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Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come

stephen08

Member
Deputy Moonman said:
I agree that you have to really be careful about distinguishing what makes a player hardcore and what makes a player casual. But Reach completely took out the ability for any precision weapon to be a deep weapon. Instead, everything is a struggle against bloom and mastering the ability to pace shots, which is not Halo.
Adding a mechanic to change up firing rate doesn't make it deeper?

In previous games fights with the utility weapon were much more straightforward. My aiming vector vs. yours. Now it's My aiming vector + my ability to pace shots vs. your aiming vector and your ability to pace shots.

I'm not saying you have to like it but the DMR with bloom certainly is deeper than previous weapons.
 

Booshka

Member
Bloom in Reach is sloppy and poorly executed, it cheapens gunfights more than it adds to them. I'll take the 1v1 Pistol fights in Halo CE over any other Halo gunfight, combination of strafe speed, the aim assist, magnetism and gun mechanics make for the most satisfying and skill based shooting in the Halo franchise.

Tremors Live!

http://www.twitch.tv/mcstrongside
 

Ken

Member
FyreWulff said:
Needs more top hat.

bae88e9d.png
 
I'm interested to hear more from the people who don't think Reach is currently the best online shooter. I've had a blast with it. What's better that I am missing out on?
 
stephen08 said:
Adding a mechanic to change up firing rate doesn't make it deeper?

In previous games fights with the utility weapon were much more straightforward. My aiming vector vs. yours. Now it's My aiming vector + my ability to pace shots vs. your aiming vector and your ability to pace shots.

I'm not saying you have to like it but the DMR with bloom certainly is deeper than previous weapons.
I totally disagree. Deeper in what way? Bloom is not something that compliments or enhances my skill with a weapon. Instead, it limits my ability to fine tune my accuracy and prowess, something that I've developed over the last 10 years from playing the previous 3 halo games. Bloom is always adding some uncertainty to my shots and holding back weapons that could be more lethal. This lethality (is that even a word?) was something that players could work on for months to years in previous halo installments, which is what makes a weapon deeper, in my opinion.

Bloom is particularly ridiculous on the DMR. If Bungie wanted to slow the game down, they should have given the precision weapons a very slow rate of fire and excluded bloom altogether. But that would have caused even more outrage, so it's as if we got bloom as a deceptive way of keeping people from complaining about how long it takes to kill players in Reach (even though that is exactly what Bungie was going for...)

And like other people and Booshka have mentioned, bloom is faulty and poorly implemented. I can pace my shots and still die because someone else spammed the trigger and got lucky. How does that make shooting anything other than sporadic? Bloom precedes weapon functionality. I can't practice shooting and aiming if bloom is constantly messing with the accuracy of the weapon I'm trying to get better with. And pacing doesn't even eliminate bloom - that's the most retarded part!
 
It's a mechanic with more depth because it gives you control of the balance between accuracy and speed, while taking away nothing from previous games (you can complain about player momentum, but this has nothing to do with bloom). Bloom makes firefights more interesting with people who know what they are doing.
 
HiredN00bs said:
It's a mechanic with more depth because it gives you control of the balance between accuracy and speed, while taking away nothing from previous games (you can complain about player momentum, but this has nothing to do with bloom). Bloom makes firefights more interesting with people who know what they are doing.
Bloom doesn't allow me to control anything, especially not the speed of my shots. If I had complete control of my shots, I wouldn't have to deal with bloom in the first place. Bloom is a limiting mechanism. I mean, yes, there is a balance between speed and accuracy of shots with bloom, but it's not a feature that gives me more control over what I'm doing. If anything, it's removing control as opposed to adding control.
HiredN00bs said:
I'm interested to hear more from the people who don't think Reach is currently the best online shooter. I've had a blast with it. What's better that I am missing out on?
I can't say much about this since I don't play anything else.
I am looking forward to Gears of War 3.
Though I will ask, what's the point of being the best online shooter if it still falls short in so many areas? If it's the best, then a lot of people are playing it despite its problems. That's not saying a lot for Reach.

You ask what you're missing out on, but I think I spelled it out perfectly with an earlier post. Longer kill times with precision weapons (or any non-power weapon for that matter) + bloom + power weapons + armor abilities = an unholy advantage for grouped players over randoms. Yesterday or the day before I mentioned that I would be perfectly content with no changes to Reach's current state (even if I don't much care for it) with the addition of a playlist where no parties could jump into it. A randoms only playlist of team slayer. Then at least I wouldn't have to contend with the ultra massive disadvantages that exist in Reach when playing solo. That's a disgustingly huge and glaring fault, imo. The people defending Reach keep overlooking this. It's awful.
 

Woorloog

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
It's a mechanic with more depth because it gives you control of the balance between accuracy and speed, while taking away nothing from previous games (you can complain about player momentum, but this has nothing to do with bloom). Bloom makes firefights more interesting with people who know what they are doing.
al0wh.jpg

I know what i am doing.*
Because of bloom, it doesn't matter.

Reach is not the best online shooter at the moment. Shitty maps, it's slow, playlists are atrocious, player incentive system is half assed (daily caps?)... i could go on.

*The reason i love Halos. I always feel like i know exactly what to do, even if it doesn't always work. In Reach, i might just run and spam (DMR and 'nades).
 
Woorloog said:
Reach is not the best online shooter at the moment.
What is then, in your opinion?

Also, I'm not implying that people who dislike bloom don't know what they're doing. I'm just saying that it adds another skill to firefights which in my opinion is more interesting. I agree that two people spamming each other isn't very interesting, that may as well be an AR fight. And to say that it doesn't matter what you do with bloom shows a lack of understanding of the mechanic, unless you're just being hyperbolic.

Deputy Moonman said:
Bloom doesn't allow me to control anything.
It's an analog mechanic where accuracy and speed have an inverse relationship. and you have direct control of the speed. Of course it does.
 
You guys make it seem like bloom doesn't allow you to hit anything sometimes.

Why am I always on top of the leader boards game after game? Its easy, just pace those shots.
 
xxjuicesxx said:
You guys make it seem like bloom doesn't allow you to hit anything sometimes.

Why am I always on top of the leader boards game after game? Its easy, just pace those shots.
Saying you don't like it is one thing. Saying it has problems is one thing. Saying it doesn't matter is just patently false.

Deputy Moonman said:
what's the point of being the best online shooter if it still falls short in so many areas?
There are more than a few people mocking the idea. Just curious to see what games they think are so much better.
 

Woorloog

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
What is then, in your opinion?

Also, I'm not implying that people that dislike bloom don't know what they're doing. And to say that it doesn't matter what you do with bloom shows a lack of understanding of the mechanic.
I know how bloom works. I know i hate it. I know it doesn't add skill element to the game, it adds luck elemenet (spamming). It is supposed to make DMR (and others) to stick its role but it doesn't. Useless, piece of shit game mechanic. And the worst of it, removing it from the game breaks the game (because that would automatically make DMR and Nerfle overpowered against anything else).
I can pace my shots but it is useless if the enemy spams. If i spam as well, the game's purely about luck. If we both pace, it still about luck, because the fucking bloom is not consistent. And let's not even think about what happens when one of us is the host.
If bloom is so great, why do MLG players just spam DMR?
I'd rather play Halo CE multiplayer, as much as i hate that pistol, than play Reach. Too bad Halo PC doesn't have vanilla servers anymore...
HiredN00bs said:
It's an analog mechanic where accuracy and speed have an inverse relationship. and you have direct control of the speed. Of course it does.
The fuck does it matter if i can control the speed if the accuracy stays more or less the same regardless what i do? The fucking weapon is not consistent. And let's not talk about Reach's pistol...

As for better shooter, Halo 3 is outright better but it's unplayable. When i'm online, there are not enough players to find matches quickly (well, outside Team/Social Slayer but i don't like those in H3) and find people who have matching TrueSkill. The game's laggier than it was when it had a lot of population. The playlists are left in atrocious state.

BFBC2. And very likely BF3 once it's released.

Hell, i regret i sold my copy of CoDBLOPS. In retrospect, i liked it better than Reach. (And it does have splitscreen support as well, i could play it with my friend. Reach's splitscreen makes the game really horrible looking and draw distance is ridiculously low.)

ODST is better, though it lacks competitive multiplayer. It's campaign and Firefight are way better than Reach's.

Reach is not a bad game but neither is it a good one. Or, because someone needs it spelled out, it is medicore. It has a ridiculous amount of half assed systems (bloom, AAs, vehicle health, grenades, broken custom Juggernaut, Invasion) and the worst maps (Tempest is a gem though) i've seen in any game. Neither of which should exist in an online shooter.
 

Woorloog

Banned
stephen08 said:
I edited my post but... Reach is medicore most of the time. Awful at others. Rarely it peaks to magnificent, because it is Halo and only Halos have these certain kinds of moments. Not even Battlefields managed quite the same. And this is why i keep playing it.
 

vhfive

Member
HiredN00bs said:
I'm interested to hear more from the people who don't think Reach is currently the best online shooter. I've had a blast with it. What's better that I am missing out on?
Blops
Not even trolling, if I'm playing by myself then I'll play Blops 90% of the time. The only reason I've stayed with Reach is because of this community. I enjoy playing and socializing with fellow halogaffers if it wasn't for you guys I would have put this game on the shelf ages ago.
 

stephen08

Member
Woorloog said:
I edited my post but... Reach is medicore most of the time. Awful at others. Rarely it peaks to magnificent, because it is Halo and only Halos have these certain kinds of moments. Not even Battlefields managed quite the same. And this is why i keep playing it.

Awful and mediocre are such hyperbolic assertions that they damage your case.
 
Woorloog said:
I know how bloom works. I know i hate it. I know it doesn't add skill element to the game, it adds luck elemenet (spamming). It is supposed to make DMR (and others) to stick its role but it doesn't. Useless, piece of shit game mechanic. And the worst of it, removing it from the game breaks the game (because that would automatically make DMR and Nerfle overpowered against anything else).
I can pace my shots but it is useless if the enemy spams. If i spam as well, the game's purely about luck. If we both pace, it still about luck, because the fucking bloom is not consistent. And let's not even think about what happens when one of us is the host.
If bloom is so great, why do MLG players just spam DMR?
Do MLG players just spam the DMR? That wasn't what I saw in the games I've watched.

Bloom is consistent, it's player position that is sometimes inconsistent because of flaws in the network. It always expands and retracts at the same rate for everyone. The specific way in which you describe the mechanic shows some misconception. If you want to play a game of maximized accuracy, you should fire your gun as quickly as possible while keeping the reticle filled with your target. You can use cover to reset your bloom. You can close distance and increase your firing rate while going for the headshot. You can back off and increase firing rate while going for a body kill. It's a game of risk, but it's controlled by the player. There are many options and tactics that bloom opens up to the player.
 

Woorloog

Banned
stephen08 said:
Awful and mediocre are such hyperbolic assertions that they damage your case.
So i'm not allowed to have opinions?
How about you shut the fuck up.

I was tempted to call the game merely awful, but that wouldn't work because i happen to play it. If it were awful, then i wouldn't play it, even if it had these moments.
And of course playing with HaloGAFers and friends make it good. But alone, it is medicore. And no game should be medicore when playing alone.
HiredN00bs said:
Do MLG players just spam the DMR? That wasn't what I saw in the games I've watched.
Well that's what i've heard anyway and my few tries to play it have confirmed that. Maybe i should've said MLG playlist players.
HiredN00bs said:
Bloom is consistent You can use cover to reset your bloom.
Maybe it could be consistent with dedicated servers. Mechanics that are badly prone to latency should not be used in P2P games.
And maybe i could go cover if the fucking game didn't limit my movement as well. Slow and a lot of inertia. I'll armor lock instead. And my enemy loses interest and goes away (regardless whether i'm in cover or armor lock).
 
Woorloog said:
So i'm not allowed to have opinions?
How about you shut the fuck up.
That's not what he said. He said your hyperbole detracts from valid points you may have. Let's try and stay civil with each other.
 

Woorloog

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
That's not what he said. He said your hyperbole detracts from valid points you may have. Let's try and stay civil with each other.
Really? What i read from his post is that i'm not allowed to call Reach awful at times and medicore the rest of time.
 
Woorloog said:
Really? What i read from his post is that i'm not allowed to call Reach awful at times and medicore the rest of time.
He never said anything about what you're allowed to do. You're allowed to make hyperbolic statements, but it will detract from the discussion.
 

stephen08

Member
Woorloog said:
Really? What i read from his post is that i'm not allowed to call Reach awful at times and medicore the rest of time.

Oh you are allowed to. It's just hard to take your claims seriously when you exaggerate that much. What's much more reasonable is to say that Reach is a well made game that has issues that prevent you from enjoying it.
 

Woorloog

Banned
stephen08 said:
Oh you are allowed to. It's just hard to take your claims seriously when you exaggerate that much. What's much more reasonable is to say that Reach is a well made game that has issues that prevent you from enjoying it.
I'm not exaggerating. That was my truthful opinion. As i said, it is playable with friends or party. But alone? It is POS compared to Halo 3 and most other games i've played.
 
Woorloog said:
I'm not exaggerating. That was my truthful opinion. As i said, it is playable with friends or party. But alone? It is POS compared to Halo 3 and most other games i've played.
Why would you and your friends subject yourselves to a "piece of shit" game when "Halo 3 and most other games" are viable alternatives? You're either exaggerating, or at the very least, not being honest with yourself.
 
Long Night of Solace, baby.

I'm also taking note of stuff I haven't explored yet. Often I'll come across something and say "Hey, I need to break out of the map for this shit."
 

wwm0nkey

Member
I don't know about you guys but until the TU drops this month I will mostly be on Dead Island and Pokemon TCGO (that shit is addictive)

I will probably get on today to go and beat the campaign again since it is the 1 year anniversary of Reach.
 

Woorloog

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Why would you and your friends subject yourselves to a "piece of shit" game when "Halo 3 and most other games" are viable alternatives? You're either exaggerating, or at the very least, not being honest with yourself.
It's a piece of shit when played alone. With friends and/or party, it can be surprisingly good.
How is it so hard to grasp there's a difference beetween those two?

One of Reach's issues is that it's too team based for a Halo game. A single person whom you can depend on makes wonders. Randoms are not trusthworthy.
EDIT don't start about team basedness, please, i'm not in mood to explain what i mean, think Halo 3 and how you can win alone multiple people
 

Woorloog

Banned
Hypertrooper said:
3hours and 34minutes till the bomb drop.
Is TGS today or what are you meaning? EDIT i mean when they show Hang 'Em High and that Halo 2 map... i really forgot the name...
EDIT i really, really forgot the name and i cannot recall it... WTF?
EDIT2 HEADLONG!
 
vhfive said:
Blops
Not even trolling, if I'm playing by myself then I'll play Blops 90% of the time. The only reason I've stayed with Reach is because of this community. I enjoy playing and socializing with fellow halogaffers if it wasn't for you guys I would have put this game on the shelf ages ago.

Oh fuck.

Opinions and all that.

But fuck... COD is a pile of shit.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Stripper13 said:
Oh fuck.

Opinions and all that.

But fuck... COD is a pile of shit.
No it's not. MW1, BLOPs are good. Fun, fast-paced, hectic even. Has it's own issues but at least there it's rather easy to gain ridiculous sprees unlike in Reach (not counting the tank. I once gained 60 kills with a tank in a Boneyard Bro Slayer).
 

orznge

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
It's a mechanic with more depth because it gives you control of the balance between accuracy and speed, while taking away nothing from previous games (you can complain about player momentum, but this has nothing to do with bloom). Bloom makes firefights more interesting with people who know what they are doing.

inertia has a lot to do with bloom considering that if players had any degree of freedom of movement it would be much harder to land shots and bloom would be even more of a hindrance to the game, and lol at that last sentence "haha yeah man you guys just don't know what you're doing, I happen to be really good at controlling this poorly implemented mechanic that only compounds the rest of the problems the game has".
 

orznge

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Why would you and your friends subject yourselves to a "piece of shit" game when "Halo 3 and most other games" are viable alternatives? You're either exaggerating, or at the very least, not being honest with yourself.

probably because they want to play a halfway decent game that is built on the core mechanics of the games in the Halo franchise that they liked (which is reasonable because 3/4 of the games have some degree of similarity) and they are not you "oh well if you don't like the game why would you play it or ever acknowledge it exists or have an opinion on it"

it makes you wonder how the TU ever came about with people like you considering you're like a caricature of the perfect consumer designed to lap up "developer intent" that is completely metaphysical with no regard for how the mechanical parts of the game actually function
 
Captain Blood said:
Edit:
Also I came across this while looking through the Halo 3 thread and about fell out of my chair. /thegoodolddays
This really needs to be on a shirt.

itsamiracle.jpg


edit: Challenges like Chaddlesby's Justice need to be re-tuned to something that actually encourages decent player behavior. Instead of just avenging a teammate, how about a reward for some Showstoppers (like Devo) or at least Protector? What was that line at the beginning of Reach again..."you can leave that lone wolf stuff behind."? yeah...
 
orznge said:
probably because they want to play a halfway decent game that is built on the core mechanics of the games in the Halo franchise that they liked (which is reasonable because 3/4 of the games have some degree of similarity) and they are not you "oh well if you don't like the game why would you play it or ever acknowledge it exists or have an opinion on it"

it makes you wonder how the TU ever came about with people like you considering you're like a caricature of the perfect consumer designed to lap up "developer intent" that is completely metaphysical with no regard for how the mechanical parts of the game actually function
My experience with this game mechanic has not been bad. I know the game has flaws, and I support fixes and additions that give players the the types of games they want. Your condescension is unnecessary. I'm very interested in the design and the mechanics of the game.Try me.
 

Tawpgun

Member
HiredN00bs said:
I'm interested to hear more from the people who don't think Reach is currently the best online shooter. I've had a blast with it. What's better that I am missing out on?
I point you to the PC market.

But as far as console shooters go, its the best current one, as in Halo 3 is better, but due to low population and lack of support, you could make the arguement that Reach is better. But talking pure gameplay, H3 > Reach.

Also, why bloom is bad, written by a 343i employee.

Reticle “bloom” is more than just the way the reticle expands when the player shoots. What we actually have done is take control over the maximum radius of the cone of error that expands as the player fires. The actual UI “bloom” is just a representation of a feature that has been in Halo since the beginning. The colloquial “BR Spread” from Halo 3 was this same set of variables, just implemented differently. The same goes for the Halo CE magnum, where holding the trigger down resulted in less accuracy than pulling the trigger rapidly.

What makes Reach’s implementation different from previous games is that it was applied to medium range headshot weapons with the goal of enforcing a “cadence.” Cadence here refers to the pacing and pattern in which the player is expected to fire the weapon to maintain accuracy. For the Needle Rifle, for example, the optimal cadence is to hold down the trigger for three shots, then let go and hold it again for three more shots, then deliver the seventh shot to the head.

Ultimately, bloom and cadence (among other features) were specifically designed to give Reach a slower pace than previous titles. However, a couple of notable features have arisen from this decision: for starters, cadence is easily interrupted in Reach. In fact, many of the Armor Abilities are almost explicitly designed to do that and waiting for that fifth DMR shot to be ready can be really frustrating when you lose the race against your opponent’s Armor Lock energy recovery. Second, shooting to cadence is really only a valid tactic at range; the closer you get to your opponent, the less cadence applies, and players both casual and competitive can attest to how spamming the trigger actually becomes the more reliable option here. So, ultimately while the goal was to make the weapons feel more sophisticated and add a layer of skill required to use them, the net result has been that medium range weapons such as the DMR feel unreliable at their intended range, and trigger spam has not been discouraged.

What we can do is adjust the maximum cone of error on all headshot weapons (except sniper rifles) for any gametype based on a percentage of its default value. The obvious example that we used at Halo Fest is 0% bloom, which guarantees that the DMR, Needle Rifle, and Magnum are going to shoot exactly where you point them, every time. We could, if we wanted to, raise the bloom to 300%, making it so that said weapons become even less accurate over sustained fire, and take longer to recover their accuracy. Not that we’d do that. Especially not to the MLG playlist on April Fool’s. Why are you looking at me that way?

Anyway, this is a powerful tool that we plan to use in very controlled instances. Our primary goal is not to simply strip away bloom from all gametypes. What we’ve found is keeping some bloom actually allows the headshot weapons to feel more rewarding and reliable without overpowering them. In fact, the number we’re currently sweet on is 85%. At a 15% reduction, the DMR feels a lot better, without the Needle Rifle becoming Dolphin Gun, Destroyer of Worlds. In that way, we may find ourselves with a happy medium. That’s not to say that “Zero Bloom” doesn’t have its place in this new world order. It certainly does, but trust us: with zero bloom in place, the Needle Rifle becomes (and should be treated like) a power weapon. As such any implementation of zero bloom will be in a place where we don’t likely expect players to necessarily want to pick up anything other than what they start with. Unfortunately, we can’t make this user-facing, so players will not be able to experiment with bloom themselves, but we plan to release multiple gametypes with varying bloom settings.

Game. Set. Match.

Interested in seeing 85% bloom.
 
A27 Tawpgun said:
Also, why bloom is bad, written by a 343i employee.



Game. Set. Match.

Interested in seeing 85% bloom.
I will gladly welcome any kind of reduction to bloom. But 15% is not very much. I know David said that a 15% reduction seemed to be the sweet spot, though. Fingers crossed that it makes a significant difference.

Also, yesterday's high: 104 Today's high: upper 80's Tomorrow's high: upper 60's
My body is ready. So sick of summer already.
 
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