Reagan's BR
Banned
Kyle is back.
Agreed. The colors don't worry me as much as how the map plays.
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Halo |OT10| The Calm Before The Storm
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Kyle is back.
xxjuicesxx
Member
Vote for me, I'm sassy.
I had you in mind since you said you would be interested in doing it.
We, as in the whole of the Halo community. Have 2-3 representatives from each large community (GAF, HBO, Waypoint).
I would vote for people who were actively playing the MP & had a greater understanding of what makes the game play well. The abominations that I played in Reach showed me that whoever was picking them had no clue on what made a map good. Also, if those maps were truly the best of the best, then I'm back to the feeling that forge maps simply don't belong beside dev made maps.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
This building is not made with forge pieces.
How do I know? It did not disappear along with the forge pieces when Kynan pressed the delete all button. It did not appear to be a locked forge piece when he hovered over it either.
It is almost certainly a part of the base map and has pre-baked GI Lightmaps.
and
My hope would be that they would allow us to have more point/spot lights of any arbitrary intensity/size/color with added options for selectively disabling/enabling specular, diffuse and ambient contributions. In addition, negative lights would allow forge artists to mimic the effects of ambient occlusion, a lot better than the typical SSAO even.
That, time and some patience is all you need really to make lighting that looks comparable to the baked GI that they have on their official disc maps.
Here is an example that a fellow polycounter made inside of cryengine 3 as part of a lighting study. This is only using a large number of point/spot-lights without shadows enabled, he is creating the soft-shadowed bounced lighting effect by hand, essentially adding in direct and bounced light and subtracting the gradients of shadows with negative point lights. In addition, he almost completely turns off procedural low-quality lighting effects like SSAO, so he is pretty much strictly 'painting with light' by himself.Here is the room from various angles. The lightbulb icons signify the point/spot lights:
Here is the making-of/workflow used to make this:
Final:
It might not be the best example, this is a pretty micro scale, but it illustrates how the lighting can be better than simply having only sunlight shining through the window casting a sharp shadow while the rest of the room looks flat. Here you get nice smooth gradients, diffuse-interreflection/bouncing light and soft-shadowing/ambient-occlusion as you do in real life.
Here is an example of how they do it on a larger scale, from Crysis 2. They use these lights and negative lights (which are less densely packed & dont cast shadows so theyre cheap enough to have shipped in the console versions) to go from this flat, mostly shadowed interior scene:
To this one with lots of color and depth using only 13 small point lights and negative lights:
Now the direct sunlight is bouncing off the ground into the building and the far back side of the interior is a bit darker. Looks awesome, and more 3d/deep.
Here are the 13 lights their lighting artist added:
It's meticulous work, but the results speak for themselves, you get high quality lighting in real-time with a lot of artist control. A technique like this is actually used a lot in AAA animated movies in which GI would take far too long to calculate and lead to less control. (Pixar, for example, has been employing lighting artists to manually place lights and design every aspects of lighting by hand rather than precomputing/simulating full-on GI up until very recently, now they use a hybrid of the two for extra control and efficiency because new techniques allow them to afford it)
I do not see anything to suggest that we will get many of these features in Halo 4's Forge. If they were included though, you could most likely have this working with less densly packed lights at >30 FPS. Crysis 2 does this pretty well on consoles and has solid lighting. You could go from the harsh flat look of the shadow to something with a lot more depth and detail with this technique:
It's instantly less flat and more easily readable with the softer, more detailed shadows shadowing. Just slight gradients alone allow you to delineate spaces a lot better. On the other hand, here's a couple particularly egregious examples of how flat the lighting is right now on its own:
WTF, I can't even tell the foreground apart from the background!
Even the Spartans do not cast any shadows when they are in a shadow, not even a soft one like SSAO would give us. We get no depth cues from the lighting! It is like this old optical illusion they show in psych classes in the vision/perception chapter where if you move/add a shadow in a different place, and as a result, the object starts to look like it is floating off the ground rather than sitting on the ground farther off in the distance:
The spartans look like they are poorly composited into the shot.
It does affect self-shadowing, although the effect does not seem very strong in the first person view.
Lol, I never heard anyone actually use the correct term for this one except you.
I would assume not, that happened in Reach because they stored the orientation information for the pieces with 2 numbers, instead of 3:
The xbox hasnt gained any memory, and I doubt they want to store all them forge maps with a quaternion and make them forge maps even larger. They compress the shit out of screenshots so as not to clog up bungie.net, I dont think they wanna spare any room for forge on a problem like gimbal lock.
I took a good look at many of the pieces in the video and quite a few of the older pieces have been changed/updated to make this less of a problem. Many of the Reach Forerunner pieces that had inclines are now updated to fit with the new human-style of stairs with wider/more standard size walkways. The tall-tower piece for example:
I saw quite a few more in addition to this. I think many of the modularity proportions are fixed/more standard.
Lol, so now your forge maps can have color, as long as the color is grey or manually 'painted' red!
------------------
In other words, the new forge has a lot of room for improvements from what we have seen so far.
Amazing post. I can't pretend to be an expert in this stuff, but it was really interesting none the less. Blah, Forge 3.0 is not doing it for me at all.. It looks better, but only by a small margin.
Bregmann Roche
Member
There are already people doing paper edits of their Sword Base remakes. "This one's gonna have a red lift, a green lift, and a BLUE lift! It'll be awwwwweeesssssoooommmmeee".
I take back what I said about Forge before. Disarmament is the only way to keep the general MP population safe from these reckless people.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
It seriously worries me how little objective is discussed in the matchmaking forums for the developers of Halo 4. Perhaps the razor sharp hive like mind here at HaloGAF can inject some much needed wisdom to help make the tweaks to Halo 4 objective what we need to rebuild a core objective playlist with a decent population...
To all Gaffers...please post here or in the official Waypoint objective feedback thread. I'm happy to discuss or repost or PM anything objective based here on GAF then I'll repost over at the official Waypoint thread:
Waypoint Objective Playlist Feedback
To all Gaffers...please post here or in the official Waypoint objective feedback thread. I'm happy to discuss or repost or PM anything objective based here on GAF then I'll repost over at the official Waypoint thread:
Waypoint Objective Playlist Feedback
No comment
It really does make me sad to see that so many people are shitting on Forge. I've played on brand new forge maps or maps tweaked by forge almost everyday for years now. There is great forge content out there. The system just needs a little help finding the cream of the crop. Then we test, give feedback, test, give feedback over and over and over. And then maybe it's good enough to show up in matchmaking. There are tens of thousands of Forgers out there. There's no way that we can't get a handful of amazing maps. It makes no sense.
nillapuddin
Member
vote for me!
Reasons why I should be voted in:
edit:
the forge hate is making me rage so hard
Reasons why I should be voted in:
- gamertag named after lovely snack item
- .. etc
edit:
the forge hate is making me rage so hard
palpatine.jpg
Let's be real, the greatest thing to ever come out of Forge were boxes that were added to The Pit.
Reagan's BR
Banned
My Sword Base remake is going to have another level that is only accessible to players who chose jetpack.
Feels like Halo.
---
What really annoys me is that a large swath of "Halo" players would honestly say that jetpack feels like Halo and without it the game isn't a Halo game. Fuck you Reach and all that you destroyed.
Hydranockz
Member
What do you think the CCs have been doing all this time?
I'm looking for actual names though.. anyone in particular in mind?
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Honest questions
Which communities aren't represented that know about?
How sure are you of the exact things the CC's do or don't do?
Is HaloGAF's representation good enough or not? Why or why not?
Has there been any maps from GAF that I as a CC, over the time, didn't pay fair enough attention to?
Do you think I am qualified for being a CC?
(Don't mean to pile on, I'm actually really interested in your answers)
Reagan's BR
Banned
I wish Forge Hub would take up that responsibility.
I'm not sure that player exists. If you spend all/enough of your time in matchmaking you're probably not spending an equal amount of time in Forge (+ playtesting, + whoring your map to HaloGAF etc. for playtesters, + learning how to use Forge efficiently, + learning that crafting good spawns is an art).
What we need is a HaloGAF forge nerd that will craft maps just for the mutliplayer tryhards to playtest before submitting.
I would put myself in the tryhard group
nillapuddin
Member
Bregmann Roche
Member
We joke, but this is a very real threat to our sanity. If I am ever forced to play a game of anything on "Spear Base" or "Shield Station" or "Sword Gulch" I will lose my mind. Reach launch maps were so bad.
xxjuicesxx
Member
Not that?
Reagan's BR
Banned
I also wish it had good members. Pipe dream here.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Feels like Halo[GAF].
Hydranockz
Member
Except that we know they do.
I understand the sentiment, but Globally tinting forge pieces as they are right now would look terrible.
The only way for it too actually look good, is if they were accounting for this type of thing from the beginning when they are making the textures/shaders for the modular forge pieces. For example, by using a technique similar to how they color tint zombie variants in L4D2 or tinted particles in (since?) Halo 3; Gradient mapping. That would require a quite a bit more effort for modularity and planning and even then it would most likely be incompatible with their imposter-LOD system. Personally, I am not sure if any effort toward this cause would really result in a good payoff. The current system with small segments/stripes changing color accounts for this and looks pretty good, IMO.
I still think proper custom lighting would give you far more bang for the buck and look even better, it is the tool that the official maps use after all. (For example, Standoff's bases and the plain exteriors)
xxjuicesxx
Member
OK...I guess that shows in all those great forge maps we had in MM.
I really cant tell if you are serious.
I actually enjoy the discussions. Nearly every time there is a complaint on the process of integrating Forge maps into Matchmaking, it's built on something that is either completely not true or on exaggerated/half-truths. It really isn't anyone's fault but our own, yet it isn't our place to discuss these issues to a certain extent. So, there's really not a whole lot of progress that can be made on our end in terms of explaining exactly how that process works... which usually just presses the issues more and leads to continued complaints/anger.
The best we can do is ask how you'd improve upon the processes you know and understand and take the valid arguments into consideration (in terms of things we can control).
Forge Hub is a cesspool of buddy butt bumpers. Not to toot my own horn(or I guess it's more Homeboyd's horn than my own), but Blueprint is really one of the places you should be looking towards for good Forge content. There's stuff that gets posted in there that is top-tier stuff compared to what is in matchmaking, yet some of it doesn't see the light of day based on what the CC's current project is.
I know I've told Homeboyd and Fyre about my issues with the current CC system, but in the end it's all up to 343. Which in a sense is a shame, because they aren't presenting all of the information needed for a map to the CCs or the CCs aren't giving us all the information because 343 said not to.
Which is bullshit. If there's a process behind the scenes that can be addressed and improved upon, should it not be improved upon?
Reagan's BR
Banned
On thing to note is that the new pieces actually have a detailed surface as opposed to the flat grey blocks with darker grey lines from Reach.
I should have rephrased that; I hope a website built around good map makers emerges.
Reagan's BR
Banned
Guess the press is all done. Must be nerve wracking for 343.
Fear of the French.
Tashi- Obviously the biggest competitive player here, I'd value his opinion on what makes maps competitive over pretty much anyone else's here.
Juices- Juices has a bad case of "it's not what you're saying, it's how you present it", he "gets it", he just doesn't know how to say it in a way that doesn't offend everyone along the way. Obviously, if he were to be a good CC, he would need to work on his co worker manners.
Over- Probably the most active forger we have who is also actually really good at the game.
Risen- With age (lots of it), comes wisdom.
Just a few off the top of my head who I think could instantly improve the landscape IF given the proper authority to make some decisions that actually mattered. Like I said, if CC basically equates to a title with no real power, it's just a dick waving popularity contest that amounts to nothing.
Hydranockz
Member
Read.
The maps you see in MM are chosen by 343, not the CCs. The 'great' forge maps we had in MM were a direct result of decisions made by 343. While the CCs could very well have shown 343 some of those maps, it's never been their choice what gets published. Even if CC doesn't think the map is any good, the map could still get put on a playlist.
I'm VERY interested in what the reviewers have to say, well the respectable ones at least. I will have to try to stay away from video reviews and reading too much into the reviews themselves. I wish I was going into campaign without knowing anything, much like I am with AC3. Halo reveals are too difficult to stay away from.
nillapuddin
Member
i disagree, I would put myself in that category of player you described.
even within the realm of remake forgers, players like that exist
..
for whatever number of reasons, (imo) forge did not have its best foot forward in Reach whatsoever
I cant speak for most of the maps in MM, but I know for a fact that the remakes that were put in, were simply not what (I/we) would have liked to represent the community.
There is a very very good stable of recreations built in reach that hardly ever see the light of day.
I feel that because the one good chance they had at it, was ruined by a shitty gametype and improper communication
I am not a CC, and I dont know the implementation process so I cant speak to far on that front, but, the product is out there, "premium quality" is out there
(whatever the process is) just has to work better moving forward
Welcome to the 21 Club my man!
: /
Im not working tonight
tmrw order some (50 cent) wings after 6!
ill hit you up lol
Yeah I mean I guess Im not close enough to the surface to know everything, or to make a difference, but even in the remake group it is absolute HELL going through submissions and refining good maps, etc just so we can recommend it for CUSTOMS
I cant imagine the POLITICS it requires to push a map into MM, theres just so much people dont understand
even myself
edit: I really do wish I could help in a more meaningful way
hopefully the remake scene is even more prosperous
(even though it will be sooo much work to keep up with it all)
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
On thing to note is that the new pieces actually have a detailed surface as opposed to the flat grey blocks with darker grey lines from Reach.
I should have rephrased that; I hope a website built around good map makers emerges.
That's also just the "Human" template, which is unique to that map. They said each environment has it's own set.
So basically it's a fancy title that amounts to dick.
Poker Face
Member
The other environment that we saw has pieces that look exactly like those.
I do what I can.
I'm on it. When you work?
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Bregmann Roche
Member
Without the Cartographers 343 would have to sort through piles of maps to find anything worth consideration for MM. They would also have to work with the original map maker to iterate on the maps that had potential. They are not willing/able to devote resources to this process but have created a system that aims to accomplish those goals (find maps, refine maps) using the Cartographers.
So being a Community Cartographer basically boils down to being a gatekeeper. It is a job that requires lots of work and very little actual power.
I'm not upset at the cartographers (at least I don't think I am. It appears they don't have much of a say in the map selection process. Seems like they basically narrow down a pool for 343 to choose from), it's the way matchmaking is handled.
How in the hell does Uncaged get an update, and the spawn trap problem on Zealot remains unfixed to this day?
Over created a remake of Sanctuary that played better, performed better, and was more authentic that Asylum, and it didn't even get the light of day.
How in the hell does Uncaged get an update, and the spawn trap problem on Zealot remains unfixed to this day?
Over created a remake of Sanctuary that played better, performed better, and was more authentic that Asylum, and it didn't even get the light of day.
nillapuddin
Member
"6-9pm"
But I always try to stay late
no way I can guarantee Ill get ya tho,
because of the cheap wings
in this demographic
Thanks for the feedback. You REALLY stumbled upon something very important with this statement:Tashi- Obviously the biggest competitive player here, I'd value his opinion on what makes maps competitive over pretty much anyone else's here.
Juices- Juices has a bad case of "it's not what you're saying, it's how you present it", he "gets it", he just doesn't know how to say it in a way that doesn't offend everyone along the way. Obviously, if he were to be a good CC, he would need to work on his co worker manners.
Over- Probably the most active forger we have who is also actually really good at the game.
Risen- With age (lots of it), comes wisdom.
Just a few off the top of my head who I think could instantly improve the landscape IF given the proper authority to make some decisions that actually mattered. Like I said, if CC basically equates to a title with no real power, it's just a dick waving popularity contest that amounts to nothing.
"he would need to work on his co worker manners."
And I don't mean that I agree Juices personally needs to do this, but I mean that as a part of a team, what you said is obviously very important. How would a guy like Juices (outspoken and sometimes "offensive" as you stated) work with other CC's from various communities when reviewing the same map? Would he look at guys from non-competitive communities and force his opinion down their throat and say "I'm right and you're wrong because I'm a better Halo player than you" or would he take everything reps from those communities had to say and understand their position? (I'm not singling him out, but rather asking how you think guys like him would react in the situation above).
Understanding the Halo community as a whole and working with representatives from various communities with very different ideas of what makes Halo "fun" will certainly change your idea of what's best for the game. Not to mention, the tasks at hand are not always 4v4 slayer/objective tasks (i.e. competitive tasks). How would CC's similar to Juices react when tasked with looking for Action Sack maps? Would they disappear? Would they constantly tell 343 they are wasting their time updating these playlists and should only focus on competitive maps (or other playlists they prefer)?
The other thing to consider is every single one of us surrounds ourselves with the very people most think we don't care about or want to represent. In one of my groups, I have some of the most outspoken, critical, "competitive" type forgers/players sitting right by my side critiquing every move I personally make. I often ask their opinions of work I do for CC and always take it into consideration. They are better players than I am. Their perspective is important in my process of reviewing maps, but work I ultimately do IN CC has to be controlled within CC (for some obvious and probably some not so obvious reasons). So while Tashi, Cyren, Bravo, Over or whoever other competitive players are not CC's themselves, maps they find, support and promote are always being discussed and considered in CC.
I agree with some of your choices though, but determining whether they can function as a part of a very diverse team is a major contributing factor to what each person can bring to the table and it must be considered.
If there's no guarantee a good map will be pushed forward if the CC's unanimously agree on it, then the system is broken & worthless. They can sort through all of the maps they want, but if at the end of the day, 343/Bungie can force through whatever garbage they want, then there's no point to them, it's a false hope system from my perspective.
I get everything you're saying, it's the reason I didn't put Kyle, I love Kyle, but I know he wouldn't care about the Action Sack community for example, heh. I really think Juices is capable of that though, he's listed plenty of whacky gametypes back in the Halo 3 OT that were not your typical competitive fare, so I feel he's more likely to branch out than others.
But the only way to find out if these people can function together is to inject some new blood in and see how it pans out. Keep the current set of CC's, but there really needs to be some new people added in as well, Reach's Forge MM experience was below par, to say the least. Maybe it wasn't the CC's fault, but again, that just makes me question the entire system, and perhaps it isn't fixable at all.
I put a lot of feedback into Firefight, once it was clear I was not going to be deeply involved in multiplayer.
I had hoped to be more active on the MP side of things, but yeah. FWIW, I was asked to be in the Cartographers because I was involved with Halo 3's; one of my maps is still in matchmaking there. Can't say I blame you for wondering what the heck I've been doing with Reach.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
False logic mate, 343i/Bungie use the CC process so they don't have to filter through limitless poor quality maps to review the good ones for acceptance.
Sure the process could use some reworking but to suggest 343i should not have the final say or veto power is a bit off in my opinion.
Bregmann Roche
Member
I agree with this as far as the latter half of Reach's lifespan is concerned, but that included a time when 343 was all-hands on Halo 4, so I'm willing to give the CC's and 343 the benefit of the doubt for Halo 4. Without question the system was underutilized by 343. I'm not yet willing to say it was underpowered on the CC's end.