map up for testing that isn't already a forger or someone who helps playtest for the CCs as is?
This is a fair argument lol
FourDoor I'm in the same boat bro. Apparently Target and Walmart still are.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Zealot's situation is unfortunate. A prime example of something just falling through the cracks.
As for updates, I don't think they'll ever go past once a month. In terms of test lead time, and Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" corporate culture. As a company, every division is geared towards updating on that first Tuesday of the month. Guess what time each month Bungie and 343 updated Halo playlists?
This needs to change. Either introduce a playlist for finding custom games with a rating/review system that brings the popular ones to the top or invest resources in faster iterations for matchmaking.
Isn't this similar to the Community BTB playlist idea, just with more Cartographer involvement (not saying that last part's a bad thing)? I'm not 100% sure on all of these, but that process led to absolute, complete hot smelly trash like Renegade and the current shitty perf Wayont being added to the core BTB playlist. Some stinkers will always fall in.
I dunno how to make Forge matchmaking selections easier for any of the parties involved, since I frankly don't know what the processes are. I feel like more transparency could certainly alleviate some of the issues on this end, though.
This, on paper, makes the most sense to those reading it. It still seems like a good option from my perspective even after many discussions covering this exact process in the past. The issue is, a beta playlist is still a Matchmaking playlist. This represents what 343 is offering as an option in Matchmaking for paying customers. Having a "beta" playlist that could potentially include serious game-breaking issues (or other issues all together) on a map because it didn't run through a gauntlet like other MM-adds would have is a pretty serious issue to begin with. "Playable" isn't a self-regulating credential for a map that should be added to Matchmaking. It has to be much more than that to be offered in Matchmaking playlists offered up by the developer. Not all players know what a "beta" playlist is or how it would have come to exist and they would certainly hold 343 responsible for the content within.
PS: There are many other 'serious' concerns when reviewing a map other than performance alone.
Edit: Also, maps can't also just be added/removed/tweaked as they get votes. Switches, levers and shit.
Bregmann Roche
Member
I wouldn't blame the process entirely for that. BTB was in such sorry shape that I would imagine Bungie/343/CCs were desperate to populate it with marginally useful maps ASAP. The patient was DOA anyways, but the urgency at least explains the terrible maps.
Things were so dire for BTB at launch that I believe Countdown saw some time in the rotation.
User 73932
Banned
Anybody have an extra astro mixamp? I'd pay monies n' stuff.
Thanks Tashi! Walmart online looks like they still are but not Target. Checking out now...
I'm guessing Target and Walmart aren't offering any special pre-order bonuses?
Except people are lazy and that ranking wouldn't work.
There was an article feedback tool we deployed on the English Wikipedia that asked people to rate from 1-5 the article they had read based on comprehensiveness, quality, etc. But the results were garbage. People either 1-starred everything or 5-starred everything. Better to have a "was this helpful" binary choice.
Sure, I'm not placing the blame anywhere, I'm just saying that sometimes bad things will slip through no matter what. No disrespect to anyone involved -- like I said, I don't know anything about the process, I'm sure they're doing what they can.
Frankly, in the case of Reach given how atrocious it was for so long, I think they should have just axed Big Team entirely until they were ready to populate it with maps that were worth a damn. Cut it down to 6v6 so more base maps could be used or something. Because until stuff that was decent like Abridged and even Lam Lam were appearing regularly, that playlist was just unbearable (and has circled around to that same state again, thanks Heavies!).
It appears to be a step above Reach's, just like Reach's was a big step above Halo 3's version. Still, it's mainly an editor that is limited by object count and can be influenced fairly well by how the terrain is built. In each Forge space I've seen, I didn't like either location. Bunch of hills, creeks, whatever. Where is the large flat surfaces? I don't care if it's snow, grass, or sand, but it's helluva lot better than building around uneven ground.
Wasn't so much that, but putting the maps in just for the hell of it. It screams "it needs variety", aka the reason for Team Snipers on Headlong being in Anny Classic.
They shipped with two Forged BTB maps and two maps jammed in from Invasion. Four is great if the quality isn't bad (which in this case, it was, and that's on Bungie).
You could gather feedback with a variety of methods. Look at various gaming forums, such as this, HBO, THC, FUD, anything like that. Just in here, we have literally thousands of posts that provide feedback from a plethora of different perspectives (not saying halogaf itself should have input, just using this as an example).
Doesn't Waypoint have pages for each map? Make a community maps page, threads dedicated to these maps, etc.
Again, I don't know if this would actually work. I'm not digging at the Cartographers either. It seems like they mainly offer suggestions to 343, and they have the final say. I don't blame any of Reach's matchmaking problems on CCs at all.
Are you guys allowed to talk about the map selection/revision process in depth? I love behind-the-scenes stuff like this
No, what I am saying is global tinting its unlikely to be in the game, and you need to LURK MOAR before you go on accusing people of shit:
The original Bungie plan was to have the Community playlists be the incubator for maps. Community selections would go there first, more maps could be thrown in since they'd only be up for a week (so no need to worry if a map had some sort of glitch or problem - it'd be gone in a couple of days anyway).
The transition happened, and Bungie had to kill the Community playlist concept and started putting maps directly into matchmaking near the end, because their last updates were basically with the mindset "if Reach never gets updated again, we're at least going to give the existing playlists updates for when it goes into autopilot", since nobody knew what 343 was going to do with Reach after the handoff. This is about the point the submissions became mostly CC instead of Forgetacular submissions.
It could have maybe been done under 343's watch but their Anniversary update put Reach at the playlist cap, and honestly, it didn't seem like they were given the bandwidth to create Community playlists every month judging by the updates we got. Instead of precision changes, changes became universal and heavy handed, globally applied.
- Instead of beta testing TU changes like they originally said, the TU settings were pushed into the entirety of matchmaking, and all the changes were included at the same time.
- Initially, we had the problem where you didn't know what pistol you had in a gametype until you tried to kill someone with it. At this point, people had a choice between TU and non-TU within the same lists. People asked them to label the gametypes. 343 did this. And then made playlists globally TU or non TU at the same time, defeating the point of labeling the gametypes.
- Instead of altering loadouts at the playlist level, Evade was simply removed from every single playlist. Including Action Sack. Which had gametypes that were made with Evade in mind. In Invasion Skirmish, this resulted (and is still like this) in your loadout progression going backwards, because the Evade loadout had the AR in the first phase and the DMR in the second, so now it goes DMR -> AR. Since it was "Take Evade off Spartans", Elites retain their extra loadouts since they retain Evade in Invasion Skirmish.
The transition happened, and Bungie had to kill the Community playlist concept and started putting maps directly into matchmaking near the end, because their last updates were basically with the mindset "if Reach never gets updated again, we're at least going to give the existing playlists updates for when it goes into autopilot", since nobody knew what 343 was going to do with Reach after the handoff. This is about the point the submissions became mostly CC instead of Forgetacular submissions.
It could have maybe been done under 343's watch but their Anniversary update put Reach at the playlist cap, and honestly, it didn't seem like they were given the bandwidth to create Community playlists every month judging by the updates we got. Instead of precision changes, changes became universal and heavy handed, globally applied.
- Instead of beta testing TU changes like they originally said, the TU settings were pushed into the entirety of matchmaking, and all the changes were included at the same time.
- Initially, we had the problem where you didn't know what pistol you had in a gametype until you tried to kill someone with it. At this point, people had a choice between TU and non-TU within the same lists. People asked them to label the gametypes. 343 did this. And then made playlists globally TU or non TU at the same time, defeating the point of labeling the gametypes.
- Instead of altering loadouts at the playlist level, Evade was simply removed from every single playlist. Including Action Sack. Which had gametypes that were made with Evade in mind. In Invasion Skirmish, this resulted (and is still like this) in your loadout progression going backwards, because the Evade loadout had the AR in the first phase and the DMR in the second, so now it goes DMR -> AR. Since it was "Take Evade off Spartans", Elites retain their extra loadouts since they retain Evade in Invasion Skirmish.
I think like Armor skins or weapon skins but that's about it.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Sure I understand the mechanics of what you're talking about and I agree somewhat but it's a different demographic and data set. Further your voting can be wildly skewed by crawlers and bots etc.
I don't pretend to have the exact answer for this but the CC members and players that would frequent such a playlist aren't going to be your everyday casual. They may trial the playlist but the hardcore players who vote correctly are going to make up the larger population with such a playlist/rating system.
Further basic statistics calculations dictates you should chop off the upper & lower positive/negative values for more relevant statistics without the "spam" that you mention. Wikipedia is a hugely different population to a specific game with a specific playlist and purpose.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
There is nothing wrong with taking the existing CC community and restricting access to them and their friends for this play testing playlist, who says it even has to be publicly available? This would help ensure dedicated players and accurate reviews while keeping the public matchmaking experience A-grade with respect to working maps and gametypes etc.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
All of those points are accurate but simply describe the clusterfuck that Reach became in terms of settings and playlists. I still hate going into a game and having to check what settings I'm playing with then wait for my game to come back to me...then just have to revert back in the next game I play.
At least Halo 4 will streamline settings and playlists so we don't have the clusterfuck all over again. Although even with Reach my simply player toggle of maps/gametypes would have catered so a player could simply toggle on/off TU settings or not. Thereby reducing their clusterfuck to what they like but keeping them in pools to matchmake from.
Thanks. Ordered H4LE from Walmart. Hopefully it comes in early. I'm used to going to midnight launches to pick up Halo.
*back to going dark until launch*
I can't tell you whether there is something wrong with that or not as it isn't my place to decide. However, I could gather every friend I've got along with every friend/acquaintance I've ever had and get them to test with me and it wouldn't touch the numbers of players it would see in Matchmaking on day 1. Or even hour 1. We will never be able to catch things that 100's of thousands of players can catch in the same time frame (or in any time frame for that matter).
Plus imagine the salt.
@ frac; I'm not in a place to discuss it unfortunately
Thanks. Ordered H4LE from Walmart. Hopefully it comes in early. I'm used to going to midnight launches to pick up Halo.
*back to going dark until launch*
No in store pick up huh? That sucks.
Deputy Moonman
Member
Gone all day and of course more forge news comes out today... I like the new environments (at least Impact) and think forge looks like a slight improvement over Reach, but having the same exact building blocks with no colors or optional textures is a complete drop of the ball imo (assuming 343 doesn't surprise us in the near future). I see the same exact boring maps being made where Reach left off. Dynamic lightning alone can't improve pure grey everywhere. I want texture options (brick, concrete, clay, etc.) dangit.
It's basically a night-time map. It's supposed to be dark, which automatically reduces contrast. I like the idea. An after dark map is something a lot of people have thought would be interesting.
Hitting that Tashi posting ceiling, I see...
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
1. That is the conundrum; open it to the public for huge feedback and statistics or keep it small, accurate and manageable.
2. The salt isn't any different to how it is now, I've no idea how to become a CC member and neither does the average joe matchmaking player as of now. It's no different to the current system. Cry babies gonna cry.
I should be editing my responses into one reply post
I'm not a hugely active member here but I do like the content you guys'n'gals bring to Halo discussions.Im_So_Pringles
Member
Whenever the usage of color comes up in forge discussions, I can't help but think the minimalist approach used in the Mirror's Edge DLC looked fucking great.
A little splash of color with a fully tinted block here and there would go a huge way in making a map better on the eyes. Even if it were just one single block, that just came in different colors. Placing them around the map would break up the grey and white and add splashes of color. Also, having lighting like that helps, I guess. Hahahahaha
A little splash of color with a fully tinted block here and there would go a huge way in making a map better on the eyes. Even if it were just one single block, that just came in different colors. Placing them around the map would break up the grey and white and add splashes of color. Also, having lighting like that helps, I guess. Hahahahaha
Whenever the usage of color comes up in forge discussions, I can't help but think the minimalist approach used in the Mirror's Edge DLC looked fucking great.
A little splash of color with a fully tinted block here and there would go a huge way in making a map better on the eyes. Even if it were just one single block, that just came in different colors. Placing them around the map would break up the grey and white and add splashes of color. Also, having lighting light that helps, I guess. Hahahahaha
Ha! I was actually going to mention Mirror's Edge DLC but opted not to for no reason. Great minds something something...
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Just thought I'd post this here for those that may be interested...
Some community members (called Potaku) from Kotaku Australia went to EB Expo in Sydney, Australia and interviewed Josh Holmes.
Kotaku Video Link
A big thanks to ShiggyNinty and Doc What from Potaku/Kotaku for the content.
Some community members (called Potaku) from Kotaku Australia went to EB Expo in Sydney, Australia and interviewed Josh Holmes.
Kotaku Video Link
A big thanks to ShiggyNinty and Doc What from Potaku/Kotaku for the content.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Dat 11/10?
Der Flatulator
Member
Surely it would be that much memory... 3 floats for the position vector, 4 floats for the orientation quaternion.
That's 7 * 32 = 224B = 28 bytes for each piece. I guess it could stack up with 100 objects (280 bytes), plus all the other properties each object has (most likely bit-flags).
It's got to be compressed anyway, from Euler angle -> Quaternion is only + 1 float.
CreateNowSleepLater
Member
trying to catch up on things, did I read now that you no longer pick up nades from dead players without a perk?
Im_So_Pringles
Member
I've always been extremely impartial to the visual design and fidelity of this DLC. I loved the minimalist approach so much actually that I based many of my own mod maps for various PC games off of it
If all forge maps looked like that, even with just flat colored blocks and great lighting, the color variance and the way the blocks were used/placed would go farther in terms of originality than what we have now.
But that's just my opinion, of course.