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Halo |OT7| You may leave, Juices. And take Team Downer with you.

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U

User 73706

Banned
Tawpgun said:
Im dead serious though. If SpOps has a ton of input lag its gonna be terrible and a chore to play.

Also, I am literally the only person in the theater right now.
Click to expand...

Just makes it easier to have some alone time during the
catwoman
scenes.

TDKR SPOILER: Batman fights crime.
 
N

NobleGundam

Banned
Ramirez said:
I got the train ran on me about 4 games in a row tonight by kids with 3.0 K/Ds, feels good man.

I love how in Reach when you see someone with a K/D like that, you already know to expect lots and lots of jetpacking, map flow out the wazoo.
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Yup, this I encountered Jetpack spamming Dmrs in Team Doubles.

It could have been worse playing against a team with 1 or 2 guys that has over 6.7 K/D.
Tool of Destruction: Banshee.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
ElzarTheBam said:
I'll be on that in less then 3 hours, if you're still on, I'll send you an invite.
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Cool.
heckfu said:
Sure, let me quit my job. Brb.
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Well, excuse me for only having a part-time school job, mister!

Since no one seems interested, I think I'm going to satisfy my curiosity and see how terrible the Xbox community is for Team Fortress 2.

Dis gun b gud

Edit: Huh. Did you guys know that TF2 has a spectator mode?
 
S

senador

Banned
I feel like the coop and firefight lag talk is either exaggerated or isolated, or I'm just lucky. I'm not playing Reach much now, but when I was nearly all of my Firefight or coup Campaign games were just fine. Rarely did I experience, and even more rare was it game crippling.
 
Portugeezer

Portugeezer

Member
The co-op netcode and competitive netcode is different. In co-op is it really just the hosts Xbox controlling AI and all? In competitive host is just acting as a server for other players.

I don't know why the lag is different in co-op and competitive though.

senador said:
I feel like the coop and firefight lag talk is either exaggerated or isolated, or I'm just lucky. I'm not playing Reach much now, but when I was nearly all of my Firefight or coup Campaign games were just fine. Rarely did I experience, and even more rare was it game crippling.
Click to expand...

It's fine if you play with people from your area, too far and then there is some noticeable input lag.
 
T

Talents

Banned
Dax01 said:
Cool.


Well, excuse me for only having a part-time school job, good sir!

Since no one seems interested, I think I'm going to satisfy my curiosity and see how terrible the Xbox community is for Team Fortress 2.

Dis gun b gud
Click to expand...

I've played TF2 on xbox a few times. Everyone who plays it sucks, but they're usually annoying 8 year olds.
 
R

Risen

Member
senador said:
I feel like the coop and firefight lag talk is either exaggerated or isolated, or I'm just lucky. I'm not playing Reach much now, but when I was nearly all of my Firefight or coup Campaign games were just fine. Rarely did I experience, and even more rare was it game crippling.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are hosty? I've never played with anyone who enjoys the netcode for campaign or fire fight off host. For me... fire fight is completely unplayable off host and was the same in ODST. I can deal with campaigh a bit better, but usually am there for the story and the camaraderie, not the game play.
 
S

squidhands

Member
Hypertrooper said:
And have fun with TDKR. In my opinion it is not a great movie.
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As film, it's my least favorite of Nolan's Bat-flicks after one viewing. As a full reveal to Nolan's overall take on Batman and his universe, it's great.

heckfu said:
Sure, let me quit my job. Brb.
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It's funny because I wish I could. :-(

Risen said:
Maybe you are hosty? I've never played with anyone who enjoys the netcode for campaign or fire fight off host. For me... fire fight is completely unplayable off host and was the same in ODST. I can deal with campaigh a bit better, but usually am there for the story and the camaraderie, not the game play.
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I must constantly get host, because my issues with FF netcode are negligible at best. Same thing with campaign; I get framerate issues at consistently predictable points, but rarely get any input lag.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
EuropeOG said:
The co-op netcode and competitive netcode is different. In co-op is it really just the hosts Xbox controlling AI and all? In competitive host is just acting as a server for other players.

I don't know why the lag is different in co-op and competitive though.
Click to expand...

All the AI is client-side in Campaign and Firefight. Only buttons are networked (to overly simplify it). In competitive, most things are controlled by the host, with some client side prediction to smooth things out.


Example:

Firefight: Press L to throw grenade. Other boxes recieved your button press. Their acknowledgment is sent back and the game advances to the next frames where the grenade actually throws. The animation is not allowed to advance until the next inputs are networked, hence "lockstep".

Competitive: Press L to throw grenade. Your box plays the grenade throw animation immediately, and asks the host box "I wish to create a grenade at X,Y,Z in this direction". Host checks your grenade count, goes "Okay, you have enough grenades. I'm now creating a grenade on your box at X,Y,Z with this direction" and your box spawns a thrown grenade (and the host creates one in his own simulation)

The time span between your grenade animation playing and the host creating the grenade on your Xbox usually happens so fast that it looks like one action.



BONUS MATERIAL: This is why sprees are lost when the host leaves. The host is the one that actually tracks your sprees and awards you the medals. It sees you get enough kills in a row for a Killing Frenzy, it'll go "Okay XboxClient1, play the Killing Frenzy event". Host leaves, everyone's kill count resets.
 
S

senador

Banned
EuropeOG said:
It's fine if you play with people from your area, too far and then there is some noticeable input lag.
Click to expand...

Dunno who I played with, not much of a way to tell. Was just going in solo and being matched up.

Risen said:
Maybe you are hosty? I've never played with anyone who enjoys the netcode for campaign or fire fight off host. For me... fire fight is completely unplayable off host and was the same in ODST. I can deal with campaigh a bit better, but usually am there for the story and the camaraderie, not the game play.
Click to expand...

Possibly. I have baller Internet speeds but I rarely get host in normal multiplayer matches for some reason. ODST was way bad when I played with a local friend who had terrible internet.
 
K

Karl2177

Member
Dax01 said:
Anybody in the mood for some Halo 3 at the moment?
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I'll be on at around 5pm your time. It's a ways off, I know.

EuropeOG said:
The co-op netcode and competitive netcode is different. In co-op is it really just the hosts Xbox controlling AI and all? In competitive host is just acting as a server for other players.

I don't know why the lag is different in co-op and competitive though.



It's fine if you play with people from your area, too far and then there is some noticeable input lag.
Click to expand...
But in co-op, everyone is affecting the AI. If I shoot Elite 1, then I have to sen to the host that I am shooting Elite 1 and Elite 1 is going to do barrel roll animation 4. Then that has to go to the host and to all of the other boxes. It's a lot more complex than what I just said.
 
OverHeat

OverHeat

« generous god »
Pro type to pull host,the worst your router is at handling network adress translation to more chance you have to get host :s
 
A

Akai__

Member
Is there a thread on NeoGAF, where I can ask somebody about YouTube/twitch.tv channel designing? I searched for 15 minutes and I couldn't find anything.

If somebody knows someone, who could help me, I would appreciate it. :)
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Karl2177 said:
But in co-op, everyone is affecting the AI. If I shoot Elite 1, then I have to sen to the host that I am shooting Elite 1 and Elite 1 is going to do barrel roll animation 4. Then that has to go to the host and to all of the other boxes. It's a lot more complex than what I just said.
Click to expand...

Actually every Xbox already knows the elite is going to do Barrel Roll Animation 4 - it's not networked at all. Deterministic AI is neat shit. Basically, every Xbox knows exactly what the AI is going to do for every single stimulus it can get (is shot, shot at, near spartan, etc).
 
OverHeat

OverHeat

« generous god »
Ryaaan14 said:
Yep, FiOS is gonna work out well.



Longest 5 days of my life are over.
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Bell FIBE
da41bc43.jpg
;)
If only we could use that kind of bandwidth in H4 ....
 
K

Karl2177

Member
FyreWulff said:
Actually every Xbox already knows the elite is going to do Barrel Roll Animation 4 - it's not networked at all. Deterministic AI is neat shit. Basically, every Xbox knows exactly what the AI is going to do for every single stimulus it can get (is shot, shot at, near spartan, etc).
Click to expand...
Huh. I thought that was the AI complexity that firced the lockstep Bungie was talking about.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
FyreWulff said:
The thing about lockstep is it's straight up luck of the draw, and is VERY sensitive to network conditions, since it's essentially brute-force networking.

Things that can determine your input lag in lockstep:

- Wireless internet versus wired
- How many network hops between all players cumulatively
- Open or closed NAT
- Bandwidth congestion (someone else downloading or torrenting)
- Ping, cumulative between all players (this is the thing that really makes or breaks lockstep)

All I know is in one of the Bungie podcasts, they said Reach's netcode takes up significantly less bandwidth than Halo 3. I'll play it safe and say it was a 40% reduction, although I might have heard 60%. The ability to have someone drop out wouldn't add any noticable lag, you're still just networking buttons and they were still using Halo 3's netcode for that, which was their first successful attempt at campaign networking. (They tried it for Halo 2, but it had to be pulled)

I've had awesome Reach sessions, and Reach sessions with 3 second delays on input. Same with ODST. It's all in the environmental variables. I'd go into the tradeoffs between lockstep and asynch if you're interested, but I do need to go and clean the kitchen in the old apartment :lol
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It was 40%; I believe it was Timmins who said the net code was 40% more efficient. However, the context was multiplayer. I think most would agree the MP net code has seen significant improvement over Halo 3.

I don't think the co-op code saw the same improvement; the biggest improvement appears to be allowing drop-out so as to enable matchmaking. Also, you argued with me in the past that such improvement to lockstep was literally impossible, because of the factors you listed.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
GhaleonEB said:
It was 40%; I believe it was Timmins who said the net code was 40% more efficient. However, the context was multiplayer. I think most would agree the MP net code has seen significant improvement over Halo 3.

I don't think the co-op code saw the same improvement; the biggest improvement appears to be allowing drop-out so as to enable matchmaking. Also, you argued with me in the past that such improvement to lockstep was literally impossible, because of the factors you listed.
Click to expand...

Re-listening you are correct, and it's only competitive. Lockstep is still inherently limited to 3 frames minimum for inputs to be pressed and then processed, while asynch has only 1 frame. This is regardless of how much bandwidth either is using. I guess I was thinking about voice chat bandwidth or something, since it was so restricted in 3.

Trade off here being asynch AI = each AI has the bandwidth cost of a normal player, so if you have 4 players and 12 enemies on the field, you're in BTB territory for latency. Lockstep theoretically supports infinite AI, only limited by the power of your hardware. You'd hit MS's bandwidth restrictions well before you got to Reach's max AI count in asynch Firefight/SPOPS.

Also, for the record - it's possible to do drop in as well under lockstep.

I apologize if I was a bit curt the last time we had this discussion.


Karl2177 said:
Huh. I thought that was the AI complexity that firced the lockstep Bungie was talking about.
Click to expand...

Bit of column A, bit of column B. Basically, MS's bandwidth cap is turble. Reach supports up to 40 AI. Remember that Battlefield 3 on Xbox is still limited to 24 players :lol
 
S

Spawnling

Member
EuropeOG said:
The co-op netcode and competitive netcode is different. In co-op is it really just the hosts Xbox controlling AI and all? In competitive host is just acting as a server for other players.

I don't know why the lag is different in co-op and competitive though.



It's fine if you play with people from your area, too far and then there is some noticeable input lag.
Click to expand...

This is my biggest concern. The lag input is what makes or breaks the experience for me. Especially if you search matchmaking for teammates. It's no fun trying to play through campaign/firefight and everything you do registers half a second to one second later :/
 
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