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[Devolution]

Anyone else down for some customs?

 

[The Antitype]

I still don't understand how making a weapon actually reliable is a bad thing. It's the Halo:CE pistol argument all over again. If someone can cross map you, you can cross map them. It's better than being stuck with an illegitimate weapon thanks to bloom.

My issue is the weapon's new-found versatility with no bloom. The DMR was a mid-range powerhouse that was useable but less effective and unreliable for kills at short and mid-range. It's place in the sandbox was defined by bloom, and players could take it beyond those limits if they were willing to roll the dice.

Coming up on a DMR-user at short-range with a pistol or AR, needler, NR, hell, even plasma-pistol melee was a strong position, because you knew the other guy's accuracy was going to be terrible if he wanted to hammer out enough shots to kill you in time. Now? You better have a shotty, cause anybody with decent aim is going to wreck you in 5 shots.

Precedent through the previous Halo games shows that if you give a head-shot capable weapon the means to kill effectively at short AND medium range, it will dominate the sandbox and limit the variety of encounters players experience.

I just came away from Gears of War 3, where every fucking match is shotgun v. shotgun. Last thing I want is to go back to Reach and find every fucking match DMR v. DMR.

That's my only concern. But if that's what happens, then it's no problem, so long as they keep the bloom playlists active.

 

[RBK]

Where are those medals from?

 

[Shake Appeal]

So I played bloomless Reach.

LAWL

Whiners have a lot to answer for.

 

[GhaleonEB]

My issue is the weapon's new-found versatility with no bloom. The DMR was a mid-range powerhouse that was useable but less effective and unreliable for kills at short and mid-range. It's place in the sandbox was defined by bloom, and players could take it beyond those limits if they were willing to roll the dice.

Coming up on a DMR-user at short-range with a pistol or AR, needler, NR, hell, even plasma-pistol melee was a strong position, because you knew the other guy's accuracy was going to be terrible if he wanted to hammer out enough shots to kill you in time. Now? You better have a shotty, cause anybody with decent aim is going to wreck you in 5 shots.

Precedent through the previous Halo games shows that if you give a head-shot capable weapon the means to kill effectively at short AND medium range, it will dominate the sandbox and limit the variety of encounters players experience.

I just came away from Gears of War 3, where every fucking match is shotgun v. shotgun. Last thing I want is to go back to Reach and find every fucking match DMR v. DMR.

That's my only concern. But if that's what happens, then it's no problem, so long as they keep the bloom playlists active.

We'll see how it goes in the final implementation, but 343 has said their intent is to make zero bloom a specialized game type ala SWAT, not for standard playlists. Those are likely to see something around 85% bloom, which is hopefully the sweet spot that mitigates some of the current problems while avoiding the problems you described with zero bloom.

In the end the only real solution is for a new game to take another stab at core gun play, hopefully learning from Reach's take on it.

Where are those medals from?

Custom, would-be medals suggested by folks in this thread, which Devolution is creating medals for.

 

[Voltron64]

So I played bloomless Reach.

LAWL

Whiners have a lot to answer for.

Don't pace your shots.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Customs anyone? we only have 3 people so far lol

 

[Tashi]

Where are those medals from?

Devolution

edit: invite me monkey, i'll play a few games

 

[Barrow Roll]

In the end the only real solution is for a new game to take another stab at core gun play, hopefully learning from Reach's take on it.

I really think zero bloom would be fine if the DMR was just 2x zoom.

I'm up for Horde.

I randomly crashed Yeti's party last night and completed all 12 Waves of Beast on Insane (my first time playing Beast mode). Was fun.

Awesome, I'll shoot you an invite some time.

 

[RBK]

We'll see how it goes in the final implementation, but 343 has said their intent is to make zero bloom a specialized game type ala SWAT, not for standard playlists. Those are likely to see something around 85% bloom, which is hopefully the sweet spot that mitigates some of the current problems while avoiding the problems you described with zero bloom.

In the end the only real solution is for a new game to take another stab at core gun play, hopefully learning from Reach's take on it.

Custom, would-be medals suggested by folks in this thread, which Devolution is creating medals for.

Making bloom/no bloom gametypes is stupid, why would they want to further divide the online commnity.

 

[feel]

So I played bloomless Reach.

LAWL

Whiners have a lot to answer for.

the Classic settings zerobloom customs are by far the greatest MP gameplay Reach can offer right now in my and many other people's opinion.

 

[Tashi]

I really think zero bloom would be fine if the DMR was just 2x zoom.

I still dislike the idea of gimping the DMR.

 

[Stinkles]

Making bloom/no bloom gametypes is stupid, why would they want to further divide the online commnity.

SWAT doesn't divide the online community. Rockets doesn't. CTF doesn't. People learn and understand from context. As long as there's clarity and shared understanding.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

I'd be up for some HaloGaf horde mode

If you don't have me yet on live, my tag is Robbert014

 

[Barrow Roll]

Making bloom/no bloom gametypes is stupid, why would they want to further divide the online commnity.

You're right, just do away with vanilla Reach.

No, this isn't a joke post.

 

[thezerofire]

So I played bloomless Reach.

LAWL

Whiners have a lot to answer for.

So do you have some thought-out criticism or anything to add to the discussion at all?

 

[Barrow Roll]

I'd be up for some HaloGaf horde mode

If you don't have me yet on live, my tag is Robbert014

Did you try adding me a few times? I think I declined the FR because I didn't know who it was. Oops!

 

[bobs...onGaf]

So I played bloomless Reach.

LAWL

Whiners have a lot to answer for.

Your laughing about the whiners ever so slightly improving the game? Dont worry Shake the real effects of all the bitching about bloom wont be felt until Halo 4 but it will be glorious. Until then you can play a slightly improved version of Reach.

 

[neoism]

Customs anyone? we only have 3 people so far lol

sorry for bailing.. <3 good games Also Damn devo your fuckin good.

 

[feel]

You're right, just do away with vanilla Reach.

No, this isn't a joke post.

That would only hurt the Classic/Nobloom side, because they would need to make it appealing to the fans of Vanilla (who like AAs, bloom, very slow base movement with sprint). I'd rather they just make the two sides kickass separately without hurting each type of gameplay's potential

Spoiler

and then in Halo 4 just wipe the stupid Reach style clean from the face of the earth and make the whole thing feel like the original trilogy with some fun new twists that don't hurt the basics

 

[RBK]

SWAT doesn't divide the online community. Rockets doesn't. CTF doesn't. People learn and understand from context. As long as there's clarity and shared understanding.

If they make no bloom playlists, it will.

 

[Crucio]

First game today in Multi Team Headhunter: 35 Precision kills. Great new challenge, awesome.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I really think zero bloom would be fine if the DMR was just 2x zoom.

That would have made me very, very happy.

Again, hopefully a lesson Halo 4 learns.

 

[Sai-kun]

If they make no bloom playlists, it will.

How? Because once I play no bloom I'm never gonna touch another playlist? Meh. Maybe, but I highly doubt it.

 

[TheOddOne]

Letters never ceases to amaze me with the gifs. Good show, sir!

 

[Account Attempt #4]

If they make no bloom playlists, it will.

Classic ++ won't divide the community. It will unite it

Spoiler

for a few weeks at least

Edit: Also, would someone mind posting a link to the newest GAF Zero BS custom settings please(with shield pop)? Thanks in advance and sorry if it's been posted recently, I didn't see it.

 

[xxxstylzxxx]

If they make no bloom playlists, it will.

Are you implying that majority of players in MM will swarm to the no bloom playlists thus significantly cutting in to the overall vanilla Reach population? If by chance your assumption is correct (Although I seriously doubt that really will be the case) wouldn't that be a strong indication of the general dissatisfaction with Reach's initial core gameplay mechanics?

 

[Shake Appeal]

So do you have some thought-out criticism or anything to add to the discussion at all?

There is a long post from me somewhere, probably in OT1, labouring to make complainers understand that changing one variable in an otherwise designed experience will have unintended consequences and be generally terrible (e.g., headshots through shields).

I am not a particular fan of bloom. Neither do I hate it. But I said all along that taking it out would make the game even less like 'Halo' than it already was. Every mechanic, every system, every variable, has to be considered with every other in mind. You build the game without bloom from the start, fine. But you can't just yank it out. It's like changing the way one of the pieces moves in chess.

The bloomless pistol is like playing some weirdly unsatisfying version of CoD, honestly, only you have to reload more often. It's comically overpowered. Shit is like one of the repeaters in Red Dead Redemption. I was just slamming the trigger and laughing the whole game.

 

[kylej]

alright, Global was taking his sweet time so I capped Snipedown goosing the Sudds last night. I don't know if anyone else finds this stuff funny but I think it's hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsk-PoyWKUw

 

[Domino Theory]

Was it me or was there no bleed through going on in that ZB montage?

 

[Farooq]

There is a long post from me somewhere, probably in OT1, labouring to make complainers understand that changing one variable in an otherwise designed experience will have unintended consequences and be generally terrible (e.g., headshots through shields).

I am not a particular fan of bloom. Neither do I hate it. But I said all along that taking it out would make the game even less like 'Halo' than it already was. Every mechanic, every system, every variable, has to be considered with every other in mind. You build the game without bloom from the start, fine. But you can't just yank it out. It's like changing the way one of the pieces moves in chess.

The bloomless pistol is like playing some weirdly unsatisfying version of CoD, honestly, only you have to reload more often. It's comically overpowered. Shit is like one of the repeaters in Red Dead Redemption. I was just slamming the trigger and laughing the whole game.

Well you can remove the pistol from the sandbox and have the DMR as your utility weapon.

5 shots with the DMR seems appropriate and I don't see how it negatively effects the primary components in the rest of the sandbox.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I see now that the bloom that everything in the game was designed with in mind has been removed that people are now saying we need to 'fix' the scopes on ranged weapons to compensate. Well, kids, if you 'fix' that, most people are going to find ranged combat highly frustrating and many of the maps will be broken: you will then need to make them smaller so that the ranges and sight lines make sense. 'Fix' those problems, though, and the jump distance and run speed will be relatively broken because the space they operate within has changed. So next you'll have to 'fix' those. But now players move too slowly relative to how quickly people can aim! Better 'fix' the guns to be less accurate... hmmm, perhaps we could add some sort of 'bloom' effect...

Bungie should crowdsource all their design. That way the community would only have themselves to blame.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Here's one thing I wish Reach had (and hope Halo 4 could implement):

Automatically updating your default gametypes for customs.

Right now if you want to play CTF customs, you can:
A) Play the version on the disc (without the fixed "Flag is away" messages)
B) Go into matchmaking and save the fixed gametype
C) Find a link to someone's fileshare with the fixed gametype

How I wish it would work:
1. You select a CTF gametype in the Custom Games menu.
2. A popup message appears: "Do you want to check for the latest revision?" A - Yes.
3. The game then checks the fileshare server for the latest official CTF gametype, the version used in matchmaking. (Obviously there are different ones for 1-flag, Stockpile, etc.)
4. It saves it to your hard drive for future offline use, replacing the disc version on the gametype selection screen (which you can always roll back to by deleting the updated file).

Same for other gametypes. That way we wouldn't have to manually download them every time a Megalo update is pushed out (or whatever system Halo 4 will use).

As it stands now we're going to have to manually download CTF, Assault, etc. variants with the armor lock and active camo nerfs. Which I'm perfectly happy to do; I'm happy they're being updated I just wish it was easier.

 

[Syracuse022]

How? Because once I play no bloom I'm never gonna touch another playlist? Meh. Maybe, but I highly doubt it.

I mean, I might not. But I touch Reach playlists so rarely these days that, in my case, they'd be bolstering the community anyways.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Crap my 360 froze

 

[thezerofire]

There is a long post from me somewhere, probably in OT1, labouring to make complainers understand that changing one variable in an otherwise designed experience will have unintended consequences and be generally terrible (e.g., headshots through shields).

I am not a particular fan of bloom. Neither do I hate it. But I said all along that taking it out would make the game even less like 'Halo' than it already was. Every mechanic, every system, every variable, has to be considered with every other in mind. You build the game without bloom from the start, fine. But you can't just yank it out. It's like changing the way one of the pieces moves in chess.

The bloomless pistol is like playing some weirdly unsatisfying version of CoD, honestly, only you have to reload more often. It's comically overpowered. Shit is like one of the repeaters in Red Dead Redemption. I was just slamming the trigger and laughing the whole game.

More than one variable has been changed. Give the GAF gametype a shot. There's a lot more going on than just no bloom. And besides, no one said it was completely fixed.

I see now that the bloom that everything in the game was designed with in mind has been removed that people are now saying we need to 'fix' the scopes on ranged weapons to compensate. Well, kids, if you 'fix' that, most people are going to find ranged combat highly frustrating and many of the maps will be broken: you will then need to make them smaller so that the ranges and sight lines make sense. 'Fix' those problems, though, and the jump distance and run speed will be relatively broken because the space they operate within has changed. So next you'll have to 'fix' those. But now players move too slowly relative to how quickly people can aim! Better 'fix' the guns to be less accurate... hmmm, perhaps we could add some sort of 'bloom' effect...

Bungie should crowdsource all their design. That way the community would only have themselves to blame.

so wait, you're blaming the population for things that are broken about the game?

 

[Shake Appeal]

so wait, you're blaming the population for things that are broken about the game?

Nah, you're just bad at reading.

 

[Tashi]

Nah, you're just bad at reading.

:lol

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I see now that the bloom that everything in the game was designed with in mind has been removed that people are now saying we need to 'fix' the scopes on ranged weapons to compensate. Well, kids, if you 'fix' that, most people are going to find ranged combat highly frustrating and many of the maps will be broken: you will then need to make them smaller so that the ranges and sight lines make sense. 'Fix' those problems, though, and the jump distance and run speed will be relatively broken because the space they operate within has changed. So next you'll have to 'fix' those. But now players move too slowly relative to how quickly people can aim! Better 'fix' the guns to be less accurate... hmmm, perhaps we could add some sort of 'bloom' effect...

Bungie should crowdsource all their design. That way the community would only have themselves to blame.

Yep those are the things that are generally wrong with Reach. Maybe if Reach didnt have those problems from the start we would be playing the game rather than complaining about it.

Your wrong about the last fix by the way. If people move too slow to react to fast guns, then rather than nerf the guns increase the player speed. = Halo.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Headdesk.

 

[electricpirate]

We'll see how it goes in the final implementation, but 343 has said their intent is to make zero bloom a specialized game type ala SWAT, not for standard playlists. Those are likely to see something around 85% bloom, which is hopefully the sweet spot that mitigates some of the current problems while avoiding the problems you described with zero bloom.

Are there any good resources for the full set of changes that 343 is planning to implement into matchmaking? I haven't really payed attention to anything halo, or hell, vidja game related in about 6 months as my wife and I just bought our first place, and I'm still all in the newness of that.

Before I left, I thought there wasn't any big game play changes revealed, now I come back and I find a TU and crazy custom no bloom gametypes.

PS. Great job on the singleplayer writeup. I didn't agree with big chunks of it, but it read like a really smart postmortem, and I enjoyed it greatly.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Headdesk.

Yeah, thats what I did when I read your post. Your basically complaining about an optional gametype. Sure it may not be perfect but if its implimented well in matchmaking it will be a lot better than defualt Reach. Really you should be moaning about vanilla Reach, not about the attempts to fix it.

I want Halo 4 to be a good game. If a few unbalanced Reach fixes are the basepoint to that then thats fine by me.

I did have a laugh about the comparison of the Pistol to the RDR Pistols, that was spot on, but its not really a problem as you can set the gametype to not include Pistols. Really the ball is in 343's court, and while it wont be perfect the matchmaking playlists have the potential to be pretty good.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I see now that the bloom that everything in the game was designed with in mind has been removed that people are now saying we need to 'fix' the scopes on ranged weapons to compensate. Well, kids, if you 'fix' that, most people are going to find ranged combat highly frustrating and many of the maps will be broken: you will then need to make them smaller so that the ranges and sight lines make sense. 'Fix' those problems, though, and the jump distance and run speed will be relatively broken because the space they operate within has changed. So next you'll have to 'fix' those. But now players move too slowly relative to how quickly people can aim! Better 'fix' the guns to be less accurate... hmmm, perhaps we could add some sort of 'bloom' effect...

Bungie should crowdsource all their design. That way the community would only have themselves to blame.

This has been discussed at length, but people won't find the ranged combat frustrating. It wasn't in Halo 1, 2 or 3, when we had 2x scopes on the primary weapons. Many of the Reach maps are damaged or broken by the DMR's range, particularly but not exclusively Hemhorrage. Reach doubled the range of infantry combat with the DMR, compared to Halo 1, 2 and 3, and it's quite apparant that the maps were not designed with that kind of range in mind.

And we're coming up on a set of six new DLC maps getting released...six maps from past Halo games, which all featured shorter engagement distances and a 2x scope weapon. They were not designed with the DMR in mind. (Actually, Ridgeline looks quite tweaked, so hopefully it plays well.)

I think the extreme range of the DMR is a problem. It is not a problem that will be addressed in Reach, so there's no point lamenting it further; it is however, something I hope is addressed in Halo 4, returning Halo back to closer average engagement distances.

 

[KidA Seven]

I still dislike the idea of gimping the DMR.

Same here brah.

 

[Account Attempt #4]

I'm trying to keep in mind that 343i (the words of our savior) has not in fact tried to fix Reach with this additional functionality. It's just an option to let those fans, who choose to use it, enjoy the classic feel of past Halo games. (Although I count the AA changes as fixes, personally.)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29346185&postcount=687


EDIT \/\/:

I like the V2 GAF settings but like Devo said some people really could eat shots.

Not sure if my settings or Booshka's settings are better.

Post link to file share, please?

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Did you try adding me a few times? I think I declined the FR because I didn't know who it was. Oops!

Yep, you broke my heart 2 times in a row :lol

Spoiler

I added you

 

[wwm0nkey]

I like the V2 GAF settings but like Devo said some people really could eat shots.

Not sure if my settings or Booshka's settings are better.

 

[Karl2177]

I hope that 343 throws a no-bloom variant in the SWAT playlist. I played one with a couple friends, and it felt good when my shots went where I told them to go.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

There is a long post from me somewhere, probably in OT1, labouring to make complainers understand that changing one variable in an otherwise designed experience will have unintended consequences and be generally terrible (e.g., headshots through shields).

Not to pile on, but this is a result of damage bleed-through and has nothing to do with bloom.

I imagine the Zero Bloom Slayer we see in the Beta Hoppers will not have bleed-through.

I wouldn't be surprised if bleed-through was limited to Classic gametypes only, as far as matchmaking is concerned.

I see it eventually settling to this:
Classic - 85% bloom, bleed-through
Zero Bloom Slayer - 0% bloom, NO bleed-through
Vanilla Reach - 85% bloom, NO bleed-through

 

[MrBig]

I liked how Bungie snuck in 7 occasionally, but 343 is really going overboard with their number