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Halo |OT13|

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Satchel

Banned
CoD never killed the formula that worked, that's the big difference.

As i said earlier, the core of Halo is still there, as it is with CoD.

BOTH have made changes to their multiplayer over the last 8-10 years.

Like i said, Halo just isn't in right now. I think its that simple. Most just won't accept that.

If all the whiners were right, then Halo 3 should be posting HUGE numbers right?
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
It's hard to think the series is stagnating when they have introduced things and improved upon them, even surpassing franchises that had them before hand.
Gameplay wise?

Wave modes is all I got with Zombies, and then Gears 3 does that best now anyways.
 
As i said earlier, the core of Halo is still there, as it is with CoD.

BOTH have made changes to their multiplayer over the last 8-10 years.

Like i said, Halo just isn't in right now. I think its that simple. Most just won't accept that.

If all the whiners were right, then Halo 3 should be posting HUGE numbers right?

Its not sci-fi skin its not Halo not being in. Take a look at week one population. People are playing Halo, Halo just doesn't retain the people and thats because the MP is currently bad, people are playing for the campaign, maybe dabbling in MP and leaving.

I know exactly how to fix it too. I figured it out a few days ago.

Gameplay wise?

Wave modes is all I got with Zombies, and then Gears 3 does that best now anyways.

Sometimes if it aint broke, you dont fix it. Its a saying for a reason.
 

Killer

Banned
CoD never killed the formula that worked, that's the big difference.

This.
Last two halos tried to change what made the formula great and failed. They just need to accept the fact that they will never capture COD audience no matter how hard they try.
 
So I looked up that multiplayer interview in the game guide for the points I mentioned earlier, and have some of the snippets that left an impression below. Straight from the horse's mouth.

From 'Implementing Multiplayer', an interview with Halo 4 Lead Designer Kevin Franklin, Official Halo 4 Game Guide:

Is Halo 4's multiplayer aimed at the hardcore multiplayer gamer, or have you given thought to the more casual player who is really intimidated by competitive online play?

One of our core goals right from the beginning was called "Halo for everyone". We wanted to broaden the experience, but its always tricky to do when you have so many high expectations of a competitive game. So our first approach to this was Regicide. I remember back in Halo 3, there (was) a somewhat successful experience where for your first ten games or so, you'd start out in Boot Camp, and it was always a free-for-all, always on one map. As a result, you didn't have to worry about disappointing your teammates. You just got to go in and fire at the first thing that moved. It was a good entry point, although it had issues later on in the game where players were exploiting the game to get into that hopper so they could kill the newbies. But if you had six people who had never picked up a controller before, it was a good starting experience.

...

What I love about FFA is its both highly accessible for new players and very competitive for experienced players.

With Regicide, its a free-for-all game, but the player is King and gets a crown over his head. Everyone knows where he is on the map, and there's a big bonus for killing him. Originally we wanted it because that way, players who were in last place could catch up by making a couple of King kills. We found early on in playtests that most players who were three or four kills back, statistically speaking they had already lost. And we didn't think that fit with the new player experience. So with Regicide, if you're a new player and not in first place, you have some opportunities to catch up quickly. Also, in standard free-for-all, we used to find that experienced players would learn to get a sense of who the weaker players were, and would race to kill them off. But in Regicide, the player with the crown is worth so much more than anyone else, they are the entire focus. So it gives some of the less experienced players the chance to relax a bit.

...

We thought it would only be for new players, but the more we saw our experienced players playing it, the more we started to hear them talking about strategies. So we added tweaks like giving bonuses to the player who's managed to stay alive as King, so for example if you are King for 30 seconds we give you an Overshield. It's ended up being a really unpredictable game type, and I think games come down to the last two or three kills, and lots of big comeback victories.

What makes a good multiplayer game?

A lot of things going on there. I think at the deep core design level, I think a near-perfect-loop, for a game that you want people to be playing 5000 games or for ten years or whatever, that loop needs to be nearly flawless. And then, your goal is to fire that dopamine hit, and to make that happen you have to make successes as awesome as possible, and minimize defeats. So getting that player psychology is huge.

...

What is it about multiplayer that gets you fired up?

...

I have some rules about multiplayer design. One is that strong players should be able to easily dominate weak players. We try to mitigate this with good matchmaking, but nobody likes a drawn out game, especially when you know who's going to win. The most exciting games are the ones that go down to the last kill, or the last second. Those moments of triumph, stealing that final kill in the last second.

So those are the things that a single-player game can't give you. Those moments.

And I think you know you have a good multiplayer game when those moments start happening every single game. You can't just script that action. It can only emerge from gameplay between humans.

Thought you guys might find this interesting.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Sometimes if it aint broke, you dont fix it. Its a saying for a reason.
Maybe, but I think that's mostly fundamental attribution error and not the whole picture when you consider a new craze coming to town to challenge the old one, and it's impact and availability being more widespread. Those contextual factors are what I feel are being ignored here whilst people focus on the micro.
 

Satchel

Banned
I think 343's biggest mistake was the release date.

release in september, own the next 2 months till CoD, and it gives you 2 months to tweak and patch before you lose everyone to BLOPS 2
 

Caja 117

Member
the problem is perspective.

you see the drop in numbers and blame change.

some people saw the drop in numbers as inevitable. CoD is where its at now. Its this generations counter strike.

CoD made adjustments top multiplayer, why didn't their numbers drop? Because the core is still there.

Here's where it gets juicy. The core is still there in Halo.

I think most people just don't want to admit that Halo isn't as popular as it once was.

That would be why 343 have made some of the changes they have. To see what gets people back.

You cant denny that halo reach changes were partly to blame for the drop in numbers.

Maybe a group did change because Halo wasnt the fashion anymore, but Reach changes from Halo 3 where so radical that some people just droped halo reach.

And the changes in all the CoD are not as big in the gameplay compared to the changes.from Halo 3 to halo 4.
 

Havok

Member
So I looked up that multiplayer interview in the game guide for the points I mentioned earlier, and have some of the snippets that left an impression below. Straight from the horse's mouth.

From 'Implementing Multiplayer', an interview with Halo 4 Lead Designer Kevin Franklin, Official Halo 4 Game Guide:



Thought you guys might find this interesting.
That's fascinating. I just think it's really baffling (yet somehow totally understandable in the grand scheme of things) that a big part of their strategy is to artificially create or promote more "wow" moments when those moments don't need to be created by the designer. Halo is at its core an emergent gameplay generator, and when its core systems interact those fantastic moments happen just by the players doing their thing, without the need of sweet waypoints so everybody knows everything at all times and rad YOU'RE A COOL GUY text popups.

The best moments in Halo aren't when the announcer spews a verbal blowjob at me for 10 seconds, it's when I throw a grenade under a Warthog and it goes sailing over my head and off a cliff. One of those will always be awesome because it's something that I did, that I controlled, and one of them feels like the game is trying desperately to appease players. That they're trying to create gametypes that cause comebacks and unpredictable outcomes rather than letting them happen solely through players doing their damndest to win a game with clear, fair rules is completely missing the point - when my team was up against another great team in Halo 2 on something like CTF Colossus and we came back after a 0-2 start, capping the flag at the last second in Sudden Death, we didn't need anything shouting at me and saying YEAH WAY TO GO MAN, my team was doing that. It didn't feel like something was being forced down my throat, it was natural elation.

I know he says that those moments can't be scripted, but by leveling the communication playing field with the information overload Halo 4 has and losing a lot of the nuance of certain gametypes, it feels like they're trying to. When it's hard as fuck to get a flag cap because you have to push with an entire team in a decent game since solo runs are impossible, yeah the game is going to go to the final seconds.

I also think there are better ways to ease new players in than to bombard them with HUD information like Halo 4 does. The MOBA genre is the hardest to get into, period - the community is filled with assholes, the games themselves don't explain a damn thing, there's no campaign to teach you mechanics. With DOTA 2, Valve is implementing a mentor program where a player can sign up to be a mentor and just play with new guys and teach them the ropes. They don't need to flash objective markers on the screen every ten seconds, it just happens via the community and seems like a much more elegant and long-term solution.

I respect what he was trying to do, but I don't think that making it the default (and near-universal) setting is good for the game long-term, because a lot of depth has been lost due to those efforts. A lot of the time, especially when I'm playing CTF, I feel like the game is designed to create a contentious match rather than allowing player action to do so (the waypoint, the super long announcer quips (PROTECT YOUR FLAG, KILL THEIR CARRIER) and increased capture limit contribute to this).
 

CyReN

Member
I'd prefer having a new Halo game every year with very similar MP and a new campaign than Halos that try to reinvent themselves.

I think it comes down to some weird "Halo Pride" going on, instead of admitting defeat they continue with it. Equipment never really worked in Halo 3, then they tried to add onto it in Reach and it did have good sales for a non-numbered title so they kept evolving them. Now with Halo 4 again, the sales are there but just like Halo Reach the online community is dying (at a faster rate).

I just hope 343 takes a (big) step back and tries to look at the Halo 1-3 titles and work off something there. Maybe it's me as an older player now but this equipment/abilities thing is getting worse and worse and have failed overall.

"I don't wanna not like Halo anymore." - Cursed Lemon
 
As much as I want it to happen, I don't ever see Halo multiplayer going back to basics.

I do. Almost definitely.

Why does it have to be so black and white? Why can't one or two or three playlists return to basics almost verbatim?

He who practices everything, masters nothing.

but yes, it doesn't have to be entirely black n white but focus IS needed. Reach tried to meet everyones demands and that was a hot mess.
 

Omni

Member
Why does it have to be so black and white? Why can't one or two or three playlists return to basics almost verbatim?
I think it's simply because most people who play Halo don't care at all. Sure you have people that complain on here and other forums, but even in Reach the classic playlist was the lowest populated in the game.

Just fired up the game and hoped into BTB Infinity Slayer for shits, BOOM DLC maps!

What. the. fuck.

Oh my god! What the fuck were 343i thinking?! Letting people play on the maps they bought?

RIP Halo
 
Nerds play Halo. Everyone else plays CoD.

I bet if Halo 4 came out in September, you'd have seen that 400k stay up there until BLOPS 2 in November. Or at least stay higher a lot longer than it did. I just don't think the average player gives a shit about the changes.

Your problem is this: If nerds play Halo, then why doesn't it appeal to the nerds any more?
 

Fracas

#fuckonami
Yeah the idea of launching before CoD was really dumb. Should've been a couple weeks after or maybe even a spring release.
 

JB1981

Member
Jet pack plus AR drives me up a wall. CTF on complex getting pinged by DMR fire from dudes camped on top of building in center. Want to throw my controller
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
"We made dozens of amazing designs, and then decided to go with Ghost Rider."

The "not a Halo game" shit is hilarious. The core gameplay and gunplay, the foundation for any shooter including Halo, still plays like Halo. The gametypes still very much play like Halo. It still feels like Halo. It still for the most part flows like Halo MP does, at an accelerated and a bit more.. uncertain pace. A lot of the stuff they've added like personal ordnance and loadouts is in many ways evolutionary for Halo, it just hasn't been beta tested here. People would be bitching a lot less if the Boltshot was a little less powerful and the maps didn't skew towards DMR ranges.

Like I said, the hyperbole in this thread is baffling. People here really, deeply offended by Halo 4. The game has it's exorbitant amount of problems, but it still very damn well plays like Halo. This extends to the campaign as well.
How much does the Halo core need to be stripped away for it to not be considered Halo anymore? We've already lost agile strafe, static weapon placements, the BR to the DMR, 4 shot kill, decent movement speed to sprint, five second spawns, death Xs, classic objective gametypes, comprehensive custom game options... And I'm sure there's things I'm not thinking of.

Honestly, ordnance alone kills the Halo feel. It makes map flow and control far less important, and makes each match feel like Fiesta-lite.

Sidenote Edit : The Sticky Detonator is such a sad replacement for the pro-pipe. I used it in a few games of H4 today, and man, it's just so much worse.
 
Yeah the idea of launching before CoD was really dumb. Should've been a couple weeks after or maybe even a spring release.

I agree. Spring release makes sense, but people are scared of it for some reason.

GTA IV came out at the end of April, and it sold 3.6 million copies day 1. Halo can be as successful as it is now in the Spring, with less competition.
 
Oh my god! What the fuck were 343i thinking?! Letting people play on the maps they bought?

RIP Halo

Crazy new concept being introduced to Halo, I expect backlash.
I agree. Spring release makes sense, but people are scared of it for some reason.

GTA IV came out at the end of April, and it sold 3.6 million copies day 1. Halo can be as successful as it is now in the Spring, with less competition.

GTA is bigger than Halo, and on multiple platforms.

3.6 in one day is not something that's realistic for Halo.
 
"We made dozens of amazing designs, and then decided to go with Ghost Rider."


How much does the Halo core need to be stripped away for it to not be considered Halo anymore? We've already lost agile strafe, static weapon placements, the BR to the DMR, 4 shot kill, decent movement speed to sprint, five second spawns, death Xs, classic objective gametypes, comprehensive custom game options... And I'm sure there's things I'm not thinking of.

Honestly, ordnance alone kills the Halo feel. It makes map flow and control far less important, and makes each match feel like Fiesta-lite.

Sidenote Edit : The Sticky Detonator is such a sad replacement for the pro-pipe. I used it in a few games of H4 today, and man, it's just so much worse.

Honestly, apart from the shields, there is very little of Halo left.
It's more of a Halo skin over a different t game, than a Halo game at its core.
 
Crazy new concept being introduced to Halo, I expect backlash.


GTA is bigger than Halo, and on multiple platforms.

3.6 in one day is not something that's realistic for Halo.

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I meant that it can be as successful as Halo is now, but in the Spring. I just used GTA IV as an example to illustrate the fact that games can be hugely successful outside of Holiday release.
 
Crazy new concept being introduced to Halo, I expect backlash.


GTA is bigger than Halo, and on multiple platforms.

3.6 in one day is not something that's realistic for Halo.

And yet the first few launch days Halo 4 sold over 3.5 million globally, official MS number. I'd like some official numbers about 1 or 2 weeks after XMAS too.
 

CyReN

Member
wait I missed this, MS is really saying they did this on purpose?

As an additional reward to those customers that participated in our "14 Day, Buy and Play" program (which ran from Nov. 6 – Nov. 20), we are providing complimentary access to the Crimson Map Pack for a limited time, through Tuesday, December 18 at 9am UTC/GMT.
There were some initial complications with the distribution of the "14 day, Buy and Play" reward tokens, and so we decided to provide the additional reward of complimentary access to the Crimson Map Pack, for a limited time, as a "thank you" to our customers that contributed to the success of the "Halo 4" launch.
 
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