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Halo |OT14| They call it Halo

O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
after playing around with the BR quite a bit lately - i'm now all for the complete removal of the dmr. the range on it is actually hampered on some 4v4 maps and would greatly improve all larger BTB maps. i'm a believer.

it wont be removed though. i'd suggest slowing its rate of fire as a fix. that way its still a valuable weapon in the sandbox for loooong distances and taking on snipers, but you should be able to get to cover if someone is shooting at you from a distance before dying. also, with any nerf, BR may become more viable and there would potentially be less dmrs on the map at any one time anyway.

but yeah, i think the dmr is one of the tweaks i'm most hoping for - but i really doubt it'll be addressed.
 
E

ElzarTheBam

Member
The Henery said:
Fixed ;)

And I'll just let you know that thanks to you I had scatmans world stuck in my head earlier lol.
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Apologies my good sir.

To further eloborate on your point about the DMR. Map design really suffers from having a 3x Scope starting weapon.

You now have to at the very least accomodate and balance that range, which leaves maps feeling big and sometimes empty.

Furthermore it hinders the other non 3x scoped weapons.

If you don't build a map which supports the range of the DMR, but rather the other traditional ranged weapons. You're left with a weapon that can cover an insane range on the map.

It's a lose-lose situation in regards to it being a starting weapon.

I would not mind it bieng reduced to a four shot power weapon.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Didn't the community call for a zero bloom DMR in Reach? Now they have it and hate it. Careful what you wish for. Slayer with DMR pick ups in Reach on 4x4 maps played fine. I don't think the DMR is an overpowered ping fest on 4x4 Reach maps. Bloom is better than zero bloom IMO

I do agree that the DMR in Halo 4 has limited this sandbox and has ruined BTB play

I love the BR in Halo 4 .. I use it even though I know I am putting myself at a disadvantage
 
M

Madness

Member
op_ivy said:
after playing around with the BR quite a bit lately - i'm now all for the complete removal of the dmr. the range on it is actually hampered on some 4v4 maps and would greatly improve all larger BTB maps. i'm a believer.

it wont be removed though. i'd suggest slowing its rate of fire as a fix. that way its still a valuable weapon in the sandbox for loooong distances and taking on snipers, but you should be able to get to cover if someone is shooting at you from a distance before dying. also, with any nerf, BR may becomes more viable and there would potentially be less dmrs on the map at any one time anyway.

but yeah, i think the dmr is one of the tweaks i'm most hoping for - but i really doubt it'll be addressed.
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Well you could always make the range the same as a BR. Give the DMR the same kill times as the BR and you have a weapon that doesn't break maps but still gives those who prefer a single shot rifle to a 3 shot one a chance to enjoy the game.

The range is really what makes the DMR ridiculous. Imagine how the pit would play if you had DMR's, or Last Resort, or Sandtrap etc. I only said halo 3 maps so people could understand.

The clearest example is Valhalla. An great map to play with BR starts vs Ragnarok in Halo 4, which is essentially one side pinging the other with very little map play.

This is why I'm disappointed with 343 in how they approached combat. You basically have a mini sniper that will take out anyone from a distance, and then for those that somehow close the distance or are close enough for cqc, you have a mini shotgun in the boltshot.

In case you're wondering or telling me to get better or adapt, I probably have over 1200 more kills than deaths with the DMR and like 300 more kills than deaths with the boltshot. That doesn't mean I don't know how ridiculously useful the weapons are.
 
D

Duji

Member
UNKNOWN iXi said:
Duji I hope you stay a Junior forever so you can always be my favorite <3
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It may be possible if I keep posting at this rate. lol

The Henery said:
The DMR has wrecked BTB gameplay. As many here suggest, the only way for BTB and the DMR to be compatible is if the DMR's scope is reduced to 2x and reduce the aim assist/bullet magnetism.
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This. They need to make the DMR more difficult to use against far away opponents by tinkering with the exact things you mentioned. Recoil, spread, and bloom are not the way to do it. A 2x scope would be ideal.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
JB1981 said:
Didn't the community call for a zero bloom DMR in Reach? Now they have it and hate it. Careful what you wish for. Slayer with DMR pick ups in Reach on 4x4 maps played fine. I don't think the DMR is an overpowered ping fest on 4x4 Reach maps. Bloom is better than zero bloom IMO

I do agree that the DMR in Halo 4 has limited this sandbox and has ruined BTB play

I love the BR in Halo 4 .. I use it even though I know I am putting myself at a disadvantage
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You're broadly misconstruing what was going on. There were people calling for a no-bloom DMR, and at the same time there were others talking about how bad the DMR was for BTB gameplay. I feel that people who were calling for a no-bloom DMR were thinking primarily about 4v4 gameplay.
 
O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Madness said:
Well you could always make the range the same as a BR. Give the DMR the same kill times as the BR and you have a weapon that doesn't break maps but still gives those who prefer a single shot rifle to a 3 shot one a chance to enjoy the game.

The range is really what makes the DMR ridiculous. Imagine how the pit would play if you had DMR's, or Last Resort, or Sandtrap etc. I only said halo 3 maps so people could understand.

The clearest example is Valhalla. An great map to play with BR starts vs Ragnarok in Halo 4, which is essentially one side pinging the other with very little map play.

This is why I'm disappointed with 343 in how they approached combat. You basically have a mini sniper that will take out anyone from a distance, and then for those that somehow close the distance or are close enough for cqc, you have a mini shotgun in the boltshot.

In case you're wondering or telling me to get better or adapt, I probably have over 1200 more kills than deaths with the DMR and like 300 more kills than deaths with the boltshot. That doesn't mean I don't know how ridiculously useful the weapons are.
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DMR tweaks need to happen to improve BTB, and, to a lesser extent, make the other rifles viable as other choices. whether that is decreasing the dmr zoom, slowing the rate of fire, or even making it a map pick up (i doubt it would ever be removed from loadouts personally), doesnt really matter and would require testing to arrive at the appropriate solution.

i just hope changes to the dmr are being investigated. i love BTB, and halo 4's could be terrific (as vehicles imo are pretty well balanced and controllable again), but the might of the dmr greatly impacts the btb sandbox.

StalkerUKCG said:
Hate bloom but its implementation on the DMR could add balance.
Click to expand...

now that we have other alternate rifles to chose from (with no bloom), i may agree. again, though, i think it would need to be tested to really see how it would work.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
I was never a fan of Ivory Tower/Reflection. From a slayer standpoint, I remember matches of frustration in trying to unseat that top level when the enemy team had the rockets and sniper. On the subject of objective, it was okay. I think Longshore in Halo 3 outclasses it for 1-Bomb and 1-Flag.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
Mombasa looks so god damn beautiful in the night levels of ODST. Found some new areas and other little things that I hadn't seen before, hopefully I'll be able to upload the screenshots sucessfully.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Overdoziz said:
Mombasa looks so god damn beautiful in the night levels of ODST. Found some new areas and other little things that I hadn't seen before, hopefully I'll be able to upload the screenshots sucessfully.
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Mombasa and Alexandria are amazing cities that feel very grounded. Halo 2 urban environments are terrible. I have hope that we may explore some new city in Halo 5. New Phoenix would be cool

Phoenixstreet.jpg
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
I personally hope they spend some time world building. I mean in the sense of their locations actually being substantial and add something to the story, then instead being more a backdrop. Take for example locations like New Alexandria and Mombasa streets, those ooze personality and to some extent promote the idea of exploration. I’m being vague, damn the words are not coming out correctly :(
 
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BigShow36

Member
If you want to balanced the DRM you don't add more fucking bloom. You lower the aim assist and increase the player strafe. Of course none of thats going to happen, so whatever. If they ever do make any balance changes, I'm sure it will be just another asinine, backwards way of avoiding the real issue. Making weapons random and frustrating is the worst way possible to "balance" things.
 
T

Thug Waffle

Member
JB1981 said:
I'm referring to how the DMR is currently configured for the Halo sandbox. Bloom is a better compromise if the DMR has to stay
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Eh, not really. While it'd be inconsistent, you'd still be able to spam and more often than not, bloom wouldn't change whether or not you got the kill. It's in the competitive space that the erratic tendencies of bloom come to light. Even with Reach's bloom, the DMR would still outclass the BR in gametypes designed for that level of play.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Bloom is the dumbest mechanic ever added in Halo, if they want to add a mini-sniper rifle but make you shoot it slowly to make it accurate and keep it balanced then just give it a slow ROF.
 
O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Rickenslacker said:
Bloom is the dumbest mechanic ever added in Halo, if they want to add a mini-sniper rifle but make you shoot it slowly to make it accurate and keep it balanced then just give it a slow ROF.
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thats what i'm leaning towards. keep it 3x, slow down its rof.

if its not as capable at close and medium ranges, i think a lot of people would opt for the other 2x rifles and it wouldnt be as big an issue even in BTB.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
I thought New Alexandria looked boring during the day. It had some great moments during night time, though. Example:

frigate-hologram.jpg
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--

I'm 10 minutes into my 30 minute film of New Mombasa and I'm already running into the 50 screenshot limit.
 
N

NobleGundam

Banned
Rickenslacker said:
Alexandria never gelled with me, it just screamed generic sci-fi future city. Smooth white architecture everywhere.
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I agree. In Reach, New Alexandria felt abit broken/distant. Honestly I didn't care much about it.

In ODST, New Mombasa mixed things up. The city itself felt alive along with the A.I. Vergil.
 
R

rakka

Member
Madness said:
In case you're wondering or telling me to get better or adapt, I probably have over 1200 more kills than deaths with the DMR and like 300 more kills than deaths with the boltshot. That doesn't mean I don't know how ridiculously useful the weapons are.
Click to expand...

+500 spread with boltshot here. hate the thing and sure as hell hope it wont return in the next game but I'm not going to put myself at a disadvantage, I already have enough with the terrible teammates i get when matchmaking alone.

+4600 spread with dmr. nearly 100% slayer. I hardly play big team, even on 4v4 maps it's a beast. I can imagine how game breaking it would be on larger maps.

Rickenslacker said:
Alexandria never gelled with me, it just screamed generic sci-fi future city. Smooth white architecture everywhere.
Click to expand...

I would have liked a city stage in halo 4. not sure if its just me but I loved the exodus and new Alexandria levels in reach. have replayed them countless times
 
M

Madness

Member
Yup, I'd also like to see a new human city... For some reason complex reminded me of mass effect 2 when you go to the human colony and see Ashley and the collectors attack etc.

I liked the on-foot portion of new Alexandria in the start, but disliked it once you had to chopper down and take that area where wraiths appear. I also loved exodus.

I was expecting more humans, a more city/world on the verge of extinction feeling. Exodus was alright and I really enjoyed the switch in gameplay.
 
M

MaximumFlipFlop

Banned
New Mombasa at night, no VISR. The best way to play ODST. Oh yeah, crank those Sennheisers up and just enjoy the light thunder, pattering of rain, and distant explosions. So good.
 
A

Akai__

Member
How long does it take me to rank up in Halo 3? I won several matches, finished a ton on 2nd place, too and nothing happens. The Halo 2 system was much better...
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Overdoziz said:
I doubt it would've made a huge difference on most of Reach's 4v4 maps (Powerhouse maybe), but the DMR is definitely a problem on BTB maps in both Reach and Halo 4. And no, I'm not saying that because I'm bad or anything, which you always use as an argument. It's awful because it limits movement extremely and just makes for relatively boring long range firefights.

The difference between how Valhalla and Raganrok play is probably the perfect example of the effect of the DMR (With better netcode combined with it) on maps that have wide open areas with long lines of sight. In Halo 3, with an average connection, the range at which you can hit people consistently is extremely short. Heck, even at close to medium range the Halo 3 BR fails to register half the time. At a relatively short range of, say, Laser spawn to the the Pelican you can hit probably less than half your shots. That's how limited your ability to ping people from a distance is in Halo 3. If you shoot the same distance on Ragnarok you can consistently hit your times. Sure, you'l miss a couple here and then, but overall it's much easier to hit people from that distance than it is in Halo 3.

So what does this do in terms of how BTB plays on most of its maps? It greatly discourages going out into even slightly open areas. Sure, in both Halo 3 and Halo 4 people sit at the top middle of Valhalla, but what happens when that occurs plays out entirely differently. Where in Halo 3 you can flank people who are at the top middle without too much trouble, in Halo 4 you will get shot to pieces once you cross a strip of open field even if it's close your base. I've been pinged from top middle all the way to the waterfall base's Mantis spawn, it's that ridiculous. There is no way that something like that could happen in Halo 3. Matches on Ragnarok end up in a bunch of people hiding behind a rock, pinging other people hiding behind a rock a mile away until the score limit is reached. You can see a similar situation on Complex where because of the combination of the map layout and the DMR's range and accuracy people tend to hide in or on top of the main structures and take pot-shots at their opponents.

Keep in mind that I have no problem with very accurate weapons, the Halo 3 BR was absolutely shit in that regard. What does bother is the extreme range that the DMR can be used effectively at. Range which you don't need on 4v4 maps and which negatively affects gameplay on 8v8 maps.

As far as I can see there's two options that 343 has to solve this issue: 1) Design your maps around the DMR's range limiting it effectiveness or 2) Reduce the range of the DMR. Option one would require all BTB maps to be much more focuses on close and medium range, rather than long range. I think this is a viable option, but it would require a lot of effort and thought put into development of the maps. Option 2 would be a more obvious choice, but if they choose the pick this option I don't think they should add bloom or spread or whatever. I think reducing the scope zoom, the auto-aim distance and the bullet magnetism distance would go a long way in reducing the negative impact of the DMR. It can also be communicated easier to the player with the reticule staying blue even when it's on an opponent meaning that the game isn't assisting you.

I know your post was more about the DMR on small maps, which I don't think is an issue either, but I still wanted to say something about the entire DMR issue which has been shrugged off by several people on here as a non-issue. Personally I think it's one of the main issues of Reach and Halo 4 BTB right alongside the vehicles.
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I get so sad reading about this, now that it's happened. I've been afraid this would happen to Halo 4 since shortly after Reach launched. This was me harping on it in 2011:

GhaleonEB said:
Take this logic and apply it maps from the series past. Let's do Halo 3, Valhalla. On that map, players on the center hill could do no more than ping players in the base. You had to work to get closer to the base to really get into BR range. In Reach, players on the hill and base would be in a constant firefight - and anyone in between would get evicerated.

Likewise, Standoff, where players would be cross mapping from the top of the bases, not across the rock gardens. Or Terminal, Waterworks, Relic (players on top would destroy the attacking team with DMR fire), Headlong (top of building to offensive spawn building cross mapping), Sandtrap (open dunes = killing zone) and so on across every BTB map in the series. Like Blood Gulch, for instance, which is a cross-mapping nightmare in Reach.

The range of the DMR really decimates BTB map design.
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Early 2012:

GhaleonEB said:
It would be worse. Guys on the hill could be comfortably killing guys in and around their base; that kind of engagement was out of range with the BR. They'd be able to comfortably take guys out way out by the bubble shield spawn as well. The thought of the DMR on Valhalla is a painful one; I often think of it as Exhibit A in illustrating why the DMR's range wreaks maps. Well, maybe Exhibit B. Exhibit A is Hemorrhage, since we can actually play it.
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I think I devoted more text to this issue over the past two years than any other. I got tired of typing it, I'm sure people got tired of reading it. But I desperately didn't want a second halo game to have its BTB so damaged by the DMR.

This is why I was so bummed when a Valhalla remake was announced in Halo 4. I'd been using the DMR on Valhalla as an example of how to break Halo's gameplay for a couple years. And then 343 goes ahead and does it.

It boggles my mind that we could see this coming so far out and yet 343 goes ahead with it. In hindsight, I should have questioned my purchase of the game based on decisions like this, as it was an indication of things that proved pervasive through the game design.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
MerkinMax said:
New Mombasa at night, no VISR. The best way to play ODST. Oh yeah, crank those Sennheisers up and just enjoy the light thunder, pattering of rain, and distant explosions. So good.
Click to expand...
Thunder indeed.
ibympZvy5GjNJa.jpg
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Have nearly 50 screenshots extracted and uploading at the moment. I wish I had a capture card, though. There's some awful compression going on whenever you take a screenshot. It does get rid of the aliasing, though.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I get so sad reading about this, now that it's happened. I've been afraid this would happen to Halo 4 since shortly after Reach launched. This was me harping on it in 2011:

Early 2012:

I think I devoted more text to this issue over the past two years than any other. I got tired of typing it, I'm sure people got tired of reading it. But I desperately didn't want a second halo game to have its BTB so damaged by the DMR.

It boggles my mind that we could see this coming so far out and yet 343 goes ahead with it. In hindsight, I should have questioned my purchase of the game based on decisions like this, as it was an indication of things that proved pervasive through the game design.
Click to expand...

My problem is that I don't think I'll ever stop buying Halo games, so they could ruin it all they want and they'd still get my $60. So many questionable decisions with each release, I'm tired of it :[

The best precision, utility weapon Halo has had was the H1 Pistol because it was great for competitive/casual play. When you pulled off a three shot, newb or pro, you feel like a badass. Pulling off a 4-5 shot with any version of the BR/DMR? zZz

Broken record is broken.
 
R

rakka

Member
The Real Napsta said:
Everyone bitching about the dmr should just use the dmr. The game plays well when all players are using it.
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I think most people here bitching about it do use the DMR. i have 8000 kills with the damn thing. the complaints are that it's game breaking, especially in big team.
 
Z

Zeouterlimits

Member
The Real Napsta said:
Everyone bitching about the dmr should just use the dmr. The game plays well when all players are using it.
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... no, that's got nothing to do with the issues of how range affects play. I'm confused as to how that is considered a solution.

Loving the ODST chatter, New Mombasa at night is stunning, with headphones on, a quiet house and the lights off. Love it.
 
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