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Halo |OT14| They call it Halo

J10

Banned
Wrapping the multiplayer in fiction doesn't have an effect on the gameplay - bad design does. There's no reason a competent developer can't have the gameplay be balanced and fun and rewarding while being tied into the mainline story. It's not the idea that is as fault, it's the execution. They didn't HAVE to have maps be filled boring UNSC labs and brown rocks despite being set in a holodeck that could conceivably generate any wacky setting they desired - in this way, having it set on a holodeck could actually be creatively freeing in that they are not bound to any set of environments; they didn't HAVE to have said holodeck generating random weapon drops. They CHOSE to do that. You have to question what was the thinking behind choosing to be boring and random? Maybe it makes more sense to have the Infinity generate combat environments the Spartans are actually likely to find themselves in - war happens in "real" places and there is probably a lot that can randomly happen in an actual skirmish - and this line of reasoning possibly helps rationalize shoehorning in gameplay elements from other games that have no place in Halo for the sake of chasing trends and catering to the lowest common denominator.

The Infinity holodeck could just as easily be said to generate Midships and Sanctuarys or planets made of bees filled with trees dangling with baby elephants. Maybe nobody thought to do that though.
 

metzger203

Junior Member
More suggestions for taking the franchise even further away from what defines it.

Is it really, though? We had maps with interactive environments in Halo 2. Granted, they were simple things like the bridge/gate/windows on Zanzibar, the center platform on Midship, and the hanging platforms on Headlong. I had always hoped those ideas would be built upon for future maps, but that didn't happen. Not to say Halo needs BF3-level destructible environments, but a little more interaction with the maps would be appreciated.

Also, first person POV from passenger seats was in Halo: CE. Never should have been taken out, though I'll admit it's a lot of fun to get super easy noscopes from the passenger seats in Reach.
 

willow ve

Member
Lucky ordnance drops definitely influence the way a game plays out. If they didn't matter then why would 343 go ahead and put a perk in place that lets you circumvent the system and get every drop? Personal ordnance is the same way. The team that gets snipers or binary rifles in BTB wins. The team that gets needlers and plasma grenades loses.
 
My point was that lucky ordnance drops do not define the Halo 4 experience - which is what his post suggested.

It's seriously frustrating reading all the hyperbole here, because I think it masks the REAL discussion that could be had about the shortcomings of the game. But maybe nobody who's bitching is actually PLAYING any more, so that discussion is moot. Whatever.)

They don't completely define it, but they help encompass the idea of "dynamic" gameplay.

So many things that used to be predictable like, "Oh we're playing on the pit? Okay well we'll spawn on this side, overshield spawns there, rockets are there, snipers is here, etc etc." Now we know the initial spawns, the map we play on, and that's it.

I have no idea what the starting and secondary weapons of the opposing team are. I have no idea where any power weapons will spawn. I have no idea what the opposing team got from their ordnance drops. This is what makes the game frustrating for me personally. Don't get me wrong random things like accidental traffic cone kills, death from falling debris, etc are cool and awesome, but they aren't programmed randomness.

I know there are people who love random chaos (not saying you do specifically) and enjoy shit flying everywhere, but I like knowing there's no way someone's going to have a beam rifle when I'm playing Team Slayer on Midship. Sure 343 at least tried to please fans who prefer an older style of play with Slayer Pro, but it still had 3 loadout weapons (ASSAULT RIFLE???!?!?!), random weapon spawns, and instant respawns. Not to mention it's gone now with no mention of it since it's removal.

All I wanted with Halo 4 was a good Halo game. Halo game. Halo: CE is an arena shooter. Halo 2 is an arena shooter. Halo 3 is an arena shooter. Halo 4 is not. Halo 4 isn't a Call of Duty in space either. It's just another average modern FPS. It has classes, you choose your perks, and random shit goes on in the game.
 

Dirtbag

Member
Is it really, though? We had maps with interactive environments in Halo 2. Granted, they were simple things like the bridge/gate/windows on Zanzibar, the center platform on Midship, and the hanging platforms on Headlong. I had always hoped those ideas would be built upon for future maps, but that didn't happen. Not to say Halo needs BF3-level destructible environments, but a little more interaction with the maps would be appreciated.

Also, first person POV from passenger seats was in Halo: CE. Never should have been taken out, though I'll admit it's a lot of fun to get super easy noscopes from the passenger seats in Reach.

Not just that, but when has the MP even been about being involved in a giant war?
The chaos of the MP has always been in the sandbox/physics. Interactive environmental objects can create interesting strategies / encounters. I think those things should definitely be pushed. I dont see how a floating platform and destructible cover are comparable.
 

Fracas

#fuckonami
When power weapon spawns were static, combat had a flow, with major encounters near the "bigger" spawns and small, 1v1 skirmishes along the way and at "smaller" weapon spawns. It was simple and efficient. Even more than that, it widened the skill gap. Knowing when and where the weapons spawn serves as a tool for predicting enemy movement, as well as assisting a player in determining good areas to take cover and recharge shields. Map movement in Halo 4 isn't methodical at all. Players just move around the map without purpose, or turtle until weapons drop. This may be anecdotal, but I've had many matches (I'd go so far as to say a third or maybe even half) where both teams just turtle on opposite sides of the map; pinging each other with DMRs, waiting for drops.

Ordnance is detrimental to the game in my opinion. It's not dynamic, it's not evolution, it's bad design.
 

Dirtbag

Member
i honestly dont know what to play anymore. Anniversary is cool, but one playlist filled with completely unskilled opponents is getting kind of boring. I'm done with 4 till TU.

Is there anything else to play that is kind of halo-ish?

Thinking about downloading Counter-strike GO and see if I can get the Counter-strike spark again.
So bored with mp games lately.

New Splinter Cell looks like a disaster but there were rumors of Spy vs. Mercs coming back?
 

JHall

Member
i honestly dont know what to play anymore. Anniversary is cool, but one playlist filled with completely unskilled opponents is getting kind of boring. I'm done with 4 till TU.

Is there anything else to play that is kind of halo-ish?

Thinking about downloading Counter-strike GO and see if I can get the Counter-strike spark again.
So bored with mp games lately.

New Splinter Cell looks like a disaster but there were rumors of Spy vs. Mercs coming back?

They confirmed Spies vs Mercs back at E3. But other than that they are extremely tight lipped about it.
 

Dirtbag

Member
One way to lessen the Boltshot could be to eliminate Firepower and allow the automatics for secondaries.

Simple. Elegant. Efficient.

who even cares at this point, the game is a trainwreck. TU is coming, maybe they can talk about it soon instead of the constant "trust us its coming" crap.

EDIT:Sorry, lol. Dont know where my response came from.
 

JB1981

Member
i honestly dont know what to play anymore. Anniversary is cool, but one playlist filled with completely unskilled opponents is getting kind of boring. I'm done with 4 till TU.

Is there anything else to play that is kind of halo-ish?

Thinking about downloading Counter-strike GO and see if I can get the Counter-strike spark again.
So bored with mp games lately.

New Splinter Cell looks like a disaster but there were rumors of Spy vs. Mercs coming back?

i play reach slayer. i like it *shrug*
 

Alchemical

Neo Member
They don't completely define it, but they help encompass the idea of "dynamic" gameplay.

So many things that used to be predictable like, "Oh we're playing on the pit? Okay well we'll spawn on this side, overshield spawns there, rockets are there, snipers is here, etc etc." Now we know the initial spawns, the map we play on, and that's it.

I have no idea what the starting and secondary weapons of the opposing team are. I have no idea where any power weapons will spawn. I have no idea what the opposing team got from their ordnance drops. This is what makes the game frustrating for me personally. Don't get me wrong random things like accidental traffic cone kills, death from falling debris, etc are cool and awesome, but they aren't programmed randomness.

[...]

Great post. Further to the bolded statement, I fully agree with this assessment and it is this particular element (IMO) - systematic unpredictability - that is the biggest downfall, whilst also being the over-arching defining factor, of gameplay in Halo 4. Unpredictability is absolutely great when it's based on micro-level, individual, player-related stuff (individual decision making, out-thinking the opponent with map movement, baiting for power weapons etc. and the larger-scale implications of such tactics when implemented collectively by a coordinated team), but as a built-in macro-level characteristic of gameplay it simply leads to frustrating experiences, reducing what is left of a skill gap down to the closest it's been to zero in the entire franchise.

I still think the Ordnance system could have been implemented in a manner which accomplished some of the stated goals of the developer (i.e. flattening the learning curve a little - feeding intel on weapon layouts to new players), without reducing the skill gap to such a startling degree. We could have simply had a system whereby weapons spawn in predictable places at predictable times - as they have done throughout the franchise - but these are now telegraphed to all players with the new in-game waypoints and radar indicators.

A small reduction in the skill gap to allow for a somewhat easier introduction for new players, whilst still retaining large parts of that skill gap, due to inherent systematic predictability and thus simultaneously satisfying long-time fans of the franchise. I honestly thought this was how it was going to be implemented when I first read about it. :/
 
I dont actually have Reach anymore, just my roommates copy of Anniversary.
I'm not buying Reach again. Anything else out there?

Nexuiz is a pretty awesome arena shooter, think Quake meets Halo CE/Reach meets Metroid Prime multiplayer. Nobody plays it anymore though.

One way to "nerf" the Boltshot could be to eliminate Firepower and allow the automatics for secondaries.

Simple. Elegant. Efficient.

Alternatively: let some Promethean weapons run on a battery like the Sentinel Beam. Boltshot has identical overheat/cooldown times as the Plasma Pistol and the overcharge range is unchanged, but can only drain shields. Now you have to pick between the Magnum, a Plasma Pistol that can EMP, and a Plasma Pistol that can headshot.
 
Once again, I hate that some people use the excuse of "Oh well I know this is broken and terrible but it doesn't happen that often so its ok!"
This so much.

How often something happens doesn't affect how bad a gameplay mechanic or system is. If it's bad, it's bad, regardless of if it happens to me 10 times a game, or once every few games.

Global Ordnance is a damaging system to the overall gameplay on many levels. There isn't a list of excuses that go along with that statement.
New Splinter Cell looks like a disaster but there were rumors of Spy vs. Mercs coming back?

Game looks terrible (RIP Splinter Cell, series used to be awesome), but if they don't ruin Spies vs. Mercs, that will be worth 60 dollars on its own.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
i honestly dont know what to play anymore. Anniversary is cool, but one playlist filled with completely unskilled opponents is getting kind of boring. I'm done with 4 till TU.

Is there anything else to play that is kind of halo-ish?

Thinking about downloading Counter-strike GO and see if I can get the Counter-strike spark again.
So bored with mp games lately.

New Splinter Cell looks like a disaster but there were rumors of Spy vs. Mercs coming back?

If you're in the mood for fast paced and free try Urban Terror. I consider it a better CS though I haven't played in two years or so not sure what's changed.
 
who even cares at this point, the game is a trainwreck. TU is coming, maybe they can talk about it soon instead of the constant "trust us its coming" crap.

EDIT:Sorry, lol. Dont know where my response came from.

True.. That's usually my mentality too lol "who even cares.."

In what respect, Charlie?

Boltshot is going to drop you before you can do any real damage with an automatic.

Cut the range and be aware while turning corners. Adding automatics as secondaries takes away its appeal when you have possibly better options to choose from. As is, PP for BTB and Boltshot for everything else, so why not eliminate a useless "perk" since automatics should've ALWAYS been this good in Halo games."
 
Intersting - BSAngel replied that they would have an "update" about Fileshare int this week's bulletin.

Where? She responded last week and said,

I won't sugarcoat this; I know it absolutely sucks that this feature still isn't ready to go. Once we have a firm grasp on the expected release date, we'll share it with you. As of right now, it's not looking like it's going to hit in January. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I'd rather be honest than not. :/

https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postsm2152892_NEWS--The-Halo-Bulletin--1-9-13.aspx#post2152892
 
Let's set up some odds for betting HaloGAF: odds that we hear about a TU in tonight's bulletin?

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Oh, and I played Halo 4 for the first time in a few weeks yesterday, almost immediately frustrating.
 
Stop trying to give me pro tips instead of nerfing/removing bolt shot. Y'all don't say that.

"Removing" shit from Halo is part of the reason why we had only a shitty BR to use for years. Work on making it better and nerf when necessary, not remove.

Yes, games.

I can't give you a number but if I'm playing Halo for an hour or two, I can expect one game to be decided on ordnance drops.

Why are games being decided only considered at the end of the game by you guys? I think that shit's a problem throughout because with PO an entire team can have SAWs on a shitty line of sight map like Solace. I'd rather a Binary Rifle spawn next to the enemy at the end of a match then play several minutes defending against random nonsense like that..
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Let's set up some odds for betting HaloGAF: odds that we hear about a TU in tonight's bulletin?

-------------

Oh, and I played Halo 4 for the first time in a few weeks yesterday, almost immediately frustrating.
Can someone explain where the "30 to 1" style numbers for odds come from? Who decides that? Bookies?
 
Yesterday (and you may look in my game history if you'd like), I played two CTF games on Harvest, back to back, one searching solo and one with a friend.

The first game STARTED with only eight players total, and instead of dividing the teams evenly in the pre-game lobby to 4v4, the game began 5 players versus 3. I was on the team with only three players. Throughout the entire game, not a single person joined my team, and coupled with my non-communicating teammates (of which I had a mic and was paired with two players who didn't have mics), I went the entire game getting shit on and losing 4-0.
Gods below, this happens far too much to me in CTF. That, or it's such a painfully obvious happenstance that I remember it more than the games that play relatively smooth.

Example: Played a CTF game last night on Adrift where we scored 2 caps very quickly, and then one of our teammates quit about midway through the 15min game. No one joined up until the very end of the game, and the enemy team and proceeded to mop the floor with us. One guy ended up getting 1,020 points with 47 kills and 3 caps. It was humiliating.
 

TheOddOne

Member
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I caved and was forced to use the AR lying around. Why has it not been nerfed and why do I feel so cheap using it? Life's mysteries.
 

u4iX

Member
When power weapon spawns were static, combat had a flow, with major encounters near the "bigger" spawns and small, 1v1 skirmishes along the way and at "smaller" weapon spawns. It was simple and efficient. Even more than that, it widened the skill gap. Knowing when and where the weapons spawn serves as a tool for predicting enemy movement, as well as assisting a player in determining good areas to take cover and recharge shields. Map movement in Halo 4 isn't methodical at all. Players just move around the map without purpose, or turtle until weapons drop. This may be anecdotal, but I've had many matches (I'd go so far as to say a third or maybe even half) where both teams just turtle on opposite sides of the map; pinging each other with DMRs, waiting for drops.

Ordnance is detrimental to the game in my opinion. It's not dynamic, it's not evolution, it's bad design.

Really good post, and not only that, but the skill gap you speak of worked on a curve.

Lower tiered players who didn't worry about timing weapons, denoted by a lower rank in matchmaking, might never even know how the weapon timers worked. They would know a sniper spawns there, and would check every now and then, and sometimes they'd get lucky and get it. They would have just as much fun, which is subjective mind you, as a hard core player, because the game mechanics and ranking system skewed their experience in their favor.

High tiered players then, since the skill gap works on a curve of both player skill and game knowledge, developed a play style that revolved around the timing of those weapons. Even using them as bait to get kills on the enemy and reclaim the timer in their favor (in Halo 2 and 3 and Reach. Halo 1 had static timers, not dynamic).

Having weapons spawn every two minutes in a random location benefits no one. High tiered players don't really care about them because they're near impossible to predict, add this to the unbearably short weapon despawn time, and all you have to do is focus down the enemy player who happened to get the power weapon and chances are it will *poof* away before the enemy team can really utilize it. Lowered tiered players then don't have map positions and weapon positions to familiarize themselves with, they don't know that "I should hang out near this area, because a power weapon might be there," thus breaking down map flow and movement even from a more casual perspective. Because of this, you get this "clumping" feel in matchmaking, add that to camp-friendly starting weapons and armor abilities and no one is having the best time.

A lot of people are having an okay or even good time, but there's some of the "magic" of Halo multiplayer missing for both parties.
 

Blueblur1

Member
Don't forget instant respawn which allows you to run right back to the same area and continue to be "clumped" together with camping teammates.
 

u4iX

Member
Don't forget instant respawn which allows you to run right back to the same area and continue to be "clumped" together with camping teammates.

Yeah, in the game's current state for me, there's a lot of compounding factors that make the game less enjoyable when looking at all the nuances that hinder the experience.

I mean, it's truly unfortunate their wasn't an open beta. I really think a lot of these issues would have been addressed.

Hindsight is 20/20 and the game is certainly enjoyable as it is, but you get those games where the other team is using "cheesy" AA's and starting weapons, when instant spawns don't go in your favor, Ordnance isn't in your favor, and the experience just becomes really frustrating. From my perspective, it's frustrating because it's a list of things that are out of your control, that you used to fight for control of in previous Halo titles.
 
Let's set up some odds for betting HaloGAF: odds that we hear about a TU in tonight's bulletin?
Gonna bet against it. Seems like 343 is in a holding pattern until the Virgin tournament ends, and that's the 21st right? That's when I think we'll get the most info.

I caved and was forced to use the AR lying around. Why has it not been nerfed and why do I feel so cheap using it? Life's mysteries.
If it was nerfed it would be useless. It has an effective role now.
 
Can someone explain where the "30 to 1" style numbers for odds come from? Who decides that? Bookies?
Set by the book marker but they usually employ a few statistical analyst's to determin a fair but weighted odd in favour of the house.

Many good gamblers use things like game theory to more accurately predict outcomes and play safer smaller bets anything double digits is usually only their for those "feeling lucky" fools who with drop a wad or have a small punt because enough of these people do it that it's profitable barring any big upsets like a 300/1 horse wins that day
 

Karl2177

Member
I'm guessing some Forge maps, some Spartan Ops 1.5 stuff, more details on the Forge playlist, vague hints at what is in the TU, and a <3 bs angel

vv That looks like a penis, Fyre.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Those look weird on Waypoint now, by the way. The font they're using makes it <-3 . I thought people were trying to point of 3 of something in posts at first.
 
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