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[Redford]

Or make it more mid-tier weaponry and bonuses while keeping the truly powerful stuff on the map. The whole design needs to be re-examined.

343 should have all the data they need though. I've got to wonder how much of what they're seeing is unexpected, and how much seems to validate their design changes.

Yeah, what I was getting at. I like seeing people actually use the needler; and dedicating a PO slot to include the user's primary would help the issue of running out of ammo.

(I'm sure this has all been suggested before)

 

[Hydranockz]

Just get rid of all ordnance. I can't think of any implementation that would actually improve the game. All I can think of are lukewarm compromises between classic Halo and 343's vision. I don't want lukewarm compromises. I want Halo.

I haven't a clue what you're on about. Is keeping the waypoints but eliminating the randomness a lukewarm compromise to you?

 

[StayPuft]

Personal Ordnance needs to be more of a resupply delivery than a power weapon delivery.

I second the motion.

 

[squidhands]

But I was only talking about the Ordnance system (what I call just the way the weapons drop and how everyone sees them on the HUD). Random Ordnance is not fun. Admittedly, it's what we have but I was just saying how good the waypoints are for those things.

Okay, I see now. Agree with you completely. This is the one instance where the waypoint in Halo 4 is a good thing.

Personal Ordnance needs to be more of a resupply delivery than a power weapon delivery.

Or like Nullpointer said, mid-tier, modest upgrades. Loadout resupply should have been a given. The SAW, Needler, Boltshot, OS, Camo, Speed Boost are good to have in Personal Ordnance. Including power weapons was a wretched idea, and I hope the persons responsible were appropriately flogged.

 

[Hypertrooper]

First time I've seen that.

Nobody cares about it, so it was posted already. haha

 

[kittens]

I haven't a clue what you're on about. Is keeping the waypoints but eliminating the randomness a lukewarm compromise to you?

Nah, I don't mind the waypoints. Those are unnecessary, but not counter to classic Halo gameplay. I'm referring to keeping either just personal ordnance or global ordnance, or including only resupply ammo in ordnance, or including only mid-tier weapons in ordnance... All of those options have zero appeal to me. Static weapon spawns worked perfectly fine before, and they certainly worked better than 343's ordnance systems.

 

[The Librarian]

Oh my God. My last post has me very, very much wishing to be back in 2008/2009 and playing Team Flag in Halo 3 again. That playlist was so great.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Just get rid of all ordnance. I can't think of any implementation that would actually improve the game. All I can think of are lukewarm compromises between classic Halo and 343's vision. I don't want lukewarm compromises. I want Halo.

Personal ordinance in specific (Infinity) gametypes is a lot of fun. It shouldn't be in everything, but there's no reason to get rid of it. Just give people two slayer options.

Global can go away.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Yeah, I do think the problem is solved just by the ordnance icons visible from across the map.

Randomizing those weapons was meant to address a different issue, namely camping a static power weapon spawn. 343 didn't seem to want that.

Which had never been an issue for the community at large as far as I could tell. Fighting over those parts of the map gave slayer games an extra sense of purpose.

343's attempts to fix stuff that wasn't broken are what make Halo 4 a poor product, IMO. I can live with the poor weapon balancing for a while- nothing unusual about that for a launch title. It's the questionable design decisions that have me scratching my head. Random ordnance, instant respawns, auto objective pickups, flinch and so on.

Who was asking for these things a year ago? Why in the hell are they even in a Halo game?

 

[Hydranockz]

So, if you want mid-tier packages, why not tie them to your loadout?

If I use the DMR, I should always see a DMR appear in the furthest left slot. Tie the other two to your tactical/support packages and hae away with any randomness. Use mobility? Get speedboost as second slot.

Just a thought.

 

[NullPointer]

My ultimate preference is to limit personal ordnance and game changing unlocks to introductory playlists. So say, the first 15-20 levels unlock EVERYTHING there is. I do love personal ordnance as a training tool.

Then shift the players to pro playlists with static spawns, restricted loadout items, skill rankings and unlockable armor, emblems, stances etc.

I honestly think this provides the best balance of both worlds. Accessibility and dynamism to start, with a progression towards more restricted high level play.

Which had never been an issue for the community at large as far as I could tell. Fighting over those parts of the map gave slayer games an extra sense of purpose.

I can't speak for 343, but maybe they're on record somewhere. But maybe they figured that matches would play out too predictably and similarly with static spawns.

 

[Reagan's BR]

Playing that DLC playlist.

Just played a match on Wreckage. Camo campers, Sprint + Sword...this game....


Also did anyone test this map before release? The frame rate is atrocious in the "indoor" area.

 

[Redford]

So, if you want mid-tier packages, why not tie them to your loadout?

If I use the DMR, I should always see a DMR appear in the furthest left slot. Tie the other two to your tactical/support packages and hae away with any randomness. Use mobility? Get speedboost as second slot.

Just a thought.

I didn't get what you were saying for a moment but that actually doesn't sound bad. Would make it easier to get specific weapon commendations too.

Edit: Aside from the fact some people might find it boring.

 

[NullPointer]

So, if you want mid-tier packages, why not tie them to your loadout?

If I use the DMR, I should always see a DMR appear in the furthest left slot. Tie the other two to your tactical/support packages and hae away with any randomness. Use mobility? Get speedboost as second slot.

Just a thought.

That's a damn interesting idea.

 

[Caja 117]

Yeah, I still have never noticed them in-game. I know they're there, but I never see'em, haha, - h.

I actually had to go to youtube to se it because it appears for a splitsecond and not very close to the crosshairs.

 

[Poker Face]

It definitely is already posted here but I haven't seen it at HBO yet:

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/14444432/Brave_New_World:_New_Bungie_IP

WHAT

So they have to at least announce the game before this happens...right?

 

[Hypertrooper]

WHAT

So they have to at least announce the game before this happens...right?

Yes. You are smart. They have to announce the game before the GDC. Or they show nothing.

 

[Hydranockz]

I didn't get what you were saying for a moment but that actually doesn't sound bad.

So Personal Ordnance has 3 slots. What I would suggest would be to let players choose their 'path' so to speak.

Left slot determined by your Primary Weapon.
Middle slot determined by your Tactical package.
Right determined by the Support Package.

How that would handle 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tiers I dunno.

Maybe something like:

Loadout Choice = 1st > 2nd > 3rd

DMR = DMR Ammo > DMR Ammo > Sniper
AR = AR Ammo > AR Ammo > SAW

Edit: Obviously adding in other sandbox stuff to that will make it more interesting.

Adding stuff like AAs into the PO system would expand what there is too.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Damn. I have a chance to visit Bungie again next wednesday but I have important classes that night.

 

[The Librarian]

343, if and when you guys streamline the playlists, please bring back Team Flag.

Damn. I have a chance to visit Bungie again next wednesday but I have important classes that night.

You can just quickly stop by and touch the door knob.

 

[EagleBurnn]

Yes. You are smart. They have to announce the game before the GDC. Or they show nothing.

Is this sarcasm? I know very little about GDC

 

[Poker Face]

Yes. You are smart. They have to announce the game before the GDC. Or they show nothing.

Well I don't know, they may show things behind closed doors and not make the game announcement until E3.

:shrugs:

 

[kittens]

Yes. You are smart. They have to announce the game before the GDC. Or they show nothing.

Haha, god damn.

 

[GrizzNKev]

You can just quickly stop by and touch the door knob.

There's going to be a presentation in their theater discussing post mortems of finished kickstarter projects. It's part of an ongoing series aimed at indie devs, their last one was about Steam Greenlight and people from Valve talked about how they created it.

Pretty cool stuff, wish I could go to this one.

I almost couldn't find them the last time I went, they're snugly nestled within an upscale shopping center but they're not listed on the directory outside. I just followed the guy wearing the Bungie shirt up some stairs.

 

[YourExWife]

Yeah, I still have never noticed them in-game. I know they're there, but I never see'em, hah.

I use them mostly to make sure my grenades hurt someone. That's about it.


On the topic of ordnance, can we please switch grenades without having to call down our awaiting ordnance? All thinking people of the world would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[NullPointer]

On the topic of ordnance, can we please switch grenades without having to call down our awaiting ordnance? All thinking people of the world would appreciate it. Thanks.

Hehe. That is annoying.

*switches to plasma grenades*
*gets ordnance drop*

 

[Hypertrooper]

Is this sarcasm? I know very little about GDC

GDC is a expo for game developers. Joe Staten and Christopher will talk about the new IP of course. You can check by if you buy yourself a all access pass and fly to SF.

Well I don't know, they may show things behind closed doors and not make the game announcement until E3.

:shrugs:

I think they don't want another leak. Either they will announce it before GDC or it will be the first public showing. But I expect to see destiny very soon.

 

[Bregmann Roche]

This is maddening. There is absolutely no relevant information in the lobby. None. Couldn't care less how someone's Spartan looks, or what Specialization they're currently grinding towards. <snip> In a game that is overflowing with extraneous information, the lobby is woefully inadequate.

What you are getting at is the Halo 4 syndrome of adding a ton of new features that either contradict themselves or ruin other features.

1. HEADSHOT +10 is in the game, but don't worry because you won't even notice it. THEN WHY THE FUCK IS IT IN THE GAME?

2. Less experienced players struggle with static weapon spawns, so 343 put in random spawns that do nothing to improve the less experienced players' games while simultaneously ruining the more experienced players' games.

3. Buy the LE to get early access to specializations...that everyone else will get access to at roughly the same time you do because 343 buried specializations behind an inexplicable "end game leveling system".

4. JiP puts an end to the miserable experience of playing the last 3-5 minutes of an 8v2 game while introducing the brand new misery of playing an entire game 5v3 from start to finish.

5. The entirety of the Forge changes.

I could go on, but this is the core issue with Halo 4. It doesn't know what it wants to be half the time and the rest of the time it's a shadow of what it should be.

I don't want lukewarm compromises. I want Halo.

They aren't compromises, they're "evolutions". In this context "evolutions" means "things that other successful franchises did".

 

[ElRenoRaven]

So can't wait. Even if Bungie doesn't go into details, their presentations on the way they make games are some of the most interesting ones I've seen out there.

 

[Talents]

-Assault Rifle - this weapon just isn't viable at a higher skill rank, I think they should tighten up the accuracy and increase the range to make it more competitive

 

[NullPointer]

4. JiP puts an end to the miserable experience of playing the last 3-5 minutes of an 8v2 game while introducing the brand new misery of playing an entire game 5v3 from start to finish.

JIP is awesome and works for me every time. Looks like they need to get it to be more reliable for others though.

 

[u4iX]

Set weapon spawns work only as long as players know the location on the map for each weapon. For competitively minded players and many 'good'-tier players this is largely not a problem. You've felt the feeling every time a new map drops. You haven't a clue where to go. you have ideas where you might expect to see some kind of weapon. BR/AR near spawn with the more powerful weapons being further away.

Something to consider. When a change takes place between MLG's version of the Pit and Bungie's. If I run to sword and see a plasma pistol, I feel confused. I know the layouts changed, but I find it hard to remember. This is no doubt a feeing I'm sure you've all felt at some time too.

Perhaps a large portion of the playerbase never really learned 'all' the weapon spawns. It's easy to say how easy it is to learn the positions now because you already now them. I watched a few people play through Campaign and they were struggling to locate guns. I was handed the controller and knew to look just off the beaten track so to speak.

In that regard, surely you can see where 343 are coming from with Ordnance. From the beginning of the match everyone has the same knowledge of weapons on the map. Initial runs to weapons still happen but this time everyone can see the Sticky Detonator on one side of Haven and the Needler on the other.

This knowledge is also applied to Ordnance drops during the game and this has a very serious implication for newer maps and Forged maps should they ever get a significant percentage of MM maps.

When you play a match on a new map called Mt Beef Beef, you haven't a fucking clue where anything is. You can only guess but even then, you never really know for certain unless you are specifically told or you load it up in Forge/Theater. So now you're left with a dilemma. Do we expect everyone to load up every new map in Forge to get familiar with it? Even the people who just want to play?

So what are we left with?

Simply, Ordnance is 343's way of acknowledging that weapon spawns will change. Whether they change the initial spawns on Haven. Whether Fyrewulff adds 32 power weapons to SuperCragmire. Whether Cyren tweaks the weapons on Over's variant of Asylum. Whether 343 adds 42 Forge variants to MM overnight. In every situation, every player is given the same knowledge. It's a very efficient solution at that.

Sure the randomness isn't ideal but it isn't bad design either especially when you consider what the goal might have been.

I agree with this and I initially thought I saw 343's vision, to give the casual player as much info as the competitive player, but the competitive player having a slight "edge" by being able to set up for the weapons ahead of time.

Unfortunately the system is completely borked, right down to the wrong weapons appearing on the Waypoint.

Let's think of how it could have worked though. Imagine if on MLG's version of The Pit, off the initial spawn there simply was no image of the sword in the sword room. Instead, as you approached it, you saw the Plasma Pistol. (Note: you had to approach it because waypoint's appear at a shorter distance for non-power weapons in this "perfect world.")

Now, snipers appear at the towers every two minutes. So, you see them on the initial spawn in this MLG variant, and you see them right as they spawn after two minutes. The advantage for the "higher tiered" player comes in because he knew it would be there in two minutes, so perhaps he made his way over their before the "lower tiered" player and was ready for him.

That's how I pictured these ordnance waypoints working... and it's not at all how they work.

I use them mostly to make sure my grenades hurt someone. That's about it.


On the topic of ordnance, can we please switch grenades without having to call down our awaiting ordnance? All thinking people of the world would appreciate it. Thanks.

They just should have made cycling through grenades "up" on the d-pad. Honestly, this is one of the most baffling oversights to me.

 

[NullPointer]

Unfortunately the system is completely borked, right down to the wrong weapons appearing on the Waypoint.

Pretty sure this has been fixed.

 

[Steelyuhas]

It definitely is already posted here but I haven't seen it at HBO yet:

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/14444432/Brave_New_World:_New_Bungie_IP

No one reads HBO, so thanks for posting. Hyped as shit for that.

Also, means we pretty much have 2 months max until the game is officially announced, can't wait to see it.

I haven't a clue what you're on about. Is keeping the waypoints but eliminating the randomness a lukewarm compromise to you?

Yes, if they were so concerned with poor players or new players being at a disadvantage not knowing where the weapons spawn, then just use a waypoint for new weapons coming in. There was no need to butcher flow of maps and remove of the main factors of important areas of map control.

Pretty sure this has been fixed.

I saw it happen yesterday.

 

[Bregmann Roche]

That's how I pictured these ordnance waypoints working... and it's not at all how they work.

Same here. It was the only way that made sense when all of the info about the ordnance system first came out. Oh, past Bregmann, how I laugh at your ignorance.

 

[Havok]

JIP is awesome and works for me every time. Looks like they need to get it to be more reliable for others though.

I just want the ability to turn it off. I never want to go into a game and not be able to participate in the opening rush. It's one of my favorite parts of Halo, and getting dumped in without any idea what the playing field looks like totally sucks. Even when I go into 5v5 lists with four people including myself, we get JIP games and that baffles me.

For folks that don't care about that stuff and just want fast matchmaking, more power to them, don't turn it off. I just don't want it forced on me.

They just should have made cycling through grenades "up" on the d-pad. Honestly, this is one of the most baffling oversights to me.

Up is reserved for the "Reroll Ordnance" command in the Tracker specialization's Requisition mod, sorry. That thing that appears in one game mode for 1% of players was more important.

 

[Hydranockz]

I agree with this and I initially thought I saw 343's vision, to give the casual player as much info as the competitive player, but the competitive player having a slight "edge" by being able to set up for the weapons ahead of time.

Unfortunately the system is completely borked, right down to the wrong weapons appearing on the Waypoint.

Let's think of how it could have worked though. Imagine if on MLG's version of The Pit, off the initial spawn there simply was no image of the sword in the sword room. Instead, as you approached it, you saw the Plasma Pistol. (Note: you had to approach it because waypoint's appear at a shorter distance for non-power weapons in this "perfect world.")

Now, snipers appear at the towers every two minutes. So, you see them on the initial spawn in this MLG variant, and you see them right as they spawn after two minutes. The advantage for the "higher tiered" player comes in because he knew it would be there in two minutes, so perhaps he made his way over their before the "lower tiered" player and was ready for him.

That's how I pictured these ordnance waypoints working... and it's not at all how they work.



They just should have made cycling through grenades "up" on the d-pad. Honestly, this is one of the most baffling oversights to me.

Agreed. Having said that, it's the sort of thing I could 'potentially' see coming to a TU near you. I think it's a great system that just needs tweaks.

Like, even for casting it would be good. You can see that someone's heading to sniper spawn but then hey, presto, the viewers can see the hud popup and can be amazed at how the pro knew it'd be there.

 

[YourExWife]

They just should have made cycling through grenades "up" on the d-pad. Honestly, this is one of the most baffling oversights to me.

But then how would they possibly implement the "re-roll your odnance" perk? I hear that was an entirely necessary addition that required removing a simple functionality you've had for a decade.

 

[Korosenai]

I just made a second account. In halo 3. In 2013.

28 people currently on team dubs.

 

[Gazzawa]

But then how would they possibly implement the "re-roll your odnance" perk? I hear that was an entirely necessary addition that required removing a simple functionality you've had for a decade.

9.8

 

[u4iX]

But then how would they possibly implement the "re-roll your odnance" perk? I hear that was an entirely necessary addition that required removing a simple functionality you've had for a decade.

Oh, I haven't even gone for that Specialization so I had no idea.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I can't speak for 343, but maybe they're on record somewhere. But maybe they figured that matches would play out too predictably and similarly with static spawns.

Oh, I'm not holding your feet to the fire to explain anything on 343's behalf. My rant was directed squarely at them.

Their justification for global ordnance as near as I can tell is to try and level the playing field between new and experienced players. This makes no sense on multiple levels. The "problem" as they saw it was that Team A knew where and when the weapons would spawn, and team B (noobs) didn't, so they got donged on, and then presumably left the game forever due to the frustration. Their solution was to tip the scales by making it so that neither Team A or Team B ever has any idea what in the hell is going on with respect to power weapons. Not very elegant.

The truth is that if the matchmaking system is doing its job, Team A and Team B from the above scenario shouldn't even be playing each other in the first place. Beyond that, if Team B is full of scrubs, their job is to work at getting better- individually and collectively. The developer's job, IMO- is not to try and level the playing field for scrub players- that cheapens and waters down the experience for everybody. The focus, instead, should be on making sure that matchmaking is working properly and finding even or near-even matches for teams.

The other issue with random global ordnance is the unintended consequences of what it does in a game between 2 evenly matched teams. In prior Halo games, the match might well be decided by one team or the other taking a calculated risk in trying to gain control of a power weapon location near the end of the game. In Halo 4, this scenario is replaced by what amounts to a roll of the dice.

Not fun, IMO.

 

[JHall]

If they removed flinch/added descoping, gave an option to remove sprint, and made the movement/strafe Halo 2 tier.

I'd play this game again. Customs only of course.

 

[u4iX]

If they removed flinch/added descoping, gave an option to remove sprint, and made the movement/strafe Halo 2 tier.

I'd play this game again. Customs only of course.

I think part of the reason people feel Halo 2 had the "fastest" strafe is because of the field of view. Wasn't it one of the lowest out of all the Halo titles?

I could be way off base with this though. It's been a while...

 

[YourExWife]

Oh, I haven't even gone for that Specialization so I had no idea.

That's kind of my point. Even if you have the specialization unlocked, unless you're currently using a loadout that makes use of it, that up button is never used. Putting the grenade switch on there would still have made more sense, considering the rest of the D-Pad is used for PO, whereas the up button is only negated for grenades *IF* you're using that (fairly pointless) perk.

 

[JackHerer]

If they removed flinch/added descoping, gave an option to remove sprint, and made the movement/strafe Halo 2 tier.

I'd play this game again. Customs only of course.

I would prefer they just bring back getting knocked out of scope. Otherwise sniper rifles will be even more dominant than they are now.

Problem is, I don't see this happening considering they added the Stability perk and this would effectively eliminate that specialization. I hope I'm wrong and they are willing to drastically revamp things like this.

 

[u4iX]

That's kind of my point. Even if you have the specialization unlocked, unless you're currently using a loadout that makes use of it, that up button is never used. Putting the grenade switch on there would still have made more sense, considering the rest of the D-Pad is used for PO, whereas the up button is only negated for grenades *IF* you're using that (fairly pointless) perk.

Maybe they could have made it "hold up to re-roll" or something...

Nah, too much sense is being made.

 

[JHall]

I think part of the reason people feel Halo 2 had the "fastest" strafe is because of the field of view. Wasn't it one of the lowest out of all the Halo titles?

I could be way off base with this though. It's been a while...

I'll hook up the old Xbox when I get home and see. It has been awhile.

 

[Dirtbag]

I agree with this and I initially thought I saw 343's vision, to give the casual player as much info as the competitive player, but the competitive player having a slight "edge" by being able to set up for the weapons ahead of time.

Unfortunately the system is completely borked, right down to the wrong weapons appearing on the Waypoint.

Let's think of how it could have worked though. Imagine if on MLG's version of The Pit, off the initial spawn there simply was no image of the sword in the sword room. Instead, as you approached it, you saw the Plasma Pistol. (Note: you had to approach it because waypoint's appear at a shorter distance for non-power weapons in this "perfect world.")

Now, snipers appear at the towers every two minutes. So, you see them on the initial spawn in this MLG variant, and you see them right as they spawn after two minutes. The advantage for the "higher tiered" player comes in because he knew it would be there in two minutes, so perhaps he made his way over their before the "lower tiered" player and was ready for him.

That's how I pictured these ordnance waypoints working... and it's not at all how they work.

The problem is these are two tiers of players that shouldnt be matched against each other anyway.
All this system does is create a random environment were lower levels of play aren't that affected, and higher tiered players have an unfair environment created at random.
Further skewed by perks that effect the rate at which they power up, and information relating to these random ordinances.

 

[Released]

I think part of the reason people feel Halo 2 had the "fastest" strafe is because of the field of view. Wasn't it one of the lowest out of all the Halo titles?

I could be way off base with this though. It's been a while...

H2's FoV is low, but low a FoV actually contributes to a slower feel to the movement. Watch this.