You'll only gain some people with free to play. You'll gain much more with a better game.
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Halo |OT16| Oh Bungie, Where Art Thou?
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You'll only gain some people with free to play. You'll gain much more with a better game.
The Henery
Member
LOL!
Hey Fyrewulff, what you're saying about MLG is a bit like finding your dad's vibrator when looking for his porn stash: wrong.
Twilight Gap
Member
Maybe that's the reason that it sucks?
The people who played Halo because of its equal footing now have no reason to play it over any other game out there. If Halo is to really change and become a random class-based shooter, then those people - myself included - will not stick around. The audience Halo is trying to attract was never interested in Halo to begin with. The people who were are now being displaced, and ultimately nobody wins.
I was one of the guys who used to say "Sprint is part of Halo now so we might as well get used to it", but that was just me attempting to justify something that I thought that I liked. In actuality, it's not part of Halo, but of the modern shooter crowd (insert every other FPS out there). Halo already had fast movement and small maps, thus negating the need for Sprint. Halo plays just as good as it always did without Sprint, and it will play the same way with its general removal.
Go ahead and pop in Halo CE, Halo 2, or Halo 3. All of the best [Halo] maps would be ruined by literally everything in Halo 4, just like most remakes were in Reach.
Halo is not going to compete with Call of Duty right now, and that's okay. What's important is that there's still a game out there that isn't following the trends, but either keeping to its roots or doing something completely new instead.
You can't be a leader from the back of the line; you can't attract new players by following the other games. Do something different - something fresh and original for shooters as a whole - and they will show up. If you build it, they will come.
This doesn't mean put "classic Halo" in one corner of the game either. If default isn't core Halo, then what's the point? You're moving your new pets into your home and locking your lifetime companion in one room. The new pet is the one that's supposed to be slowly introduced.
I bet all 3 of my legs that Halo would be a lot better if "Infinity Slayer" and whatever other new things they add are introduced in a "Beta playlist" first, and then slowly introduced in portions of the game. But that should not replace the old gameplay, because then people who played Halo for that (aka, almost everybody who liked it for what it was) are left dissatisfied.
I was just in another thread that Fyrewulff posted in and speaking about vibrators has never been so relevant.
What about it?
Flag was switched often between default and pro. Assault, despite the disarms and absence of contesting/sticky arming, was still fun. Three Plots is still one of my favorite gametypes, although Reach didn't have the maps really setup for it, or at least the ones picked for MM did not. King and Oddball were still around; Bungie designed Hot Potato for who the hell know's why. There's more positives than negatives from it all - not perfect by any means but still more favorable than Halo 3's set and certainly more than Halo 4's.
Twilight Gap
Member
I miss that, but lol true skill
Exactly. I personally am not a fan of Super Mario, but I wouldn't want it to change just to get me interested, and I'm sure its fans wouldn't want that either.
ElzarTheBam
Member
Read had even worse maps, had terrible bloom and scattered gametype setting across playlists.
Jetpack and Active Camo were even back then my biggest grudge.
But Reach had no bullshit weapons like Halo 4 had, it didn't have loudouts and no flinch.
I really dislike Reach and can't go back to it because there is not one map I would like to play, outside of the mlg playlist maybe.
But Halo 4 has problems that are even more annoying.
THat being sad I still love Halo 3
Jetpack and Active Camo were even back then my biggest grudge.
But Reach had no bullshit weapons like Halo 4 had, it didn't have loudouts and no flinch.
I really dislike Reach and can't go back to it because there is not one map I would like to play, outside of the mlg playlist maybe.
But Halo 4 has problems that are even more annoying.
THat being sad I still love Halo 3
Whether it sucks wasn't relevant to my point. It's Halo now. People need to get over that and start suggesting useful things instead of "remove all AAs!" or whatever. It's not gonna happen now.
Admittedly I've hardly ever been one to suggest anything particularly useful. BUT, I do see the need to accept the fact that Halo has changed. You either like it or you don't, but there is no going back now.
Redundant. The main problem with sprint is that people who complain about the game not playing like Halo CE or 2 don't have the option to disable it. Everyone else doesn't care.
And that literally means anything other than the maps made 11 years ago didn't account for the changes in future titles that they had no idea about during the designing process?
Do something fresh and original... like making a Halo CE/2 hybrid? Right? That's what your post it pretty much suggesting at the top of the page. So original.
I'm not happy with the direction Halo 4 took, neither are a lot of other people. But the Halo CE/2 days are looong gone. Whether you, me or anyone else on this forum likes it or not, CoD has changed the way people view games through its immense popularity. An FPS without sprint (for example) is now considered sluggish and outdated regardless of whether the movement speed was "fast enough" already. Being a hipster game and ignoring these features that are taken for granted isn't going to win you fans.
I should just post a population chart and be done, but I'll say this. Shoehorning in features another game popularized isn't going to win you fans either. Take Halo 4 for example.
Of course. There certainly needs to be a balance of introducing new features and sticking with the old. But IMO, remaking Halo CE/2 isn't any more of an answer than just throwing in whatever from other popular games.
Twilight Gap
Member
The falcon was Halo and that was removed. No bleedthrough was Halo and that was removed. Elites in matchmaking were Halo and that was removed. Armor Lock was Halo and that was removed. Healthpacks were Halo and that was removed. Dual Wielding was Halo and that was removed.
That's just as bad an argument as any other one. Halo changes all the time - often for worse - so there's no reason these things can't be removed.
The problem with Sprint is that it really does nothing positive for the game other than have it catch up to "modern times". The cons far outweigh the pros.
The overwhelming majority of the maps made since these changes were implemented have been bad. What does that say about the gameplay mechanics introduced since then?
Either go back to your roots or do something different. That's what that part of my post was suggesting. Doing something different does not mean following CoD.
Halo sticking to what makes it work does not make it a "hipster". Halo doesn't need the features that are "immensely popular". It never did and it never will. You think you're trying to be a realist, but you're instead trying to validate effectively driving the series into the ground to cater to an audience that does not exist.
The Halo CE/2 days are long gone because the developers are getting rid of it, and that doesn't sit well with halo players. I don't like to play the population card, but it speaks for itself. The majority of people who played during the first week either left to play Black Ops II or just left for good. What else needs to be said?
This doesn't even need to be debated anymore because all of the evidence and facts - objective or anecdotal - are there to support it. Bring Halo back to its roots or do something different. Follow behind CoD, and you will forever trail in the dust.
We should never settle for mediocrity.
NobleGundam
Banned
I think what made Reach tolerable to continue for both social & competitive playing was mainly because of Forge Community & Team Classics at the time. After those were gone it was only BTB, Invasion, Zombies, Team Snipes, Arena but even they were tolerable for so long. I did enjoy MLG but it had too many tryhards and very limited maps that were fun.
Squad Slayer was good, but for some fucked up reason I almost always teamed with BKs that sorta ruined playing it again.
Were the DLC/Anniversary playlists ever good? I played the Noble & Defiant Maps in MM which weren't all bad. But was Anniversary any good?
Twilight Gap
Member
Other than host pistol, I really really like it. I play it a lot now.
I don't think anyone really thinks that the new features alone attributed to the decline, but it certainly drove away players. Other things that could have done that also (as far as H4 is considered) are the lack of features instead. But as you said, the other part of the story would be things like industry mindset, install base, post-game content, release time, etc.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
That population chart would not tell the entire story (industry shifts, etc.) and you can't skip over the successful sales Halo 4 had, whether you attribute that to name alone or not. The population decline is worrying, but as mentioned before, you have to wonder if other outside influences are affecting that drop too, not just gameplay changes. During Halo 2, and even Halo 3 there were far less options for big multiplayer shooters, especially on console.
It is entirely possible the dip is a direct effect from the gameplay changes, but you absolutely cannot rule out any talk of the industry as it is now, compared to what it was a few years ago. Reach showed Halo could retain population, but was it Reach that began the decline?
Basically my point is one cannot assume that 100% of the population issues are direct result from adding sprint, or keeping AA's, you have to account for other outside influences as well.
no bullets hans
Neo Member
I think the DMR in Reach was fine because you were a Spartan-III and that weapon helped to give the combat enough of a change of feel that you were always aware that you weren't Master Chief...from a fiction related perspective anyway, which is one of the big draws to Halo.
I liken it to the SMG's from ODST. These were deliberate departures from the norm to anchor you in the experience of being someone other than MC.
That being said, I don't think the DMR necessarily belonged in Halo 4. I think it would have been an interesting choice to include it in MM only and not have the BR in MM at all to deliberately disconnect the Spartan-II platform from the Spartan-IV.
But then, I'm not really as analytic as most of you guys. I just play for the pretty colors and boom booms.
That being said, AA can go die in a fire. Halo 3 did it best. Give me something to pick up and use once at will. Bubble shield is fun in a firefight but it's useless against a hammer. You couldn't ever use it to grief anyone.
I liken it to the SMG's from ODST. These were deliberate departures from the norm to anchor you in the experience of being someone other than MC.
That being said, I don't think the DMR necessarily belonged in Halo 4. I think it would have been an interesting choice to include it in MM only and not have the BR in MM at all to deliberately disconnect the Spartan-II platform from the Spartan-IV.
But then, I'm not really as analytic as most of you guys. I just play for the pretty colors and boom booms.
That being said, AA can go die in a fire. Halo 3 did it best. Give me something to pick up and use once at will. Bubble shield is fun in a firefight but it's useless against a hammer. You couldn't ever use it to grief anyone.
I disliked the forge community maps by their look and most of them weren't even tested with jetpack I got the feeling.
The dlc playlists weren't that bad but still not really great, bad weapon placements. Anniversary was ok, but at this point it wasn't that interesting anymore for me.
I don't to sound like I think Halo 4's maps are great, they aren't but I think Reach's gameplay on Halo 4's maps would have been better... just talking about the sandbox, no loudouts, kick out of zoom.. base speed and jump high in Halo 4 are good.
MrGreencastle
Member
Halo 2/3-style Halo never got a chance. It was just changed for the sake of it from Reach on, and we haven't gone back since, just further into the rabbit hole. Sure they've been more successful since, but they have not held the same numbers and so many communities have been left fractured. You can blame that on a multitude of things and external factors outside of anyone's control, but the fact remains that the game was fundamentally changed in Reach and even more in 4. That's something 343 does have control over. So respond in kind. I like the tools idea the most, I think.
Feels like Halo.
Feels like Halo.
Twilight Gap
Member
Am I the only one who doesn't see people doing custom games in H4 anymore?
Reach held people because it was a non numbered sequel that most people believed was a "one off" title (similar to ODST). The general assumption seemed to be Halo 4 would take us back to the "Halo" feel. Then the Conan BR footage was released and it appeared as if the community had gotten what they wanted; a return to a Halo without classes/loadouts/AA/etc.
At this point preorders were made, hype went through the roof, and people were optimistic. As more and more information was revealed, however, the community became skeptical, even salty. We were told it "feels like Halo" and to "trust us." Some held the company line, some defected completely, and most just bought the game thinking custom options, etc., could fix whatever was mucked up.
For the most part, in my opinion, people were disappointed with the "final" product. Spartan Ops was repetitive and shallow, forge was very frustrating, ranks were gone, sandbox elements were added that drastically altered the core of Halo gameplay, classic gametypes disappeared, sprint was made permanent. The list could go on for a full page.
This above all seems to account for the decimation of popularity. Players bought the game, found out it wasn't really what they wanted (many would say wasn't really "Halo"), and they chose to move on.
At this point preorders were made, hype went through the roof, and people were optimistic. As more and more information was revealed, however, the community became skeptical, even salty. We were told it "feels like Halo" and to "trust us." Some held the company line, some defected completely, and most just bought the game thinking custom options, etc., could fix whatever was mucked up.
For the most part, in my opinion, people were disappointed with the "final" product. Spartan Ops was repetitive and shallow, forge was very frustrating, ranks were gone, sandbox elements were added that drastically altered the core of Halo gameplay, classic gametypes disappeared, sprint was made permanent. The list could go on for a full page.
This above all seems to account for the decimation of popularity. Players bought the game, found out it wasn't really what they wanted (many would say wasn't really "Halo"), and they chose to move on.
MrGreencastle
Member
Custom games need custom options. Halo 4 launched with half of them broken, and the other half missing (hyperbole). Custom maps didn't come out because file shares didn't work and forge was regressed from Reach.
Some of that stuff was fixed/added, but not before a massive chunk of the population dropped the game, too. So 343 essentially has had to rebuild communities from scratch by throwing bones all around, though the speed at which they've done so has left some people more bitter than others.
But the customs community has started to become more active I think. Or at least, we're starting to a lot more activity since fileshares and forge island were added.
NobleGundam
Banned
Interesting points. The Forge Community DID had several maps that were broken. I didn't even know how bad they were once Jetpack was added into them till now.
Will really consider playing Anniversary playlist now after reading your guy's opinions.
And to the bolded - YES. Hell Yes<3
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Also:
Me - "Will Axis Be Creating Animation Content For Future Halo Titles In Partnership With 343 Industries?"
Axis Animation - "We'd love to but you'd need to ask 343 Industries the answer to that!"
Spill It, 343!!
Do you like BTB in H4? If you do then it's probably worth it. If not, don't because that's all the maps really are. The playlist is 6v6 and (imo) doesn't play very well. Only decent map is Daybreak and it is still not very good because of how OP the Banshee is on it. Also, one side has a big advantage in CTF which makes it not very fun to play.
Twilight Gap
Member
Reached SR 50. What specialization should I nerd up now?
This. I played Reach because I thought it would be a spin off title.I thought halo 4 would be the saving grace ( not really) of halo. boy was I wrong.
343 has evil marketing. the first bits of the game looked FANTASTIC, but every detail that was revealed kept getting worse and worse. Sprint, AAs, and finally ordnance were all scorned by the fans. who knows if the remaining >50k people still playing like those changes.I know for a fact that the 400k that played on launch day don't. Even a babby scrub bk like me still wants a fair game. not this halo-cod hybrid yelping for players like a dying dog.
I like... Doritos! *NSFW*
The Real Napsta
Member
Explain please.
Onikaan
Member
I agree.
Last night a few friends and I tried to play some 4. It was just so disheartening. Every match was filled with LIES. I have no idea what I'm up against half the time, does this guy have the grenade damage perk? God knows. Because I played Halo from the very beginning, I have this grizzled ancient syndrome where I attempt to play the game like it was Halo 2/3. I don't use AA's proficiently and I suffer because of it. I just want to play Halo, I don't want to drop a Health Regeneration field mid fight and I don't want the guy I'm out DMRing to whip out a shield and let his buddy pick me off with a weapon you can't fail with (I'm looking at you, Incineration). It might be the hip and happening new Halo, but it's not the Halo I know.
Also, I noticed this fairly early on but there's something lacking in 4's visual feedback. Yesterday on Exile I was blown to smithereens out of know where, if it wasn't for the spawn cam I would have never known the tank hit me from across the map. And why don't we have big red X's anymore? Those tiny white things are only up for a fraction of a second.
The casual approach match making is taking is also several steps backwards. Halo was one of those online games where you really felt like you were sitting down on the sofa with friends every time you went into Match making. Now people come and go as they like, resulting in uncoordinated and imbalanced matches. It doesn't help that there's no ranked playlists. This game is hell if you go into MM alone.
I think for the next one 343 need to think more about how to make people use the guns. Running in and slamming melee twice isn't a new trick but it's certainly getting more use these days, thanks to everyone having sprint. One melee hit should not take a full shield down. If these melee go happy folks learn that they have a better chance of winning a duel by actually using the weapon, they'll soon cut it out, or quit, both conclusions suit me fine.
And before you say it I know fine well the old days are gone. Fine, I accept that's how it's going to be. It's just a damn shame.
I liked Halo.
Twilight Gap
Member
Good post and I agree. I still like it, but it's hard to enjoy it now when it's buried under all these things you feel either shouldn't be there or would be better off gone. Like, you get in a vehicle and suddenly everyone on the map has a plasma pistol looking at you. That's just... what's the point in vehicles?
The damage indicators don't seem to be as direct as they could, which is odd considering how active the HUD is.
I should also correct my previous statement about Daybreak.
YourExWife
Member
~~~(|======8
I've been following Halo since the beginning and personally I've had literally no problem adjusting from each game to the next. I don't see what everyone is crying about in relation to the changes made. Personally the only infuriating thing for me in Halo 4 was the boltshot and wasn't that fixed now?
Sprint is something that should've been in it from the beginning, You're a fucking supersoldier, you're telling me you shouldn't be able to sprint??
MaxRealflugel
Neo Member
I hope 343i take the ODST route eventually and do somthing similar, but with Blue Team.
Halo 4 is good. In fact it's great, as a campaign game. But multiplayer is flawed and seems aimed at helping those who aren't that good at it online -- me.
And the same old maps seem to appear all of the time. I'd also like to recover a previously dropped weapon. Instead of running back to find out that it's vanished into thin air.
Halo 4 is good. In fact it's great, as a campaign game. But multiplayer is flawed and seems aimed at helping those who aren't that good at it online -- me.
And the same old maps seem to appear all of the time. I'd also like to recover a previously dropped weapon. Instead of running back to find out that it's vanished into thin air.
Thank god it wasn't in. Would have ruined Midship.
This pisses me off SO much.
Twilight Gap
Member
Would have ruined just about every map.
ODST is the only Halo game I can say that would have actually benefited from Sprint. I liked it in Reach for Campaign and Invasion, but it led to so many issues everywhere else.
I haven't had that problem in a while. Had that issue closer to launch but I don't remember any weapons disappearing recently.
In that bulletin where everyone was asking questions I remember that they claim that weapons disappear in MM that quickly only to keep the number of power weapons down. It seems like it's actually technical limitation and it's stupid that they would lie about that.
Poker Face
Member
Most people here have been following the franchise since CE (myself included). Change is 100% fine if it's something that adds and builds upon the foundation that was put down in CE, like adding new modes and weapons. Look at Forge, Theater, Firefight, Assault, Juggernaut, Territories, Dominion (would be fun if there was an overhaul), Extraction etc. Those are all fantastic additions that didn't drastically change was made Halo, Halo. New weapons like Beam Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Railgun, are all interesting additions to the sandbox that didn't change the way Halo played.
Adding things LIKE custom loadouts, armor abilities, sprint, ordnance, global ordnance, instant respawn, JiP etc drastically changes how Halo is played, not to mention the frustration these things add to the game.
Also, sprint is awful. Gameplay is more important than "I'm a super solider I should be able to do this!"
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I Can agree with this biut 85% and ZBR are nice
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Sprint is not awful. Get outta here. Too many big maps is the awful thing. Haven is a great map and sprint works fine on it. We just need more maps like that.
I think it's both. They despawn in campaign a bit slower but still much faster than previous games--personally i didn't run into the problem much since my play style is about pressing forward rather than backtracking to scrounge. The multi despawn was probably influenced by the limitations and to keep power weapons down.
I never really felt like I noticed bloom when playing Reach, but going back after 4 I feel like half my shots miss. Perception is everything I guess.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
I think they should release a standalone Halo multiplayer game for next gen, and have the Campaign games as downloadable packs, and all a reduced price. They should give players the tools to craft their own experience. Release around ten fan-favourite maps at launch, and let players create their own maps and gametypes with a full-fledged map/weapon/vehicle/AA/Equipment editor along with some sort of Megalo editor. They could get some competitive players and Forgers to come in and help them create the ultimate competitive experience, and add in features that would greatly benefit e-sports (streaming, spectator mode, etc). Giving players the tools to create custom Campaign, Spartan Ops and Firefight experiences would also lead to amazing creations by the community. They could make money by having microtransactions, like armour packs, achievements packs, etc, and also by selling downloadable Campaign missions set in a variety of settings and featuring stories from across the Halo universe. Also, map creators can also be given the ability to monetize their creations, while 343 takes a small percentage. A global armour system would be necessary if they were to sell armour, though, but if they also have different species that are playable (perhaps have limited customisation for all of them except Spartans and maybe Elites?). All this, IMO, would make an amazing Halo game. What makes PC games great is modding, and if Halo can implement that, I'm sure tons of PC gamers would buy the Nextbox and Halo. I know a lot of my friends would.
Onikaan
Member
Well I think it's great that you're open minded enough to just get on with it. Unfortunately after too much time spent playing Halo and countless competitive LAN parties, I've become comfortable with what I think Halo is, or should be. Some say I need to build a bridge and get over it, but the fact of the matter is I struggle to enjoy the game these days which is what leads me to nit pick and complain like an old man about "the good old days".
My problem isn't really with sprint, it's the combination of sprint and melee damage. Which is entirely melee's fault. Or is it sprint?
This really needs to be addressed again. It's not good enough that a skilled player can take out a guy that's wielding a power weapon and not get to his corpse in time to claim his reward for the kill.
I almost liked Ordinance until I saw how badly it swung the game in a better teams favour. There's no coming back from that kind of carnage. Sure the game will be over quickly but I'd like a chance to redeem myself. That doesn't include being sniped, blown up and fried simultaneously.
Twilight Gap
Member
Yea, Sprint works on the one "good" map in the game, which is still a pretty big map.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
The one good small map. I like a handful of the BTB maps, the issue is that we lack any solid maps of smaller scale. Sprint isn't the problem, the map selection is.
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