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Halo |OT16| Oh Bungie, Where Art Thou?

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O

Orochinagis

Member
MrGreencastle said:
Part of me wants to wait on a possible Link to the Past 2 edition XL. This was pretty hot:
legend-of-zelda-3ds-25th-anniversary.jpg
Click to expand...


Sexy, too bad they sell the XL at 400 dll here.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
HTupolev said:
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I'm not denying that the water is being affected by the geometry around it; it very obviously is. I'm saying that it's not reciprocal.

This is why I explained the Bloodwake example. The boat and the combat effects can affect the shape of the water, and these abberations in the water can affect the boat. It's a rough bidirectional interactivity, but it's bidirectional. In this demo, it's one-directional. Things around the water affect the GPU particles, but the GPU particles don't affect the things around them.

This isn't just a "the characters aren't animated for demo reasons" thing. It's the crux of the whole issue, and a big part of why GPU physics aren't used for a lot more than they are.
Click to expand...

The glass pane from the large back section falling shapes the water and is very different to the bullet hole version. The glass also slides and falls differently based on the various water flows. Isn't that bidirectional?

Sure in current gen that transference you seek was hindered in game engines or console SDK's but I don't see it as a major hardware or SDK issue next gen. Certainly physics, cloth, fluids and interactive objects etc are more complex but the software tools for the hardware have come a looking way in recent years.

It's been far easier to integrate such advances on PC hardware and I expect next gen consoles to have the same ease of programming use PC's have enjoyed since GPU and physics/APU's or orher hardware advances have arrived.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z said:
The glass pane from the large back section falling shapes the water and is very different to the bullet hole version. The glass also slides and falls differently based on the various water flows. Isn't that bidirectional?
Click to expand...
As I've noted, even if the water is forcing the little bits of glass around (and while there's some indication that this might be happening, the lack of motion on glass bits after they come to a stop is still making me hesitate), these are all things that can be offloaded to a GPU particle system. GPU particles that are members of connected GPU systems can interact with each other. Simply demonstrating that glass bits are affected by water bits doesn't bridge the gap, and that's why I'm generally not impressed by demos like these in terms of hoping for interesting game implementation.

There are plenty of GPU water physics demos on youtube just like this one. This one makes advances in quality of the internal interactions between the particles, but the quality there was never something that I've questioned.

Sure in current gen that transference you seek was hindered in game engines or console SDK's but I don't see it as a major hardware or SDK issue next gen. Certainly physics, cloth, fluids and interactive objects etc are more complex but the software tools for the hardware have come a looking way in recent years.

It's been far easier to integrate such advances on PC hardware and I expect next gen consoles to have the same ease of programming use PC's have enjoyed since GPU and physics/APU's or orher hardware advances have arrived.
Click to expand...
I don't think current-gen programmability is quite as limited as you think it is. Deferred shading in general is a testament to this, and at some level, advances in GPU physics actually have been implemented in PS360.
A good example would be Reach's particle system; all particle bounces are handled by the z-buffer and normal buffer on the GPU, which is why Reach is able to handle a huge number of particles with collision physics compared with Halo 3, and why Reach's particles do things like bounce realistically off of curves represented only in normal maps and not true geometry; all that information is there in the screen-space buffers, even though it would be a huge pain to figure it out through classical means. But that whole method of using the Xenos GPU didn't exist when the hardware was being designed.

The difficulty in communication between parts of a computing system isn't an "SDK issue." It's an issue in the location and format of the data. When you've got a gigantic texture or something filled with particle data for a GPU physics simulation, how is a CPU going read in and use that data efficiently? It's a huge block of information designed around being used by a very specific set of operations for a very specific type of processor. A general-purpose processor won't have an easy time taking it in and applying it to other things.

All I'm saying is, this demo is a lot like things I've been seeing for a long time that still haven't figured out the coupling issues. My interest will be piqued when I see a realistic GPU water simulation whose crashing waves can surprise an in-game NPC by sweeping him off his feet. Or interact correctly with a player-controlled boat. Or realistically rock a warthog being driven across a rough river. And stuff like that. As is, PhysX-style systems haven't ever really entered into the realm of gameplay physics, due to coupling problems. Hence why these systems are always niche and sent off to tackle certain specific non-interfering things. And this demo doesn't seem to solve those problems.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
HTupolev said:
As I've noted, even if the water is forcing the bits of glass around (and while there's some indication that this might be happening, the lack of motion on glass bits after they come to a stop is still making me hesitate), these are all things that can be offloaded to a GPU particle system. GPU particles that are members of the same system can interact with each other. Simply demonstrating that glass bits are affected by water bits doesn't bridge the gap, and that's why I'm generally not impressed by demos like these in terms of hoping for interesting game implementation.

There are plenty of GPU water physics demos on youtube just like this one. This one makes advances in quality of the internal interactions in the particles, but the quality there was never something that I've questioned.

I don't think current-gen programmability is as limited as you think it is. Deferred shading in general is a testament to this, and at some level, advances in GPU physics actually have been implemented in PS360.
A good example would be Reach's particle system; all particle bounces are handled by the z-buffer and normal buffer on the GPU, which is why Reach is able to handle a huge number of particles with collision physics compared with Halo 3, and why Reach's particles do things like bounce realistically off of curves represented only in normal maps and not true geometry; all that information is there in the screen-space buffers, even though it would be a huge pain to figure it out through classical means. But that whole method of using the Xenos GPU didn't exist when the hardware was being designed.

The difficulty in communication between parts of a computing system isn't an "SDK issue." It's an issue in the location and format of the data. When you've got a gigantic texture filled with particle data for a GPU physics simulation, how is a CPU going read in and use that data efficiently? It's a huge block of information designed around being used by a very specific set of operations for a very specific type of processor. A general-purpose processor won't have an easy time taking it in and applying it to other things.

All I'm saying is, this demo is a lot like things I've been seeing for a long time that still haven't figured out the coupling issues. My interest will be piqued when I see a realistic GPU water simulation whose crashing waves can surprise an in-game NPC by sweeping him off his feet. Or interact correctly with a player-controlled boat. And stuff like that. As is, PhysX-style systems haven't ever really entered into the realm of gameplay physics, due to coupling problems. Hence why these systems are always niche and sent off to tackle certain specific non-interfering things. And this demo doesn't seem to solve those problems.
Click to expand...

All solid points, thx for the detailed info and I agree with your points about direct relationships for physics in gameplay. My two additional comments to that are:

1. As you point out a lot of the hold ups are resources and bottlenecks so developers are constantly writing their own systems due constraints or for advancements in their development requirements. I think the current gen systems and SDK's are a major cause of such issues.

2. IMO the next gen console hardware and Xbox/SDK should largely take care of such challenges. Of course some developers prefer or will continue to develop in house or plugin advancements.

I guess I dream of a more unified environment or hardware solutions for these systems with far less restrictions, bottlenecks and ease of developer use.

After all when you look at MS compared to Sony they should be leveraging the following:

Operating systems PC
Direct X
Devices/mobiles
Working with tons of hardware/vendors
Web integration and backend systems

Xbox should be light years in front of Sony, sadly next gen possibly will be par for the course.
 
T

The Henery

Member
Never been a huge fan of doubles but Halo 4's pro version is probably my favourite rendition of the mode across the MM Halo games. If only it had the off screen hud indicators and death X's we'd become accustomed to...

On Halo 4 now and Infinity Slayer had 916 players in it. First time I've seen the top playlist at under a thousand. Yea I know it's early but I don't recall Reach's Team Slayer ever dipping below a thou and that had about 8 slayer playlists.
 
B

Blue Ninja

Member
New PC, installing the neccesary software atm. I'm getting a bit tired of Chrome still chugging up on .gifs, so I'm wondering if Firefox and/or Internet Explorer are still viable alternatives. I've heard a lot of good things about IE10, and so far it looks like it's working fine. Anyone got any more experience?
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
So, CMT is still hard at work on their Halo CE Campaign Update/Conversion SPV3 and Masters1337 has released another update vidoc about weapons.

CMT SPV3 Vidoc #3 The Plasma Pistol

Previous

CMT SPV3 Vidoc #1 The Pistol
CMT SPV3 Vidoc #2 The Battle Rifle

Halo 4 Ripping is coming along at a steady pace.
Tag Injection by Lord Zedd and friends is still in its early days but has some great potential.
H2MT have released a Beta of their H2 Campaign extension based on multiplayer maps with AI battle.

And in related news.

armor-reveal-03-png.687

7669156254_1d05a52d72_b.jpg
Click to expand...

VENERANCE

The "Halo Extended Fiction" Game built in CryEngine 3 is coming along (at a snails pace) but producing some interesting results.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LL0cKwcF4cQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_C64LuPl4wE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JAGBzYxV1ZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GV6TNfq76zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YBZxyCMxpXU
 
S

Speedy Blue Dude

Banned
Why are people supporting the UMG Halo 4 tournament or whatever.

The fanbase needs to stop. Let Halo 4 die a death (which pretty much already happened) it deserves. My craving for wanting Halo to make a comeback to the competitive scene is killed by my hatred of Halo 4.
 
U

User 73706

Banned
Speedy Blue Dude said:
Why are people supporting the UMG Halo 4 tournament or whatever.

The fanbase needs to stop. Let Halo 4 die a death (which pretty much already happened) it deserves. My craving for wanting Halo to make a comeback to the competitive scene is killed by my hatred of Halo 4.
Click to expand...

What the fuck kind of logic is that? One of Halo's strong suits among other shooters in this day and age is that it's got a core sandbox with the propensity for greatness (though ironically you have to strip more and more away to find it with each passing iteration) and a devout fanbase tempered enough to wait until it is stripped down to its bare essentials.

You're the douche in the chick flick that breaks up with the main mousy-looking girl by hooking up with someone else in the beginning and then realize the mistake you've made once she gets her makeover montage and turns bangable.
 
S

Speedy Blue Dude

Banned
Wahrer said:
What the fuck kind of logic is that? One of Halo's strong suits among other shooters in this day and age is that it's got a core sandbox with the propensity for greatness (though ironically you have to strip more and more away to find it with each passing iteration) and a devout fanbase tempered enough to wait until it is stripped down to its bare essentials.

You're the douche in the chick flick that breaks up with the main mousy-looking girl by hooking up with someone else in the beginning and then realize the mistake you've made once she gets her makeover montage and turns bangable.
Click to expand...
I personally think not supporting Halo 4 in the competitive scene at all would push 343 to actually make Halo 5 competitive more than what the fanbase is doing now.

What mindset does 343 have now? "Hey! We can make Halo 5 as casual as we want again! The Halo fanbase will buy it, because they love the franchise Bungie left us so much, and they'll buy it regardless. The competitive fanbase Bungie left us will just take whatever we give them and tune it to make it semi-playable, so they're good."

All we're doing is showing 343 how easily we'll bend over for them. We also bring up population and how players are unhappy with this game and how it's bad, but 343 doesn't care because they still sold and made money from those 3 million regardless of if they play or not. It's the same way now. 343 won't care if we aren't happy, we showes we'll accept whatever they give us (CSR, DLC, Game Itself, Fiesta, Competitive settings, Infinity, etc)

I just want Halo 5 to be good man. :( I want Halo 5 to play like Halo 2
and Halo 3
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
Speedy Blue Dude said:
I personally think not supporting Halo 4 in the competitive scene at all would push 343 to actually make Halo 5 competitive more than what the fanbase is doing now.

What mindset does 343 have now? "Hey! We can make Halo 5 as casual as we want again! The Halo fanbase will buy it, because they love the franchise Bungie left us so much, and they'll buy it regardless. The competitive fanbase Bungie left us will just take whatever we give them and tune it to make it semi-playable, so they're good."

All we're doing is showing 343 how easily we'll bend over for them. We also bring up population and how players are unhappy with this game and how it's bad, but 343 doesn't care because they still sold and made money from those 3 million regardless of if they play or not. It's the same way now. 343 won't care if we aren't happy, we showes we'll accept whatever they give us (CSR, DLC, Game Itself, Fiesta, Competitive settings, Infinity, etc)

I just want Halo 5 to be good man. :( I want Halo 5 to play like Halo 2
and Halo 3
Click to expand...
Plz leave.
 
S

squidhands

Member
Speedy Blue Dude said:
Why are people supporting the UMG Halo 4 tournament or whatever.

The fanbase needs to stop. Let Halo 4 die a death (which pretty much already happened) it deserves. My craving for wanting Halo to make a comeback to the competitive scene is killed by my hatred of Halo 4.
Click to expand...
You want the game to be better, but you don't want to support people and tournaments that can show how the game can be altered to play better. Flawless logic.


Stay in school.
 
C

Conor 419

Banned
Wahrer said:
What the fuck kind of logic is that? One of Halo's strong suits among other shooters in this day and age is that it's got a core sandbox with the propensity for greatness (though ironically you have to strip more and more away to find it with each passing iteration) and a devout fanbase tempered enough to wait until it is stripped down to its bare essentials.

You're the douche in the chick flick that breaks up with the main mousy-looking girl by hooking up with someone else in the beginning and then realize the mistake you've made once she gets her makeover montage and turns bangable.
Click to expand...

Words I can understand!
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Speedy Blue Dude said:
I personally think not supporting Halo 4 in the competitive scene at all would push 343 to actually make Halo 5 competitive more than what the fanbase is doing now.

What mindset does 343 have now? "Hey! We can make Halo 5 as casual as we want again! The Halo fanbase will buy it, because they love the franchise Bungie left us so much, and they'll buy it regardless. The competitive fanbase Bungie left us will just take whatever we give them and tune it to make it semi-playable, so they're good."

All we're doing is showing 343 how easily we'll bend over for them. We also bring up population and how players are unhappy with this game and how it's bad, but 343 doesn't care because they still sold and made money from those 3 million regardless of if they play or not. It's the same way now. 343 won't care if we aren't happy, we showes we'll accept whatever they give us (CSR, DLC, Game Itself, Fiesta, Competitive settings, Infinity, etc)

I just want Halo 5 to be good man. :( I want Halo 5 to play like Halo 2
and Halo 3
Click to expand...

But Halo 4 can work very well competitively. If no one played the game, would 343 bother updating it so that weapons can be tweaked on a per weapon basis? Would the likes of Bravo and Quinn been hired to support the community that doesn't exist? Would CSR have made it in to this game at all if it were not for the very passionate people that you know, actually want this game to succeed at least in their own minds?

Yeah, it's 2013, and the devs should be a little smarter in terms of the backend hooks they leave themselves to tweak glaring issues that arise upon launch. Let me ask you this. Do you think the lack of a beta influenced the mediocre feeling many people have with this game?
 
G

Gui_PT

Member
Hydranockz said:
Would CSR have made it in to this game at all if it were not for the very passionate people that you know, actually want this game to succeed at least in their own minds?
Click to expand...

I agree with the post but let's be honest here. CSR didn't really make it into the game.



:D
 
Z

Zeouterlimits

Member
Hydranockz said:
But Halo 4 can work very well competitively. If no one played the game, would 343 bother updating it so that weapons can be tweaked on a per weapon basis? Would the likes of Bravo and Quinn been hired to support the community that doesn't exist? Would CSR have made it in to this game at all if it were not for the very passionate people that you know, actually want this game to succeed at least in their own minds?

Yeah, it's 2013, and the devs should be a little smarter in terms of the backend hooks they leave themselves to tweak glaring issues that arise upon launch. Let me ask you this. Do you think the lack of a beta influenced the mediocre feeling many people have with this game?
Click to expand...
If you attribute lack of beta to them not having time to do it / an intense pressure to ship in Fall 2012?
Definitely partially.

I mean, I think there's a core difference in the multiplayer design philosophy that kneecaps my enjoyment of it, but they could have caught a lot of things and support a lot of my tastes with more time.
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Zeouterlimits said:
If you attribute lack of beta to them not having time to do it / an intense pressure to ship in Fall 2012?
Yes.
Click to expand...

Well for the reasons behind not having it, sure, but what it meant for the game itself. The lack of that extra testing cycle. Having to spot issues only at launch instead of prior. My point being, if no one 'pushed' for things to be done in Halo 4, things like CSR and stuff might hae only begin to be tried in Halo 5. At least now they can go into future games and say "We tried it without for 6 months and then we added CSR. Here is the data we gathered showing how players reacted and behaved to the ranking system".

Hoping that people just abandon the game so that Halo 5 will be better is just weird logic.
 
P

Poker Face

Member
gAg CruSh3r said:
A lot of people would like that but Halo has gone into a new direction.. Halo 5 will be good. I think 343i knows what to do this next Halo go around.
I hope..
Click to expand...

I'm sure it will be great by modern day FPS standards. More customization in loadouts, more redundant guns, a little more aim assist, vehicle ordnance drops in BTB, and more!

But I don't think it will be a good halo game, and that's okay because I'll have Destiny. I do wish 343 could offer me a game I would enjoy, as opposed to a game where I'm just kinda shoehorned in one playlist.
 
G

Gui_PT

Member
It'll probably be mostly like Halo 4 with more weapons, more AA's, one or two more unfortunately bad gametypes and one or two redundant features.

Halo 5 would be good if they got rid of all the crap that makes the game random and created maps focused on good gameplay instead of putting little newspapers flying around every 10 seconds.

They should just bring it back to the Halo 2/3 days with a more basic but good gameplay. Of course they won't do it though, all the casuals love making a RL drop from the sky, going invisible or flying around.
 
D

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
I'm pretty sure based on feedback from 4 that there will be some big changes in 5. Ranks for one.

They've listened to the community quite a bit since launch and I'd bet they will incorporate changes into 5 based on feedback. Will it make everyone happy? No, but it'll be more honed in and closer to classic Halo if I were to guess. I'd assume Infinity may stay, just not as a feature playlist.
 
B

Booties

Banned
Haven't played halo in a long ass time. Feels p. good, man.

A month to the day actually. First time I may have EVER done that since halo 2. GG 343.

TheOddOne said:
Drunk Booties <3
Click to expand...

Oh, when I'm drunk, you'll know. I do have a lot of day drinking planned for the day though. Time to celebrate.
 
O

Obscured

Member
Hydranockz said:
But Halo 4 can work very well competitively. If no one played the game, would 343 bother updating it so that weapons can be tweaked on a per weapon basis? Would the likes of Bravo and Quinn been hired to support the community that doesn't exist? Would CSR have made it in to this game at all if it were not for the very passionate people that you know, actually want this game to succeed at least in their own minds?

Yeah, it's 2013, and the devs should be a little smarter in terms of the backend hooks they leave themselves to tweak glaring issues that arise upon launch. Let me ask you this. Do you think the lack of a beta influenced the mediocre feeling many people have with this game?
Click to expand...

A few things.

First how many sales are directly MP versus SP and what is that ratio? Would Halo sell if it was just one or the other? Depending on your opinion, the population numbers are either really important or just another stat for Internet pissing contests. If you are the type who wants your franchise of choice to be top dog then it's one and done or the end of the world once it is overtaken. An ongoing strong and invested population seems like a no-brainer for brand awareness and a built-in market for your next product, but perhaps it is not that straight-forward.

I'm mostly interested in match quality and speed. So far I still get that. I recently started the Mass Effect multiplayer (totally different animal and you only need half of the total players of a typical Halo match) and I still find games pretty quickly at almost any time for specific settings I am looking for (though this could certainly change at higher levels) and it doesn't even track in the top 20.

I find it an interesting dichotomy that we would like hooks in the game to allow easy modification of all aspects of gameplay, but also claim a game's complete and absolute failure if it is not 'perfect' out of the gate. My personal opinion is I want a full and complete game (I do think the patch later mentity can result in a crutch if not managed correctly) with built-in customization options that provide those hooks, but also allow the dev further power to patch exploits and the like. I haven't played many customs of other games (mainly sticking to out of the box MP). Does COD, for example, have a lot of customization?

While some changes come from betas, they always seem more marketing to me, but I think perceptions would have been altered, while not much in reality.

Really, to broaden and retain your audience over a long duration, figure out how to make losing fun.
 
Z

Zeouterlimits

Member
Hydranockz said:
Hoping that people just abandon the game so that Halo 5 will be better is just weird logic.
Click to expand...
Of course, but the burning was strong if you're looking for a certain style of Halo.
And these half measures (csr, throwdown etc), while good, are still just half measures/half implemented.
And I can understand (if not fully agree) that you don't want to miscommunicate satisfaction by rewarding the half steps in fear of suggesting that the half steps are good enough and they wouldn't need to go whole hog for Halo 5.

So I don't agree with the people saying that, but I can see why they might begin to think that.

On a more personal note I've no idea what 343 plan to do in future and while I admire people there, I don't think they understand/care to accommodate what I'm looking for.
 
M

Major Williams

Member
I am asking the morning HaloGAF crew - I'd love to get your feedback. I got some valuable feedback last night, but would love some more!

So I don't know if many of you know, but I build and paint models, specifically mecha. I have been commissioned to re-paint the 12 inch Halo 4 Master Chief figure. My client wants custom fatiguing and I would like to ask for GAF's assistance and opinion. I have been told to do whatever I want with it, so long as it isn't a 'stock' paint job - he wants weathering and the whole bit.

Here is the figure:

ba60e7b5-b684-400d-ba6a-6a6bcc9752cd_zps55d6dcf9.jpg


Here is some inspiration:

CB26641C-91C5-4BD8-B6AF-2E4285D8F6DD-4366-0000053E87257493_zpsae495aa3.jpg


5F2C5E9F-7FFF-4C7C-A222-243D2971F90E-4366-0000054096D2BA50_zps8946c516.jpg


I am going to use the stripes (both white and subtle red ones) and make some custom decals, but how do you think I should go about the weathering progress? Any other pics floating around the internet with some cool looking Master Chief color scheme ideas?


He liked my military color scheme of this model (obviously I think he wants a bit more muted, but same attention to detail).

DSC_6701_zps82f53025.jpg


And he liked the weathering on this piece. I haven't decided if I want to do rust. I know rust isn't technically possible on the Chief's armor, but it would add a cool look that would be unique. Perhaps have some of the pieces have rust and others not? I am definitely doing some oil and dirt fading. What do you think? Metallic chipping or rusting?

DSC_3578.jpg


DSC_1840.jpg


Also, if anyone from 343/Square Enix is looking, I'd love to know how to take this darn thing apart so I can paint the appendages individually. It would help out so much!
 
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