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[wwm0nkey]

Halo 4 can't come soon enough. It will be one week of glorious campaign talk and then a few months of "OMG best MP ever" and then it will come back to this again and the cycle will begin a new with Halo 5.

Though the 3 maps we have seen from Halo 4 actually look good where as we only got 1 good map in Reach (Powerhouse)

 

[L1NETT]

Spawn trapping?

This calls for a ranking system ;-)

Monkey, I think Haven and Longbow looks great, although Adrift looks like a dark mess.

 

[Stinkles]

Halo 4 can't come soon enough. It will be one week of glorious campaign talk and then a few months of "OMG best MP ever" and then it will come back to this again and the cycle will begin a new with Halo 5.

Though the 3 maps we have seen from Halo 4 actually look good where as we only got 1 good map in Reach (elevator room in sword base)

Fixed.

 

[Overdoziz]

edit: Please overdoz change that fucking avatar or I'm quitting HaloGAF forever lol

Changed it just for you.

 

[heckfu]

Why do you think people dislike cheating? If cheating caused joy and wonder, it would probably be called hugging.

I could've sworn you had him on ignore...

Changed it just for you.

seriously, laughing again. you're on your A-game lately.

 

[Hydranockz]

Like Suarez in the 2010 World Cup? Ghana then got a penalty, which gives them to get the goal they may or may not have got should the handball not have occurred.

Spoiler

They missed the penalty. Suarez wins.

Exactly. Suarez was exploiting rules. It doesn't stop it being any less of a shitty thing to do. He reduced what would have been 100% chance of scoring a goal essntially down to 50%. Is that just a greater knowledge of the rules or a shitty display of sportsmanship? That is where the divide here les too.

Sorry if that anlogy made Over cry.

 

[CyReN]

Changed it just for you.

Can't tell if it's his brother or just flipped it..

 

[Trey]

The semantic difference between cheating and bad sportsmanship is going to contort this discussion. To me, they are two halves of the same coin. I can see people disagreeing, and even in a real sport of a new exploit emerged, it would be up to the governing body to decide if it was cheating or not. The MLG for example, prohibits certain types of exploitative behavior and even edits the potential for it out of rule sets.

The issue with Reach or any other game, of course, is that in some ways it's just a field with a ball on it, and those behaviors are by definition, emergent. Camping is absolutely considered cheating by some, and is worse in some games than others. In halo, it's not an effective strategy in most cases - but victims tend to want the campers to play Ina. Different way. So in some ways cheating is going to be subjective. I get that.

Cheating is breaking the rules of the game in a way that provides a clear advantage to the rule-breaking party relative to their rule-abiding competition. Things like hiding with the lead or camping aren't cheating just because they don't fit your mind's ruleset.

 

[Tashi]

The semantic difference between cheating and bad sportsmanship is going to contort this discussion. To me, they are two halves of the same coin. I can see people disagreeing, and even in a real sport of a new exploit emerged, it would be up to the governing body to decide if it was cheating or not. The MLG for example, prohibits certain types of exploitative behavior and even edits the potential for it out of rule sets.

The issue with Reach or any other game, of course, is that in some ways it's just a field with a ball on it, and those behaviors are by definition, emergent. Camping is absolutely considered cheating by some, and is worse in some games than others. In halo, it's not an effective strategy in most cases - but victims tend to want the campers to play Ina. Different way. So in some ways cheating is going to be subjective. I get that.

In Basketball players do when they can get away with. Holding a guys jersey while chasing him through screens, throwing elbows here and there. It's just the way it is. Shit happens in every sport. "Cop didn't see it, I didn't do it" This case though is just that the map is so broken. You don't even have to do anything and you have a perfect spawn trap that you can act on. It's insane. It's like when you were kids and you made a game for you and your friends to play. And while playing it someone noticed that it's broken and they kept exploiting it to win. All the other kids would say, "that's not fair!" "This game is stupid!!!" That's Zealot CTF in this case.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Fixed.

People still go up there man, they know whats going to happen to them but they always think "maybe it will be different this time" which makes me think all my team members are Charlie Brown.

 

[Poker Face]

Cheating is breaking the rules of the game in a way that provides a clear advantage to the rule-breaking party relative to their rule-abiding competition. Things like hiding with the lead or camping aren't cheating just because they don't fit your mind's ruleset.

Exactly. Cheating in my mind has always been using some out of game resource to help you win ie standbying, hostbooting, modding, bridging connection, etc all forms of cheating.

Calling spawn trapping cheating is like calling weapon timing cheating.

 

[FyreWulff]

Spawn trapping?

This calls for a ranking system ;-)

Monkey, I think Haven and Longbow looks great, although Adrift looks like a dark mess.

They honestly should just add Megalo detection for this. I can think of at least two easy formulas to detect an unescapable spawn trap and end the game early.

 

[Overdoziz]

Exactly. Suarez was exploiting rules. It doesn't stop it being any less of a shitty thing to do. He reduced what would have been 100% chance of scoring a goal essntially down to 50%. Is that just a greater knowledge of the rules or a shitty display of sportsmanship? That is where the divide here les too.

Sorry if that anlogy made Over cry.

 

[Louis Wu]

That's why I say sportsmanship in that analogy. And there are no refs. Don't get me wrong, if something is easy to exploit, that is primarily on us to fix. THAT IS OUR FAULT. This example IS easy to exploit. But that doesn't eliminate player agency. There is still a responsibility for players to be good sports. We can't enforce that, nor should we outside of trying to make the game and rules as watertight as possible, but there is nothing forcing players to exploit this stuff, that is player choice and player agency. Unless we are saying nowadays, NO THAT IS WRONG THERE IS NO RESPONSIBILITY, NEED OR BENEFIT TO BE A GOOD SPORT.

In that B.net thread I linked to, there are a number of people who say that spawnkilling is the most fun they have playing Halo, and that they paid the same $60 everyone else paid for the game, so they should be entitled to having their fun, their way, as long as it's not cheating.

I suppose I have trouble arguing with that. (The whole 'good sportsmanship' thing is requiring that everyone have the same sense of honor and fair play - it's not something I'm comfortable with. I'd LIKE it - but I don't really have any more right asking them to play MY way than accepting that I have to play THEIR way and like it.)

The part I still can't get my head around is the fact that they LIKE doing this. It really seems dull.

 

[Tashi]

They honestly should just add Megalo detection for this. I can think of at least two easy formulas to detect an unescapable spawn trap and end the game early.

You change your avatar right now! There cannot be 2 of us with Bungie Aerospace shirts on. It's just too fuckin nerdy! lol

 

[Gray Man]

No, I don't think preventing an oblivious, low skilled team from playing is cheating, I see one team losing and one team winning, which is the entire point of nearly all competitive video games. The onus lies with Trueskill and matchmaking for pairing uneven teams up.



ding ding ding

Isn't the purpose of this Trueskill system you and others hold so near and dear to match two teams and make the game as close as possible? If you really believe in the Trueskill system the way it is supposed to work than you would be against spawn trapping right? Spawn trapping would imply the teams are not even to an extent, and trueskill isn't doing its job. Wouldn't you be upset about THAT not working? Or would your rather not have trueskill?

 

[IHaveIce]

Changed it just for you.

:lol oh snap.

Frankie made a good point that cheating is kind of subjective with the camping argument.
But like Tashi and some others already said, here it is just exploiting really really bad and broken spawns.

Frankie admitted it's their fault to fix something like this and I think everyone of us can agree that there will always be players that will exploit the shit out of everything.

one of the best ways to test a game is to play like a dick, because many in normal/casual matchmaking will play like this.

But with good spawns and a better skill system I don't think this could happen but also I wouldn't do that because I don't play objective to rack up a pile of kills.

I would like to hear some of your opinions on a system that would be a kind of spawn protection. Some modes in Counter Strike have it, you can't hurt a player direct after spawn or something like this. Would you want something like this in Halo?

 

[Caja 117]

Hahahahahaha, laughable.

How on Earth could it be considered cheating when the issue at hand is that the Heat are a legitimately BETTER team and outplayed them. They aren't using an exploit in basketball, strategy and ball control are things available to everyone. Not everyone (note: VERY FEW PEOPLE) knows about the spawn trap glitch in Reach or we'd see it all the time. Your analogy is full of fail, sir.

So, are you saying that the team that spawn trapped the other isn't legitimate better than the other? Sorry for this is FALSE, the fact that you get spawn trapped and cant get out of that spawn trap only shows your team been inferior to the other, I have played hundreds of game in team objective and never been spawn trapped without chance to escape to a more secure place in the map, just like there are different strategies for spawn trapping, there are also ways of getting out of it, but if You cant get out obviously the other team is way superior than yours.

What this really is is lack of sportsmanship, because they are stat padding and not playing to win, but don't give me the excuse that just because they have spawn trapped you and you are not good enough to get out, it should be consider cheating.

BTW, a Mistake because I missed one letter in one word in my quote doesn't invalidate in no way my opinion.

 

[Trey]

Calling spawn trapping cheating is like calling weapon timing cheating.

Now there is something to be said for banning tactics that overly centralize the meta to the point that you should only employ that particular element if you want to win. That makes the game shallow and boring. I could see an argument for spawn trapping being "cheating" if it was a simple matter to do and decided the game quickly at the exclusion of all the other elements of Halo. But seeing as reasonably matched teams don't have that happen to them, I doubt this is the case.

I'll have to agree with jelyk, this is a matter of a large skill discrepancy and nothing more.

Dat skill gap.

 

[kylej]

Isn't the purpose of this Trueskill system you and others hold so near and dear to match two teams and make the game as close as possible? If you really believe in the Trueskill system the way it is supposed to work than you would be against spawn trapping right? Spawn trapping would imply the teams are not even to an extent, and trueskill isn't doing its job.

Just because you have two teams of even skill doesn't mean one can't outplay the other. Most people understand this once they graduate the 4th grade.

No, but this double negative invalidates what you were trying to say.

Let's not hate on double negatives here. It's Sunday. I'm lazy.

 

[Tashi]

Isn't the purpose of this Trueskill system you and others hold so near and dear to match two teams and make the game as close as possible? If you really believe in the Trueskill system the way it is supposed to work than you would be against spawn trapping right? Spawn trapping would imply the teams are not even to an extent, and trueskill isn't doing its job. Wouldn't you be upset about THAT not working? Or would your rather not have trueskill?

From what I understand True Skill has the potential to do its job but matchmaking playlist restrictions are loose so Halo Reach is just like, "lol who cares just match them again whoever"

 

[heckfu]

So, are you saying that the team that spawn trapped the other isn't legitimate better than the other? Sorry for this is FALSE, the fact that you get spawn trapped and cant get out of that spawn trap only shows your team been inferior to the other, I have played hundreds of game in team objective and never been spawn trapped without chance to escape to a more secure place in the map, just like there are different strategies for spawn trapping, there are also ways of getting out of it, but if You cant get out, obviously the other team is way superior than yours.

What this really is is lack of sportsmanship, because they are stat padding and not playing to win, but don't give me the excuse that just because they have spawn trapped you and you are not good enough to get out, it should be consider cheating.

BTW, a Mistake because I missed one letter in one word in my quote doesn't invalidate in no way my opinion.

No, but this double negative invalidates what you were trying to say.

Regardless, no, getting spawn trapped doesn't show the other team is better. Clearly you've never done it or you'd realize just how easy it is to do with a team that can communicate. And clearly you've never done it because you'd understand how impossible it is for someone to escape the trap.

 

[Gray Man]

Hahahahahaha, laughable.

How on Earth could it be considered cheating when the issue at hand is that the Heat are a legitimately BETTER team and outplayed them. They aren't using an exploit in basketball, strategy and ball control are things available to everyone. Not everyone (note: VERY FEW PEOPLE) knows about the spawn trap glitch in Reach or we'd see it all the time. Your analogy is full of fail, sir.

Also, when bolding a word for emphasis, please do me a favor and spell check it. It's funny how a simple typo can completely invalidate an argument in my head when I see it.

You know whats great about Halo? You can make awesome come backs, you can come from no where and get a sick overkill to change the tide of the match. Once you get spawntraped it doesn't matter how good you are. Chances are you aren't going to get out of it. Its not about who is good at that point, its about waiting for the other team to either leave the game to ACTUALLY play some Halo, or waiting for the team who is spawntrapping to mess up.

 

[Tashi]

You know whats great about Halo? You can make awesome come backs, you can come from no where and get a sick overkill to change the tide of the match. Once you get spawntraped it doesn't matter how good you are. Chances are you aren't going to get out of it. Its not about who is good at that point, its about waiting for the other team to either leave the game to ACTUALLY play some Halo, or waiting for the team who is spawntrapping to mess up.

I think you're generalizing too much.

 

[Striker]

It is if 343 doesn't want to spend the time to update it. An unfixed map in matchmaking is worse than just getting rid of it.

Why get rid of the entire map for Objectives? That screams Bungie/Backwash so hard.

On the spawns, it reminds me of The Pit's attic spawns. They're in place, but they really do not mold well in regular matches. A team playing Neutral Assault or Oddball can catch the ball or double jump on the teammates head to sit up there for the rest of the game. The other team has zero chance to kill them unless they get enough grenades to hit them or are able to clean out the other team entirely and take the time to double jump themselves. To put it simply, it's a terrible setup and why it got shipped that way is troubling. I would remove the flag away zone and just have it set so players that have their flag away just spawn on their side of the map like normal.

 

[too much eslim]

In Halo 4 is it possible to have maps that regulate the AA? I would love to have a midship and Lockout type map in terms of size. You can just take off PV, Jet packs and any other AA that will mess up the flow of the game on that map.

 

[Gray Man]

Just because you have two teams of even skill doesn't mean one can't outplay the other. Most people understand this once they graduate the 4th grade.

You know what else I learned BEFORE the 4th grade? Games aren't fun when people cheat and use exploitations. I like to have competition when I play a game, and that means not spawn trapping them.

From what I understand True Skill has the potential to do its job but matchmaking playlist restrictions are loose so Halo Reach is just like, "lol who cares just match them again whoever"

Yeah I know this, big time. Its a bummer it wasn't more like Halo 3 in this regard.

 

[Overdoziz]

Just fix the exploit that is fixable in a minute instead of relying on sportsmanship.

 

[kylej]

You know what else I learned BEFORE the 4th grade? Games aren't fun when people cheat and use exploitations. I like to have competition when I play a game, and that means not spawn trapping them.

Yeah but they make it more fun for me, so I guess it's even.

 

[Poker Face]

Now there is something to be said for banning tactics that overly centralize the meta to the point that you should only employ that particular element if you want to win. That makes the game shallow and boring. I could see an argument for spawn trapping being "cheating" if it was a simple matter to do and decided the game quickly at the exclusion of all the other elements of Halo. But seeing as reasonably matched teams don't have that happened to them, I doubt this is the case.

I'll have to agree with jelyk, this is a matter of a large skill discrepancy and nothing more.

Dat skill gap.

But is it necessary to enforce things like punishing people for spawn trapping? I can't see how it's cheating when compared to something like host booting.

It's just being an asshat in my eyes, especially when one team is light years in front of another team skill-wise.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Spawn trapping in any game is fucking garbage whoever says other wise just sucks. Most games don't give you a 1 second no-fire invincibility (for some reason devs do it based on movement not combat) so when you and your team are spawning at different times in the same location being shot by a lot of people you will NOT escape, you will NOT comeback and it is NOT FUN OR FAIR.

In Battlefield 3 I am fine with being spawn killed when I spawn on a friend because that is my fault and it is a risky spawn and I had a choice in the matter. In the Zealot case I have no choice and can not do anything.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

In Halo 4 is it possible to have maps that regulate the AA? I would love to have a midship and Lockout type map in terms of size. You can just take off PV, Jet packs and any other AA that will mess up the flow of the game on that map.

Then you'd have people that can't use some of their loadouts because the AA they selected with it isn't allowed on that map. Don't think that's going to happen.

 

[Hypertrooper]

These Spawn killing talks remind me of a match I had with Tawpgun. We played TO on Asylum and got spawnkilled pretty fast. It is not like that they were any sort of good(If we had a 1vs1, they always lose). But the problem was that they killed us directly few seconds after spawn. we literally had no opportunity to get out of this scenario. It was a doom lap. And no. I do not think that Tawpgun and I are noobs. It was just unfair for us.


On the other hand: I AM GOING TO SEE NASUM THIS FRIDAY! OMG! FREAKING YES! I AM SO EXCITED!

 

[Trey]

But is it necessary to enforce things like punishing people for spawn trapping? I can't see how it's cheating when compared to something like host booting.

It's just being an asshat in my eyes, especially when one team is light years in front of another team skill-wise.

I wouldn't punish people for spawn-trapping. I don't consider it cheating. Just gave a scenario where I could see it being banned. That scenario happens to not be the case.

A team that's good enough to impose their will completely on their opponent deserves to do so. Whether they do or don't is up to them.

Spawn trapping in any game is fucking garbage whoever says other wise just sucks. Most games don't give you a 1 second no-fire invincibility (for some reason devs do it based on movement not combat) so when you and your team are spawning at different times in the same location being shot by a lot of people you will NOT escape, you will NOT comeback and it is NOT FUN OR FAIR.

In Battlefield 3 I am fine with being spawn killed when I spawn on a friend because that is my fault and it is a risky spawn and I had a choice in the matter. In the Zealot case I have no choice and can not do anything.

Play invasion.

 

[Caja 117]

No, but this double negative invalidates what you were trying to say.

Regardless, no, getting spawn trapped doesn't show the other team is better. Clearly you've never done it or you'd realize just how easy it is to do with a team that can communicate. And clearly you've never done it because you'd understand how impossible it is for someone to escape the trap.

Clearly you haven't played with high level players then if you are discarding the possibility of breaking a spawn trap.

Also this issue seems to be specific of team objective and not MLG Zealot, while i Have played hundreds of team objective, I have played more than a thousand games on MLG and I havent been spawn trapped without chance of escaping.

 

[Poker Face]

Then you'd have people that can't use some of their loadouts because the AA they selected with it isn't allowed on that map. Don't think that's going to happen.

Yea, everything we see day 1 will most likely be there for the life-span of the game. I would imagine if something needs to be fixed 343 will fix it, but I don't think they will remove certain AAs and perks from matchmaking.

 

[PNut]

Trey, hiredn00bs, pnut... What's up bros? Do we have a scheduled tourney?

I'm available after 8pm est any day except fri sat.

Yeah I'm available those same times as well. In fact I believe our whole team is east coasters.

 

[Gray Man]

I think you're generalizing too much.

I don't think I am, I think it really comes down to certain people here. From what I've observed from lurking, some people here aren't' interested in a "fair" or "competitive" match. They only want to win in the easiest way possible, and even when they get a win in say, Team Objective. They hold onto that flag for a couple extra minutes so they just do their best to farm kills, get more points, and turn it into a temporary match of team slayer.

To mean the "real sport: equivalent would be if a basketball team was winning, by a lot with say... 30 seconds left, they start being showboats doing their best to embarrass other players with their fancy moves.

It suddenly becomes less about playing a competitive game, and being unsportsmanlike, and an asshole really.

 

[too much eslim]

Then you'd have people that can't use some of their loadouts because the AA they selected with it isn't allowed on that map. Don't think that's going to happen.

So I can't have a midship or Lockout size map again? Dang it small maps were always the most fun in Halo for me.

Also 300th post party time.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Yea, everything we see day 1 will most likely be there for the life-span of the game. I would imagine if something needs to be fixed 343 will fix it, but I don't think they will remove certain AAs and perks from matchmaking.

Of course, in gametypes like SWAT or Snipers, you'd have only one or two loadouts you could choose from and maybe some AA's are campaign only.

So I can't have a midship or Lockout size map again? Dang it small maps were always the most fun in Halo for me.

Also 300th post party time.

You could have small maps but you'll probably have to deal with all the AA's and perks.

 

[Overdoziz]

These Spawn killing talks remind me of a match I had with Tawpgun. We played TO on Asylum and got spawnkilled pretty fast. It is not like that they were any sort of good(If we had a 1vs1, they always lose). But the problem was that they killed us directly few seconds after spawn. we literally had no opportunity to get out of this scenario. It was a doom lap. And no. I do not think that Tawpgun and I are noobs. It was just unfair for us.

The other team was clearly better as a team then if they managed to kill you off-spawn.

 

[BigShow36]

The semantic difference between cheating and bad sportsmanship is going to contort this discussion. To me, they are two halves of the same coin. I can see people disagreeing, and even in a real sport of a new exploit emerged, it would be up to the governing body to decide if it was cheating or not. The MLG for example, prohibits certain types of exploitative behavior and even edits the potential for it out of rule sets.

The issue with Reach or any other game, of course, is that in some ways it's just a field with a ball on it, and those behaviors are by definition, emergent. Camping is absolutely considered cheating by some, and is worse in some games than others. In halo, it's not an effective strategy in most cases - but victims tend to want the campers to play Ina. Different way. So in some ways cheating is going to be subjective. I get that.

Where do you draw the line? In my opinion, the sprint+double beatdown is a broken system. The massive aim assist is a broken system. Armor lock is a broken system. People "exploit" those all the time, but that doesn't mean they are cheating. Would I like to see them removed or altered? Absolutely, but that onus is on the developer, not the players. The players are free to use whatever system is in place, and you can't call it cheating if its not prohibited by the game.

 

[FyreWulff]

So I can't have a midship or Lockout size map again? Dang it small maps were always the most fun in Halo for me.

Also 300th post party time.

The modern needs and spawning engine of Halo works much better with bigger spacious maps. Warlock-sized maps don't work anymore. And we saw the problems it had with Blackout, where the spawn engine was so constrained it practically felt like it was rolling dice.

 

[IHaveIce]

Just fix the exploit that is fixable in a minute instead of relying on sportsmanship.

we have a winner

 

[Rand0m TAG]

I don't think I am, I think it really comes down to certain people here. From what I've observed from lurking, some people here aren't' interested in a "fair" or "competitive" match. They only want to win in the easiest way possible, and even when they get a win in say, Team Objective. They hold onto that flag for a couple extra minutes so they just do their best to farm kills, get more points, and turn it into a temporary match of team slayer.

To mean the "real sport: equivalent would be if a basketball team was winning, by a lot with say... 30 seconds left, they start being showboats doing their best to embarrass other players with their fancy moves.

It suddenly becomes less about playing a competitive game, and being unsportsmanlike, and an asshole really.

The gloves have been dropped.

 

[too much eslim]

Yea, everything we see day 1 will most likely be there for the life-span of the game. I would imagine if something needs to be fixed 343 will fix it, but I don't think they will remove certain AAs and perks from matchmaking.

The maps have to be built around the AA instead of just being competitive and fun. Small maps is where Halo shines its best. It can't do that with bigger maps. Someone was saying the maps we saw in Halo4 are the small maps which is not good imo.

 

[Gray Man]

The gloves have been dropped.

I will say none of this applies, or applies much less if its a game between good friends, like a friendly game at the park.

 

[Stinkles]

Where do you draw the line? In my opinion, the sprint+double beatdown is a broken system. The massive aim assist is a broken system. Armor lock is a broken system. People "exploit" those all the time, but that doesn't mean they are cheating. Would I like to see them removed or altered? Absolutely, but that onus is on the developer, not the players. The players are free to use whatever system is in place, and you can't call it cheating if its not prohibited by the game.

you're right - its hard to draw the line "legally" but ethically? Subjective and difficult.

 

[too much eslim]

The modern needs and spawning engine of Halo works much better with bigger spacious maps. Warlock-sized maps don't work anymore. And we saw the problems it had with Blackout, where the spawn engine was so constrained it practically felt like it was rolling dice.

Bungie just messed up that map.

 

[IHaveIce]

Frankie made a good point that cheating is kind of subjective with the camping argument.
But like Tashi and some others already said, here it is just exploiting really really bad and broken spawns.

Frankie admitted it's their fault to fix something like this and I think everyone of us can agree that there will always be players that will exploit the shit out of everything.

one of the best ways to test a game is to play like a dick, because many in normal/casual matchmaking will play like this.

But with good spawns and a better skill system I don't think this could happen but also I wouldn't do that because I don't play objective to rack up a pile of kills.

I would like to hear some of your opinions on a system that would be a kind of spawn protection. Some modes in Counter Strike have it, you can't hurt a player direct after spawn or something like this. Would you want something like this in Halo?

no one wants to say something about this?
Especially the last part?