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Halo: Reach |OT4| This Thread is Not Your Grave, But You Are Welcome In It

urk said:
None of this is meant to excuse any of the missteps away, mind you. We've already got a fairly significant "postmortem" in the works. Every one of our wounded will get a thorough jab from our bayonets.

Interesting, I somehow doubt you guys will hit the bullet points that make Reach less Halo'y for me (otherwise im sure you would have picked up on those points before the game shipped!) but are you planning to make any of this information public? I would assume not?


Hydranockz said:
Urk saves the thread. How long before lakeyB shops urk on to a gif with terrible taste?

Negativity was at a high in this thread it should be noted. Funny how that accidental AR post actually fitted in fine :p

We'll he fine in a week when the cycle starts over I'm sure.

I can only speak for myself but negativity has been rising since the beta, sadly Reach hasn't lived up to expectations and im left without a Halo style game to play. I still play Reach but its in the same vein as I play CoD, I jump on for a bit, get bored and leave.
 
urk said:
If "they" is our accountant, you're probably right. Any support and sustain we provide is an investment that can't be connected to a tangible return (at least not on a ledger). Of course, the rest of us think a bit differently, which is why this level of console game support was pioneered by dudes at Bungie (and a handful of other studios), why Jeremiah's (and my) job exists at all, and while we'll continue to pull the trigger on matchmaking updates until the required ordnance is literally pulled from our hands.

Implementing updates isn't as easy as moving Forge items. Unfortunately, there are real technical hurdles that must be leapt, internal consensus to be won, and a community filled with vehement opinions that must be considered. There's a reason only a few developers concern themselves with years, or even months, of post-ship community support and it isn't because the proposition is easy.

I totally agree with you (at least in spirit) on the mechanic front. If you don't enjoy Reach's core gameplay, there's nothing Jeremiah is going to be able to do to satisfy you. Unless you are really, really looking forward to Splockets.

None of this is meant to excuse any of the missteps away, mind you. We've already got a fairly significant "postmortem" in the works. Every one of our wounded will get a thorough jab from our bayonets.
While I don't pretend to know how the update process happens or why the method of updating the game is the way it is, it's just hard to believe it is or ever was much of a priority at Bungie. Halo 3's forge was sold as a tool to allow users and Bungie to tweak maps/gametypes without the need of a title update. In Halo 3, updates were fairly minimal in scope and far between and similar explanations were made. It's reasonable to believe Bungie didn't foresee the necessity of an easy route to update and didn't have the proper infrastructure to deliver those updates. Lesson learned? We see the same explanations being leveled at us but these excuses are harder to believe. Why wasn't an easier process of updating built in? Why can't small exploits be fixed within the week and instead have to be rolled out a month later with everything else? I'm pissing the time away in the Gears 3 beta and seeing they pass updates to the user on a daily basis, the pile of joke designers who call themselves Epic pulled this off... Why does it take Bungie to so long to "test" everything they plan to put out and why do insanely obvious faults get past this testing? The only reasonable explanation I have, is you guys simply don't give a fuck, but I don't blame you.

From my point of view you guys have been almost forced to churn out Halo game after Halo game with no time to do other projects. I don't blame Bungie for not wanting to go into Reach with the plan to do it all over again with a couple of minor improvements. From a player perspective it sucks because whether we all think it or not, great game mechanics never get old and should never be changed for the sake of change alone (see CS, Quake, SC, etc.) but those devs don't just pump those out every 3 years. Reach feels like the result of bored devs wanting to create everything but Halo inside a package their publisher can market as Halo. The only reason I can imagine why you guys wouldn't be checked out by now, giving MS the finger as you handed them the gold build, is you want to maintain Halo fans as Bungie fans and maybe even some genuine guilt at the prospect of leaving them with what they have. MS should've hired a Halo team earlier or given Halo a break until their team was up, ODST, Wars and Reach have only diminished the grandeur and expected caliber of a Halo release as well as postponing Bungie from creating a project they'd put their unyielding support behind.

Urk doesn't need to convince me that Bungie put all their effort behind Reach's development, and at this point, the last thing I want to hear is that we're witnessing Bungie's strongest efforts at MP gameplay design and post-release support. Being the CE fanboy I am I like to believe that's why, after every previous iteration of Halo, the new game mechanics do more harm then good. I want to believe in New IP and Bungie ability to bring the new, not for the sake of new, but because it's fun as fuck but that's not what you get with Reach. I'm really excited about this retrospective, I hope Bungie's distance from Halo and MS allows them to say all they want to say. A lot of my anticipation for New IP will lie with whats said in the retrospective which could really give me a lot more faith than any trailer/footage.
 

MrBig

Member
wwm0nkey said:
So wait, did Urk just say there would be a TU or did I misread that?
I saw no indication for that nor do I believe there is anything they would need to do with a TU that they can't do with their internal update systems.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
MrBig said:
I saw no indication for that nor do I believe there is anything they would need to do with a TU that they can't do with their internal update systems.
Well I mean there are some things TU's can do that their internal systems can not.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
wwm0nkey said:
So wait, did Urk just say there would be a TU or did I misread that?

Can't you read? He said that bloom was being removed and that the DMR would turn into the BR.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
wwm0nkey said:
No im just in general saying that TU's can change thing that their systems probably can't.
Right. They're limited by the multiplayer scripting engine and the changes they can make to the maps (which seem to overlap what we can do with Forge, though I'm not sure they use the tool for internal playlist updates).

I'd like to see bugs fixed which fall outside the scope of the mutiplayer game engine. The Revenant physics bug, the issue with maps overwriting one another, Forge pieces changing their orientation, and so on.
 

Crucio

Member
vhfive said:
OG HaloGAF knows it's because auto aim works better on it

Lake Minnetonka = EazyB Max_PL

Are you guys talking about CRT TVs? Then how is something like auto aim changed by the output device?
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
If we're talking fixes for Title Update I would love to be able to move the camera around my dead body after I've already switched POV multiple times.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
2 things to do to get the Halo: Reach population back up

1. Title Update - Makes people think things have been improved and are willing to try it again

2. Merge playlist, there are way too many and some thing need to be merged.
 
I don't know why Bungie can't just update the drop shield so that you can't drop one within a certain proximity of another. Like 10 in-game meters edge-to-edge.

If teams couldn't just spam them on top of each other, there wouldn't be a problem with that AA.
 

Havok

Member
The Antitype said:
I don't know why Bungie can't just update the drop shield so that you can't drop one within a certain proximity of another. Like 10 in-game meters edge-to-edge.

If teams couldn't just spam them on top of each other, there wouldn't be a problem with that AA.
Take a One Flag game on Pinnacle as an example. If two people on defense have Drop Shield, there will never not be a Drop Shield on the flag because a new one goes up when the old one drops, and you'd better bet that one of them has the shotgun in there. It has no place in a competitive environment, along with armor lock, evade, camo, and jetpack, unless they are only used where they make sense, and in moderation. Read: single time use pickups (although I was no fan of the Halo 3 equipment, it at least avoided being actively and frequently infuriating) or complete removal and placement of traditional powerups like Overshield, Camo, and the Custom Speed variant instead. Which, by the way, could help solve the issue of there being a mess of power weapons on any given map. Since there are no powerup pickups, the spots that they would have traditionally been placed in house weapons now.
 

Ken

Member
So apparently you can get spawned into an area on Paradiso behind some glass and shoot people but not get hit by people on the other side.

This first video shows the guy spawning into the window.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351382&player=Chocopolka
Second video shows him shooting and killing enemies but not get hurt.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351390&player=Chocopolka

Both unrendered unfortunately but I thought it was interesting.

Also, good games Tunavi.
 

Ramirez

Member
Hydranockz said:
Urk saves the thread. How long before lakeyB shops urk on to a gif with terrible taste?

Negativity was at a high in this thread it should be noted. Funny how that accidental AR post actually fitted in fine :p

We'll he fine in a week when the cycle starts over I'm sure.

Urk doing his job saves the thread? Oh brother.

Removing AA's takes extensive testing and technical leaps, what other mind blowing facts will I read on GAF?
 

Hey You

Member
Ken said:
So apparently you can get spawned into an area on Paradiso behind some glass and shoot people but not get hit by people on the other side.

This first video shows the guy spawning into the window.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351382&player=Chocopolka
Second video shows him shooting and killing enemies but not get hurt.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351390&player=Chocopolka

Both unrendered unfortunately but I thought it was interesting.

Also, good games Tunavi.
Rendering both currently (in SD).
 

Nutter

Member
Ramirez said:
Urk doing his job saves the thread? Oh brother.

Removing AA's takes extensive testing and technical leaps, what other mind blowing facts will I read on GAF?
There was this time when the OG Halo GAF was called Bungie Defense Force..

.........

Some people now just take that to new never before seen high level.
 
Nutter said:
There was this time when the OG Halo GAF was called Bungie Defense Force..

.........

Some people now just take that to new never before seen high level.
And some people make a second account on Gaf just to get their 2 cents in. That's just the world we live in.

Urk gets paid to post on HaloGaf? Jeez I have been barking up the wrong career tree.

Had some truly amazing games with my bro ZalinKrow and Zeouterlimits on Multi Team. Quite a variety of gametypes but when this game is good, boy is it good.
 
urk said:
I can feel your anger. ;)

sidious = pope?

pope-sidious.jpg
 

Ramirez

Member
Hydranockz said:
And some people make a second account on Gaf just to get their 2 cents in. That's just the world we live in.

Urk gets paid to post on HaloGaf? Jeez I have been barking up the wrong career tree.

Had some truly amazing games with my bro ZalinKrow and Zeouterlimits on Multi Team. Quite a variety of gametypes but when this game is good, boy is it good.

The guy who made a 2nd account just made a more thought out post than 90% of the people in this thread ever dreamed of making. His job is to spin anything and everything, I miss the old Urk, who complained just as much as any of us about dumb decisions in the game. ;)
 
Yea that excuse "its harder to update than you think" is fucked. Maybe in Halo 2/3 that worked, but if they haven't made the process any easier by now then what the shit?

How hard can it be to download the current living dead sword base and put a killzone on that ledge and get that uploaded or the playlist updated to load that new map?

It should be simple and done in maybe 30 minutes.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Ramirez said:
The guy who made a 2nd account just made a more thought out post than 90% of the people in this thread ever dreamed of making. His job is to spin anything and everything, I miss the old Urk, who complained just as much as any of us about dumb decisions in the game. ;)
I still bitch, I just do it in person now.

Nobody at the studio thinks they've made a perfect game, and I'm not in the business of shutting down (or spinning) forum complaints. The people who play more are going to be the people who find all the blemishes, big and small. Some we can fix, some we can't.

If I didn't value the opinions in this thread, I'd just tell you all to fuck off and call it a day. ;)
 

Booshka

Member
xxjuicesxx said:
Yea that excuse "its harder to update than you think" is fucked. Maybe in Halo 2/3 that worked, but if they haven't made the process any easier by now then what the shit?

How hard can it be to download the current living dead sword base and put a killzone on that ledge and get that uploaded or the playlist updated to load that new map?

It should be simple and done in maybe 30 minutes.
Reminds me of the 1up Yours Mitch Gitelman interview, the crew were joking about "flipping a switch" to change game mechanics (Traffic Checking) in Burnout. It was pretty funny when they were all talking about how awesome it would be if you could easily do that in the menu, then Mitch got all realist game developer and said it isn't that easy. Luke then jokingly went on to say, "I don't care about the mechanics behind the switch, just flip it." Pretty funny, especially now that his game is in the same state.

I do agree that there should be a more efficient way of fixing glaring issues in MM playlists, but I am sure it isn't as easy as everyone thinks it should be.
 
xxjuicesxx said:
Yea that excuse "its harder to update than you think" is fucked. Maybe in Halo 2/3 that worked, but if they haven't made the process any easier by now then what the shit?

How hard can it be to download the current living dead sword base and put a killzone on that ledge and get that uploaded or the playlist updated to load that new map?

It should be simple and done in maybe 30 minutes.
But even if it was that easy, some random dev can't just hop in, fix it up and send it back out. As urk mentioned, there are a bunch of hoops to jump through. As a software tester I have seen some terrible systems with atrocious design decisions and clear problems with really easy fixes. Each one has to be discussed for silly amounts of time as to what to do with it. More often than not, unless it is very severe or of high enough priority it will simply be left alone.

It is sad to see similar things happen here and while I wish like the rest of you that the problems can be dealt with, I can empathise with the devs... for a while.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Booshka said:
Reminds me of the 1up Yours Mitch Gitelman interview, the crew were joking about "flipping a switch" to change game mechanics (Traffic Checking) in Burnout. It was pretty funny when they were all talking about how awesome it would be if you could easily do that in the menu, then Mitch got all realist game developer and said it isn't that easy. Luke then jokingly went on to say, "I don't care about the mechanics behind the switch, just flip it." Pretty funny, especially now that his game is in the same state.

I do agree that there should be a more efficient way of fixing glaring issues in MM playlists, but I am sure it isn't as easy as everyone thinks it should be.
Hahaha I loved that episode. It was hilarious.
 

Tunavi

Banned
Ken said:
So apparently you can get spawned into an area on Paradiso behind some glass and shoot people but not get hit by people on the other side.

This first video shows the guy spawning into the window.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351382&player=Chocopolka
Second video shows him shooting and killing enemies but not get hurt.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17351390&player=Chocopolka

Both unrendered unfortunately but I thought it was interesting.

Also, good games Tunavi.
THATs what they were talking about! I had no idea what was going on. I wonder if that was intentional or not. That's a pretty interesting exploit.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Hydranockz said:
But even if it was that easy, some random dev can't just hop in, fix it up and send it back out. As urk mentioned, there are a bunch of hoops to jump through. As a software tester I have seen some terrible systems with atrocious design decisions and clear problems with really easy fixes. Each one has to be discussed for silly amounts of time as to what to do with it. More often than not, unless it is very severe or of high enough priority it will simply be left alone.

It is sad to see similar things happen here and while I wish like the rest of you that the problems can be dealt with, I can empathise with the devs... for a while.
As can I, to degrees. We got glimpses and hints that integrating changes into matchmaking was more involved than we thought with the MLG playlist issue when it went live.

But at the same time, this is also Bungie's 3rd stab at building a matchmaking system, and the second on the 360. So I had hoped they would have a more flexible, easier to update system. And when Jeremiah tells us that the settings they have to adjust Firefight are the same that we see, and it still takes two months to make a change like disabling weapon pick ups in Arcade, I wonder how much of that time span is the complexities of the system versus priorities.

It's the priorities of what got updated that I don't get. The customization-heavy stuff like Action Sack was added before BTB got cleaned up. Multi Team got split into three teams of four to facilitate the four-way maps, but those were not added. We get one big update to the playlists per month, even when small fixes and exploits emerge during the month that should in theory be small to fix.

I'm a process guy; I help design, build, test and use financial processes for a living. Process and policy are king in my word, so I respect that Jeremiah and crew have a methodical process they put changes through and try not to make exceptions but for emergencies (MLG's gravity issue). But it feels to me like they have too heavy a process in place, with too few intersection points to make updates into the the system, for the small kind of fixes that need to happen immediately after discovery (see: weapon pick ups in Arcade, assassinations in Hockey, drop shields in objective games, the Scorpion/Banshee traps on Paradiso). Upon discovery, I wish stuff like that would get adjusted immediately. It happens months later, and to me that's a red flag for either priorities or the process and system itself.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
xxjuicesxx said:
Yea that excuse "its harder to update than you think" is fucked. Maybe in Halo 2/3 that worked, but if they haven't made the process any easier by now then what the shit?

How hard can it be to download the current living dead sword base and put a killzone on that ledge and get that uploaded or the playlist updated to load that new map?

It should be simple and done in maybe 30 minutes.
30 minutes is too short, expect an update on BWU about it being possibly implemented early next month.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
The MLG playlist actually still has issues. On Sanctuary Bomb, you can disarm a bomb just by walking up and grabbing it. You're not supposed to be able to disarm the bomb at all.
 
MrBig said:

WILL NOT BELIEVE.

Frankie never had hair!


Tashi0106 said:
The MLG playlist actually still has issues. On Sanctuary Bomb, you can disarm a bomb just by walking up and grabbing it. You're not supposed to be able to disarm the bomb at all.

Doesn't it have health recharge in the playlist as well?
 

Crucio

Member
That's a wig right? Lol.


So like I played a whole 5ish games in defiant map pack this weekend. Why no jackpot eh???
Hehe.
I had a fun last game in highlands. This clip represents the level of skill associated to their team and the level of fun I had.
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Does anyone have their armor ability change when they hit a black screen? Sometimes in the middle of the game the host will change or it will just go to the black screen for a while and then when it returns I either don't have my armor ability anymore, or it switches to sprint. Also, if I die afterwards even though on the respawn screen I have Camo selected I respawn again with Sprint. If I die after that first black screen I have to actually reselect Camo again not just let it respawn me with the earlier selection so that I have the armor ability I want.

Btw, I still don't understand this whining about all these playlists. So what? What they're doing now with the playlists is the best way to handle a matchmaking game with such a wide variety of game types. Do you want to play SWAT all the time in the other playlists? Probably not and so that's why it has it's own playlist. Reach launched with that and people bitched about it. Snipers appears in other playlists despite having it's own playlist - which I still don't fucking understand - and yet it will often get picked. Imagine if the snipers population didn't have their own playlist. Think about how often you would be playing Snipers and Swat instead of regular Slayer. Reach's population is the way it is because Halo isn't as popular anymore and a lot of people don't like this game whether it be gameplay related or the quality of the playlists. I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of playlists and I am perfectly fine just playing with a couple of hundred folks on one playlist rather than a couple thousand (after a merge) who will vote for shit that I don't want to play. You can sit here and mock the population of certain playlists but at the end of the day at least I don't have to play Griffball or Living Dead or Swat if I don't want to. Now, create an Elite Slayer playlist so I don't have to play that shit again and remove Snipers from other playlists.
 

Recarpo

Member
Kuroyume said:
Does anyone have their armor ability change when they hit a black screen? Sometimes in the middle of the game the host will change or it will just go to the black screen for a while and then when it returns I either don't have my armor ability anymore, or it switches to sprint.

Yep, have that happen a good bit after black screens.

Also, if I die afterwards even though on the respawn screen I have Camo selected I respawn again with Sprint. If I die after that first black screen I have to actually reselect Camo again not just let it respawn me with the earlier selection so that I have the armor ability I want.

I've haven't really noticed this one although I haven't gotten black screens lately so maybe I just don't remember it happening.
 
Kuroyume said:
Does anyone have their armor ability change when they hit a black screen? Sometimes in the middle of the game the host will change or it will just go to the black screen for a while and then when it returns I either don't have my armor ability anymore, or it switches to sprint. Also, if I die afterwards even though on the respawn screen I have Camo selected I respawn again with Sprint. If I die after that first black screen I have to actually reselect Camo again not just let it respawn me with the earlier selection so that I have the armor ability I want.

Yeah that has happened to me before.
 
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