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[IHaveIce]

An employee of 343 coming here and complaining about spawns on a map instead of actually fixing them really helps cement my expectations for Halo 4 matchmaking. I guess that's good.

Anyway we do that every time we play Zealot. I think Risen got a killing frenzy with the flag doing that the other night, it was hilarious. I always find it strange when people have these grandiose ideas of what's morally right and wrong in a game that revolves around shooting other people in the face until they scream and collapse on the ground. There's a way to stop this stuff from happening without even changing the spawn locations too; it's called proper matchmaking. The only way you can pull goofy shit like that off is if the other team is terrible, if even teams were paired up against each other you would never have a chance to spawn trap like that.

I don't see it as being any different than Zorabotic's MLG wizardy which I happen to think is pretty amazing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnWKA0ePVw&t=0m47s

Is Plywood's team playing today? They're gonna run train. One of my teammates apparently is dropping out and I think the other can only play for like 1 night out of the 10 available so me and Booties are gonna need some replacements I think.

I have to agree with the most of what you say and the video is really impressive, but the situation on Zealot is in an Objective Gametype and here you are forcing them to spawn there and just killing them over and over.

But yes, a decent team wouldn't fall for this trap I think

 

[Rand0m TAG]

An employee of 343 coming here and complaining about spawns on a map instead of actually fixing them really helps cement my expectations for Halo 4 matchmaking. I guess that's good.

Anyway we do that every time we play Zealot. I think Risen got a killing frenzy with the flag doing that the other night, it was hilarious. I always find it strange when people have these grandiose ideas of what's morally right and wrong in a game that revolves around shooting other people in the face until they scream and collapse on the ground. There's a way to stop this stuff from happening without even changing the spawn locations too; it's called proper matchmaking. The only way you can pull goofy shit like that off is if the other team is terrible, if even teams were paired up against each other you would never have a chance to spawn trap like that.

I don't see it as being any different than Zorabotic's MLG wizardy which I happen to think is pretty amazing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evnWKA0ePVw&t=0m47s

Is Plywood's team playing today? They're gonna run train. One of my teammates apparently is dropping out and I think the other can only play for like 1 night out of the 10 available so me and Booties are gonna need some replacements I think.

Plywoods gonna get goosed

 

[Coux]

There's a difference between knowing where a team will spawn from and handling it versus NOT GIVING THEM A CHANCE TO EVEN PLAY. Nobody is having fun spawning and dying a second later. The only purpose the game is serving at that point is to pad the other team's stats.

My comment was directed towards loadouts and abilities, not tactics like spawn trapping.

 

[Overdoziz]

Well, I spend about a minute in Forge on Zealot and removed the Flag-Away spawnzones.
Where's my paycheck, 343?

 

[FyreWulff]

My comment was directed towards loadouts and abilities, not tactics like spawn trapping.

Distraction chicken

 

[CyReN]

Is Plywood's team playing today? They're gonna run train. One of my teammates apparently is dropping out and I think the other can only play for like 1 night out of the 10 available so me and Booties are gonna need some replacements I think.

11pm est.

As for competitive (basically mlg) people with spawns, it's to control spawns for objective mostly, if you are just sitting there up in objective purposely doing it and not capping/getting hill time/etc I could see it as being douchey.

 

[Coux]

Distraction chicken

Bwahahaha... effective tactic is effective. I now feel compelled to gripe about it.

 

[heckfu]

Well, I spend about a minute in Forge on Zealot and removed the Flag-Away spawnzones.
Where's my paycheck, 343?

I can't take you seriously with that avatar. I'm too busy laughing!

 

[Overdoziz]

I can't take you seriously with that avatar. I'm too busy laughing!

Right back at ya

 

[Stinkles]

Hey Kyle, I don't place spawns, and I am not a designer. And you don't think that preventing an oblivious, low skilled team from playing is cheating. Ok. How do I then take all your other design feedback seriously?

Now, if two teams know how to do it and compete to do it, this not cheating, but thats not what we are talking about.

 

[Poker Face]

1-50 would help deal with these problems tremendously.

 

[kylej]

I have to agree with the most of what you say and the video is really impressive, but the situation on Zealot is in an Objective Gametype and here you are forcing them to spawn there and just killing them over and over.

Then let them quit out. I mean, did I miss the signing of a Halo Geneva Conventions act that details how long you have to let an enemy live upon spawning? Should they run around for 20 seconds before they get melted? They're going to lose and get killed a bunch either way, blame matchmaking and shitty playlist control rather than the 17 people still playing Team Objective who are desperately trying to have fun.

Plywoods gonna get goosed

Xeno gonna hulk out and rip dicks off kids.

 

[heckfu]

Right back at ya

Touche...touche, indeed...

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Right back at ya

Oh snap.

 

[IHaveIce]

Then let them quit out. I mean, did I miss the signing of a Halo Geneva Conventions act that details how long you have to let an enemy live upon spawning? Should they run around for 20 seconds before they get melted? They're going to lose and get killed a bunch either way, blame matchmaking and shitty playlist control rather than the 17 people still playing Team Objective who are desperately trying to have fun.

Yes here we are on one opinion.

 

[FyreWulff]

Which is borderline shameful. All it takes is an extra Flag Away zone. It is so odd to me that the same folks who mysteriously removed Hologram from Objective gametypes (Bungie) because of a possible exploit would drag their feet so hard on fixing situations like Zealot and Prisoner (which, to be fair, was fixed--was that the same fix you were working on?). At least now we have confirmation that they even know there's a problem with it.

I expect the internet to be full of jerks who try to do this every chance they get. I expected more from Bungie, especially, than them ignoring the issue entirely.

Prisoner fix was done by 343. I imagine just-spawn-change maps got discarded for the same reason updated Megalo variants were.. the ol' "limited bandwidth".

I've always been of the opinion that there should have been a specific position at Bungie (and now 343) called the Legacy Support Team where it's like 2 guys hired to support and bugfix previous Halo games. While the updates would be slower due to the small team, at least they'd come out.

 

[heckfu]

Then let them quit out. I mean, did I miss the signing of a Halo Geneva Conventions act that details how long you have to let an enemy live upon spawning? Should they run around for 20 seconds before they get melted? They're going to lose and get killed a bunch either way, blame matchmaking and shitty playlist control rather than the 17 people still playing Team Objective who are desperately trying to have fun.



Xeno gonna hulk out and rip dicks off kids.

UGHHHH BUT WE COMPLAIN ABOUT QUITTERS.

 

[Tashi]

It's also intention. Their intention was clearly to just rack up the kills. If the flag runner actually runs the flag he puts his team 3v4 and then the other has a chance to break out of the spawn trap. It did however look like some weren't even playing. What a shit show.

edit: You can only spawn in 1 place if your flag is away? Is that right?

 

[OverHeat]

Prisoner fix was done by 343. I imagine just-spawn-change maps got discarded for the same reason updated Megalo variants were.. the ol' "limited bandwidth".

I've always been of the opinion that there should have been a specific position at Bungie (and now 343) called the Legacy Support Team where it's like 2 guys hired to support and bugfix previous Halo games. While the updates would be slower due to the small team, at least they'd come out.

Good idea but are your sure someone is not already filling out that role at 343?

 

[FyreWulff]

Good idea but are your sure someone is not already filling out that role at 343?

If 343 supports Reach after Halo 4 comes out, which I extremely doubt at the moment, it would be the first EVER Halo game to receive updates after the next Halo game came out.

 

[Overdoziz]

edit: You can only spawn in 1 place if your flag is away? Is that right?

Yep. Only the bottom area of your base on Zealot. There's like 5 spawns there on which you can spawn. 3 in the main area and 2 in the small hallway next to it.

 

[Stinkles]

It's also intention. Their intention was clearly to just rack up the kills. If the flag runner actually runs the flag he puts his team 3v4 and then the other has a chance to break out of the spawn trap. It did however look like some weren't even playing. What a shit show.

Again, I have zero problem with knowing participants doing this, it's a show of skill and competition on an even playing field. In some ways it's like an even more coordinated version of Warthog jumping. In the right context, it's awesome. But I think it's a really weird aspect of this generation that anything that is physically possible in a game is somehow not cheating simply because it's possible. You can pick up a ball in soccer and run it into the net. That's possible. And if the other team is ok with that, then it's not even cheating. But possibility does not and should not preclude good sportsmanship. The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

 

[Tashi]

Yep. Only the bottom area of your base on Zealot. There's like 5 spawns there on which you can spawn. 3 in the main area and 2 in the small hallway next to it.

Ok then I'm sorry that's not cheating. It's just exploiting a broken ass spawn setup on that specific map. Wow, I actually can't believe that.

 

[IHaveIce]

Yep. Only the bottom area of your base on Zealot. There's like 5 spawns there on which you can spawn. 3 in the main area and 2 in the small hallway next to it.

Ok this is just pure stupidity

 

[Blue Ninja]

Oh my.

 

[Trey]

Trey, hiredn00bs, pnut... What's up bros? Do we have a scheduled tourney?

I'm available after 8pm est any day except fri sat.

I should be on later tonight.

 

[Louis Wu]

The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

Holy crap - Queen Victoria let people slurp her jujubees?

 

[Stinkles]

Holy crap - Queen Victoria let people slurp her jujubees?

She had no choice. She was being spawn trapped by the East India Trading company.

 

[kylej]

Hey Kyle, I don't place spawns, and I am not a designer. And you don't think that preventing an oblivious, low skilled team from playing is cheating. Ok. How do I then take all your other design feedback seriously?

No, I don't think preventing an oblivious, low skilled team from playing is cheating, I see one team losing and one team winning, which is the entire point of nearly all competitive video games. The onus lies with Trueskill and matchmaking for pairing uneven teams up.

Ok then I'm sorry that's not cheating. It's just exploiting a broken ass spawn setup on that specific map. Wow, I actually can't believe that.

ding ding ding

 

[heckfu]

Holy crap - Queen Victoria let people slurp her jujubees?

It was a dark time.

Also, I'm curious, Kyle, how you felt about superjumping in Halo 2. I feel like I always stood on the other side of the argument with folks were in matches on Ascension, etc, and those were used in gameplay.

edit: good god, how did I let that through with such terrible syntax. I feel like Stalker for fucks sake.

 

[CyReN]

I just googled jujubees..

 

[Arnie]

You can pick up a ball in soccer and run it into the net. That's possible. And if the other team is ok with that, then it's not even cheating. But possibility does not and should not preclude good sportsmanship. The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

Come on, that's a terrible analogy. Handball is against the rules in football, trapping someone's spawns isn't against the rules in Halo. In your analogy, you are, by association, FIFA. It's your job to define the rules.

 

[Overdoziz]

Again, I have zero problem with knowing participants doing this, it's a show of skill and competition on an even playing field. In some ways it's like an even more coordinated version of Warthog jumping. In the right context, it's awesome. But I think it's a really weird aspect of this generation that anything that is physically possible in a game is somehow not cheating simply because it's possible. You can pick up a ball in soccer and run it into the net. That's possible. And if the other team is ok with that, then it's not even cheating. But possibility does not and should not preclude good sportsmanship. The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

Not a big fan of the analogy.

 

[Caja 117]

Then let them quit out. I mean, did I miss the signing of a Halo Geneva Conventions act that details how long you have to let an enemy live upon spawning? Should they run around for 20 seconds before they get melted? They're going to lose and get killed a bunch either way, blame matchmaking and shitty playlist control rather than the 17 people still playing Team Objective who are desperately trying to have fun.

I agree, this cant be consider cheating, more because the fact that both team have equal opportunity to do this, if you consider this cheating you might as well consider cheating overusing amor abilities; such as Cammo, Armor lock and for Halo 4 PV.

You might as well consider cheating when the Miami Heat plays again a mediocre team an defeat them 120 to 65, just because they just had better strategy and had better ball control.

Cheating in sports and games like this is when one of the players brings an outside ilegal element to the game to give an edge over the other team or players such as Steroids, or for video game autoaim or lag switching.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

I just googled jujubees..

It looks glorious.

 

[Trey]

Again, I have zero problem with knowing participants doing this, it's a show of skill and competition on an even playing field. In some ways it's like an even more coordinated version of Warthog jumping. In the right context, it's awesome. But I think it's a really weird aspect of this generation that anything that is physically possible in a game is somehow not cheating simply because it's possible. You can pick up a ball in soccer and run it into the net. That's possible. And if the other team is ok with that, then it's not even cheating. But possibility does not and should not preclude good sportsmanship. The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

I don't necessarily have a horse in this race but this analogy doesn't quite cut it. In competitive soccer games, there are refs that provide a hard deterrent to rule breaking: a penalty is awarded on the spot for the other team's gain.

There is no hard penalty in Reach. There's the honor code, and then there is a possible post-game punishment which is left up to the discretion of the game managers. I'm not even sure what we're debating over is a bannable offense.

"Cheating" isn't rigidly defined with penalties in Halo, so there is more incentive/validation to do things like spawn trap. And the argument people are making that it's not glitching or exploiting bugs is made because those are usually the accepted universal line drawn for what is considered cheating in video games.

 

[Stinkles]

Come on, that's a terrible analogy. Handball is against the rules in football, trapping someone's spawns isn't against the rules in Halo. In your analogy, you are, by association, FIFA. It's your job to define the rules.

That's why I say sportsmanship in that analogy. And there are no refs. Don't get me wrong, if something is easy to exploit, that is primarily on us to fix. THAT IS OUR FAULT. This example IS easy to exploit. But that doesn't eliminate player agency. There is still a responsibility for players to be good sports. We can't enforce that, nor should we outside of trying to make the game and rules as watertight as possible, but there is nothing forcing players to exploit this stuff, that is player choice and player agency. Unless we are saying nowadays, NO THAT IS WRONG THERE IS NO RESPONSIBILITY, NEED OR BENEFIT TO BE A GOOD SPORT.

Is that the claim here? Because that's a different matter.

 

[heckfu]

I agree, this cant be consider cheating, more because the fact that both team have equal opportunity to do this, if you consider this cheating you might as well consider cheating overusing amor abilities; such as Cammo, Armor lock and for Halo 4 PV.

You might as well consider cheating when the Miami Heat plays again a mediocre team an defeat them 120 to 65, just because they just had better strategy and had better ball control.

Cheating in sports and games like this is when one of the players brings an outside ilegal element to the game to give an edge over the other team or players such as Steroids, or for video game autoaim or lag switching.

Hahahahahaha, laughable.

How on Earth could it be considered cheating when the issue at hand is that the Heat are a legitimately BETTER team and outplayed them. They aren't using an exploit in basketball, strategy and ball control are things available to everyone. Not everyone (note: VERY FEW PEOPLE) knows about the spawn trap glitch in Reach or we'd see it all the time. Your analogy is full of fail, sir.

Also, when bolding a word for emphasis, please do me a favor and spell check it. It's funny how a simple typo can completely invalidate an argument in my head when I see it.

 

[Hydranockz]

Come on, that's a terrible analogy. Handball is against the rules in football, trapping someone's spawns isn't against the rules in Halo. In your analogy, you are, by association, FIFA. It's your job to define the rules.

What about the analogy of the final of a Cup match? 3 minutes to go and it is 1-1 or 1-0. The losing team are about to score when a defender blatantly handballs. I don't mean anything accidental, I mean full on punching it well knowing what he has done. He gets sent off as is the punishment... but the punshment can't possibly be enough. The other team now cannot come back even though the game did what it could. This can just 'happen' even f it is a terrible thing to do. It's not 'cheating' but it is very very dickish and is a blatant disrespect of sportsmanship. I think this is possibly a closer analogy to what Zealot spawntrapping results in.... I dunno.

 

[Tashi]

Again, I have zero problem with knowing participants doing this, it's a show of skill and competition on an even playing field. In some ways it's like an even more coordinated version of Warthog jumping. In the right context, it's awesome. But I think it's a really weird aspect of this generation that anything that is physically possible in a game is somehow not cheating simply because it's possible. You can pick up a ball in soccer and run it into the net. That's possible. And if the other team is ok with that, then it's not even cheating. But possibility does not and should not preclude good sportsmanship. The new definition of good sportsmanship seems to be, 'stuff 18th century BKs did when they weren't slurping Queen Victoria's jujubees'

This specific case is not a show of skill and competition. It's just exploiting a broken system. It's like when Reach first came out and everyone camped in space on Zealot because there was no time limit up there. It's just broken. You can't knock anyone legitimately for doing it because it's their way of winning and doing anything to win (not something that I do. My Halo honor is through the roof) however, you can fix the map. Every Zealot map and gametype should just change to the MLG map and rules. Normal Zealot is a shitty map but MLG Zealot is one of the best in the game if not the best.

 

[Arnie]

That's why I say sportsmanship in that analogy. And there are no refs. Don't get me wrong, if something is easy to exploit, that is primarily on us to fix. THAT IS OUR FAULT. This example IS easy to exploit. But that doesn't eliminate player agency. There is still a responsibility for players to be good sports. We can't enforce that, nor should we outside of trying to make the game and rules as watertight as possible, but there is nothing forcing players to exploit this stuff, that is player choice and player agency. Unless we are saying nowadays, NO THAT IS WRONG THERE IS NO RESPONSIBILITY, NEED OR BENEFIT TO BE A GOOD SPORT.

Is that the claim here? Because that's a different matter.

If a game of football around the park devolved into players running around with the ball the game would be abandoned in an instant, referee or not.

I guess sportsmanship is harder to muster when the objective either focuses or incorporates bloody murder on your opponents. It's warfare, not sport, even if we think of it as the latter. The very context of the game pushes player agency in certain directions, and in a competitive game about killing I think the last thing on a serious player's mind is sportsmanship.

What about the analogy of the final of a Cup match? 3 minutes to go and it is 1-1 or 1-0. The losing team are about to score when a defender blatantly handballs. I don't mean anything accidental, I mean full on punching it well knowing what he has done. He gets sent off as is the punishment... but the punshment can't possibly be enough. The other team now cannot come back even though the game did what it could. This can just 'happen' even f it is a terrible thing to do. It's not 'cheating' but it is very very dickish and is a blatant disrespect of sportsmanship. I think this is possibly a closer analogy to what Zealot spawntrapping results in.... I dunno.

Like Suarez in the 2010 World Cup? Ghana then got a penalty, which gives them to get the goal they may or may not have got should the handball not have occurred.

Spoiler

They missed the penalty. Suarez wins.

 

[FyreWulff]

Ideally, for me:

In a Halo game. The other team should ALWAYS respawn under cover, out of anyone's reticule, and in a reasonably close proximity to the objective to make defending it feasible while still rewarding the other team for wiping their team out by giving them enough time to remove the objective from the area.

A lot of maps meet this criteria. Zealot does not. There are so few spawns on Zealot CTF that the engine isn't even given an option of safely spawning someone. It just puts them in the only spot it's allowed to because

a) someone though it'd be a good idea to have a Flag Away spawn on such a small map when Flag Away is pointless on small maps

b) Zealot's construction does not accomodate two-team sided objective because there's not enough room to spawn people out of sightlines on a team's half of the map.

The solution here would be to

option 1) remove the flag away zone on Zealot, and use the existing "this teams spawns on this half of the map, this team on the other"

option 2) stop trying to force the map to do Objective and remove sided spawn objectives from it in matchmaking.

This should apply to every map in matchmaking. Does it work correctly? If no, can you fix it? And if you cannot fix it or do not want to put in the time to fix it, delete the map + gametype combo from matchmaking. Simple as that.

 

[kylej]

That's why I say sportsmanship in that analogy. And there are no refs. Don't get me wrong, if something is easy to exploit, that is primarily on us to fix. THAT IS OUR FAULT. This example IS easy to exploit. But that doesn't eliminate player agency. There is still a responsibility for players to be good sports. We can't enforce that, nor should we outside of trying to make the game and rules as watertight as possible, but there is nothing forcing players to exploit this stuff, that is player choice and player agency. Unless we are saying nowadays, NO THAT IS WRONG THERE IS NO RESPONSIBILITY, NEED OR BENEFIT TO BE A GOOD SPORT.

Is that the claim here? Because that's a different matter.

Ok so now it's not cheating it's just people being mean?

 

[Overdoziz]

Real life analogies for video games are always terrible.

 

[Tashi]

Option 2 is not a solution. The map can work amazing in Objective gametypes.


edit: Please overdoz change that fucking avatar or I'm quitting HaloGAF forever lol

 

[FyreWulff]

Option 2 is not a solution. The map can work amazing in Objective gametypes.

It is if 343 doesn't want to spend the time to update it. An unfixed map in matchmaking is worse than just getting rid of it.

 

[Stinkles]

The semantic difference between cheating and bad sportsmanship is going to contort this discussion. To me, they are two halves of the same coin. I can see people disagreeing, and even in a real sport of a new exploit emerged, it would be up to the governing body to decide if it was cheating or not. The MLG for example, prohibits certain types of exploitative behavior and even edits the potential for it out of rule sets.

The issue with Reach or any other game, of course, is that in some ways it's just a field with a ball on it, and those behaviors are by definition, emergent. Camping is absolutely considered cheating by some, and is worse in some games than others. In halo, it's not an effective strategy in most cases - but victims tend to want the campers to play Ina. Different way. So in some ways cheating is going to be subjective. I get that.

 

[Tashi]

It is if 343 doesn't want to spend the time to update it. An unfixed map in matchmaking is worse than just getting rid of it.

Yea but you think it just doesn't work because of size and sightlines. Or did I read that wrong?

 

[Stinkles]

Ok so now it's not cheating it's just people being mean?

Why do you think people dislike cheating? If cheating caused joy and wonder, it would probably be called hugging.

 

[FyreWulff]

Yea but you think it just doesn't work because of size and sightlines. Or did I read that wrong?

I swear I put "either" there. Whoops. It's possible to make Zealot work. Until then, I'll just do what I do when Prisoner comes up: quit the fuck out because I don't want to play broken shit.