Devolution
Member
Ramirez said:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
stephen08 said:
Yea, but if you get a couple people crouching, the pinging turns into donging. Really it just restricts the movement and results in a lot of turtling, and flat out domination if the teams are uneven. People have brought it up before, but maps like Valhalla would have been really bad if people could sit in the bases and perfectly hit people up on the hill, Coag worked fine with the Halo 2 BR...
Did you guys when that last game Devo? My Xbox froze. :\
Devolution
Member
Ramirez said:
We just called it a night, there was no game =p. And I agree, I don't know about slow kills either, I ping people pretty quick on big team maps.
Well ideally the thing to prevent that from happening is vehicles. Unfortunately the Sniper and DMR are both too effective at taking out vehicles and I believe that is where the problem lies. Honestly this was even an issue with BRs in 3 and 2 the only difference was instead of mitigating bloom to get a deserved shot on an opponent you rolled the dice with spread and bullet travel time.
Perhaps this is just me talking but how is fighting back from the base to hill on Valhalla a bad thing? Nothing was more annoying than having an entire enemy team on that hill while you are stuck waiting on sniper to respawn to try and clear them out only to have a random grab it and waste it. DMR would have made that at least some kind of a fight.
Perhaps this is just me talking but how is fighting back from the base to hill on Valhalla a bad thing? Nothing was more annoying than having an entire enemy team on that hill while you are stuck waiting on sniper to respawn to try and clear them out only to have a random grab it and waste it. DMR would have made that at least some kind of a fight.
stephen08 said:
It would also give people very little reason to leave their base in objective games. People turtle enough in these games as it is, giving them a weapon that can shoot all the way across a map only makes it worse.
It also makes gun fights boring and frustrating all in one. Say you're fighting some guy on the Valhalla hill, you kill him, but in the mean time you're getting pinged from the base as well and die from people who were sitting a mile away.
Personal preference I guess, but I feel the range just kills the flow of games on larger maps.
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=23357027&player=chaos nul
Look at this beautiful betrayal of me. #sogood
Look at this beautiful betrayal of me. #sogood
heckfu said:
thezerofire
Banned
it's not like you had to stand in the base. the front mancannon wasn't the only way out. there are plenty of ways to flank on that mapstephen08 said:
thezerofire
Banned
the difference is that Team Objective doesn't have Big Team maps in it.FyreWulff said:
Devolution
Member
FyreWulff said:
Clearly they should just have long range weapons on the map for people to pick up (which they inevitably will), and not spawn people with them to give everyone a fair fight. I like your idea much better.
I like having a DMR on small/medium sized maps, and think the games play better. On large maps though, it does make the game stagnate with all the cross map firing from both teams. In most of the GAF customs that I have played there has been mostly DMR standoffs. I specifically remember a Boneyard game that I pulled host and I was just hitting people from everywhere, dropping shields, 5 shotting people cross map. Flag scores were essentially a fluke. I love the range and precision of the DMR, but I understand how it really cripples Big maps, especially with how they are so open.FyreWulff said:
Ramirez said:
At some point if a team is just plain better then that's going to happen regardless of weapon ranges. And it did happen on Valhalla many times. Part of it as well is map design. If you give people a more effective weapon then you need to give them more ways to move about the map. You have to be insane to run down the middle of Hemorrhage. A good BTB map for Reach IMO is something like Breakpoint, Highlands and I expect Headlong. Open areas for vehicles to maneuver but a lot of infantry only space.
This is starting to get completely detached from the point though so I'll ground it by saying that I would much rather have a weapon I can use to my best of skill to engage opponents at all feasible ranges. The BR just didn't have that.
Devolution
Member
stephen08 said:
Who said they were in the middle of Hemorrhage? They have to leave the cave at some point. And pinging people in the rocks is easy.
Breakpoint games are boring. So are Highlands games.
Another example is Standoff, which I think was pretty clearly designed around the BR's range. The, um, standoffs across the rocks on either side of center were perfectly spaced for BR shootouts. With the DMR, those same kind of shootouts would take place with players on top of their bases; everyone on between (including all the way out on the sides) would get demolished by guys up on top of the bases. The map would be just plain broken.Ramirez said:
I don't really understand why the DMR was given a 3x scope rather than the traditional 2x. It would still have a huge range and large clip. I'm guessing it was to further differentiate it from the Magnum, but at this point it's pretty clear that was a mistake to do so in that way.
(Deus Ex update: It gets better after it actually begins, but is still a very clunky game. Reminds me a bit of Fallout 3 in its total lack of elegance, but in how it's also inviting me to do things I very much like doing. Namely sneaking around bonking guys and hiding their bodies, exploring, and looting. But there's a whole lot of questionable game mechanics and rough edges standing in the way of the satisfaction that comes from those things. Just rescued some hostages.)
Devolution said:
I like it better when there's only one or two DMRs total on a map so they get treated like the power weapon they are instead of a crutch like they're handed out in Team Objective as it is right now. Team Objective is just another playlist with new gametypes to pander to the casual slayer crowd that isn't interested in playing it anyway. The only 100% Objective playlist we have anymore is Premium Battle and that's now 100% DMR starts with the exception of Invasion. There's no choice, just derping around with 100% DMRs with people staying in their bases because the sniper rifle spawns 3 feet away from where they start on Highlands with no need to go actually acquire the weapon that can shoot across the entire map instantly.
The only way to fix TO at this point is to just delete it and make it a once-in-a-while playlist that rolls around. I just can't wait to play DMR start Beaver Creek in TO! (No I don't). The playerbase has rejected it and the changes Bungie have made to it post launch have NEVER been good, in any of the online Halo games. Always felt like they just gave up and made it super hardcore because they figure they won't be touching it again. Because they never DID touch it again after making it a trainwreck.
If you wanted a fair fight maybe you should have won the battle and secured the DMRs in the first place. But I guess people would rather respawn with a long range weapon so they don't have to worry about map control since you can just cut down the flag runner off-spawn. Wipe out an entire team so you can push for bomb? Doesn't matter, they'll be back in 5-10 seconds and will be able to engage you from halfway across the map with no consequences for their bad decisions or lack of cohesion.
In Slayer spawning everyone with a DMR is fine, whatever, there's nothing to hold so you should probably just spawn with whatever. In Objective, DMR start has a lot more implications and it's a damn shame that it was forced upon everyone instead of just maknig it a damn option or weighting it more heavily. I don't want to play Classic Touch Return just to get AR start objective. But then again, Barrow Roll convinced me to play Team Objective one more time and the first lobby in was the other team screaming to vote for 2 Flag Slayer and that's what we played. That shit should be an Action Sack gametype. Team Objective is dead to me. I'd rather play zero bloom NR SWAT than slayer in Team Objective. They pulled the same shit when they forced and weighted Team Throwback gametypes into Social Skirmish in Halo 3 matchmaking, which made no sense because of any Social Skirmish players actually wanted to play Throwback gametypes, they would have played in the playlist. But for some reason it seemed like a good idea to implement gametypes from a failed playlist into one that was reasonably succesful because I guess it just had too many players.
Seriously, all they had to do was remove the AAs that didn't work well for TO (Drop shield, for example) and then just leave the gametypes at the AR starts/DMR starts mix that it was at and everything would have just been fine.
Devolution said:
Statements like this aren't conducive to good discussion about the game. Elaborate on what you mean by "boring".
My point about Hemorrhage was that that map was not designed for the DMR. I was elaborating on how the map design goes hand in hand with the weapon's prowess.
Devolution
Member
stephen08 said:
There is no reason to leave the bases on highlands. People turtle. No activity. Breakpoint plays out the same way most of the time because of the chokepoints. Then there are the people who just sit on top of the mountain with power weapons (on either offense or defense). Offense tries to get flag, gets wrecked by the defense (because there are places to camp around the flag); rinse, repeat.
We played them today in customs and the problems with the maps were pretty evident when the teams are pretty even and good. Both maps rarely have competitive firefights, hence boring.
Every time I go back to Halo 3, I realize how much I miss the BR. Regardless of the range of either gun, the BR is just so much more fun to fire. The 3-shot burst is so satisfying, and 4 shot kills just make the game so much smoother and allow less time for the shenannigans that plague Reach's combat.stephen08 said:
Honestly, I think I would like the DMR much more if it had 3 shot bursts, even if it still was a 5 burst kill.
I just really hope the Forward Unto Dawn is loaded with BRs and Choppers.
Booshka said:
I actually meant to say "not designed with the DMR in mind". Pretty key word to omit when I was typing
.Devolution said:
I just took a look using the game viewer. You stayed on one side the entire game despite your team never capping a point. There wasn't incentive to leave the base? Even though leaving the base was the only way to win the game? To me, it sounds like you are getting bogged down in the most effective way to play that you are ignoring the most fun way to play. Especially considering that we are talking about a custom game here.
blamite said:
Yeah I can see just preferring a weapon's style over another. But let's be accurate while a 4 shot kill was technically possible in 3 it really was a 5 shot kill the majority of the time. For a 4 shot kill to happen every bullet from every shot had to hit, and the headshot had to be on the final bullet which had the most spread.
I do agree about the Chopper though. I really miss that vehicle
KidA Seven
Member
FyreWulff said:
DMR is not a power weapon. It loses to various weapons at both long and short range rather easily and can lose at mid range to rockets and sniper depending on the skill of the other user. Furthermore, it cannot kill in 1 shot.
It's not a crutch either seeing as how you actually need aiming skill in order to succeed with it. In objective, it's not really wise to sit back at your base. You invite the other team to constantly attack your base putting you on the defensive the entire game. In objective, you're supposed to go to their half of the base and gain map control to run objective and also spawn trap.
FyreWulff said:
Except that securing the battle in the first place requires you to shoot with an AR, which decreases the gap in skill between users. Actually, map control is a lot harder to maintain with DMR starts because the team that didn't win the initial battle is now on defense and has a competent weapon that can fight back. Also, here's a tip: once you get them all dead communicate with your team to predict and locate the other team off spawn to further pin them down and not get a look a the user running the objective.
It seems like you just want objective to be easy for the attackers.
Devolution
Member
stephen08 said:
I already know how fun it is to trek around highlands, finally get the opposing base if you're not taken out before then, only to get killed by rockets, shotty or sniper. The side areas aren't all that great either considering someone can just warp behind you on your way over to the other base. Besides I leave the base as blue, lo and behold already getting pinged by DMR fire from across the way, just go back in. Hence the whole point of what we're talking about here: the range of the DMR encourages turtling.
KidA Seven said:
Both the DMR and the BR are power weapons and should always be treated as such. Available sparingly.
Learn how to burst fire AR instead of holding trigger and pointing and you'll always beat another AR user. The AR is not one dimensional. I out-AR DMR users who make the wrong decision on when to use a DMR. Learn AR burst fire and love it. With proper AR and DMR usage you can be unstoppable. With proper AR usage you'll be able to stay alive while acquiring power weapons such as a DMR for usage to push the other team back. Well, since DMR starts are everywhere in Objective, you don't need weapon or map control anymore, but that's the general idea.
I want objective to play like objective and not Team Slayer, and that's about as far as I'm going to go with that. AR starts doesn't make it easier for the attackers. A properly positioned and communicative defense will always win in AR starts. In DMR starts you just have to get lucky that the other team spawns far enough away this time when you've killed them. There is no cleverness or strategy in DMR start objectives, just brute force and bloodbaths. I like my brute force once in a while but now I don't even have the option for matchmaking cleverness. My problem is not with DMR Start objectives as a standalone experience, I voted for them once in a while, but the fact that the original, OTHER experience was completely deleted for no apparent rhyme or reason when the population should have both available, like they did before the last TO update.
I would be just as pissed if they deleted normal SWAT and left us only SWAT Magnums in Team SWAT. The two experiences were just fine co-existing in the playlist. At this point they should just rm -rf Team Objective and roll the gametypes into BTB and Premium Battle and nobody will notice the difference because they'll still be DMR start.
Devolution
Member
stephen08 said:
They haven't left their base, you can ping people from the left side near the cave if you're red. And from the left side near one of the buildings if you're blue. Plus there is a blue spawn that's right in front of the base instead of inside it that red has no problem seeing.
Barrow Roll
Member
Huh, when did I do that. I only have 20 posts (21 now) in this thread.FyreWulff said:
Barrow Roll said:
*pulls up Bungie.net history to find last TO game*
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/GameStats.aspx?gameid=762743014&player=FyreWulff
Shit, I think I mis-remembered Barlow as Barrow.
And now I'm giggling at thinking of the phrase "Barlow Roll". I need to go to sleep.
HiredN00bs
Member
I like having a super-versatile weapon like the DMR, especially as a spawning weapon. BTB has problems though, and actually caring about such problems is new to me, because I've avoided Big Team like the plague since Halo 2.
There are a lot of tools at our disposal with the gametype editor and with Forge, and drastic steps may have to be taken. I'm thinking about things like limiting weapon sets, playing with shields, health, weapon damage, and maybe even vehicle invinciblity (used intelligently with certain vehicle sets).
Can vehicle damge resistance be tweaked with the current editor beyond default/indestructible?
There are a lot of tools at our disposal with the gametype editor and with Forge, and drastic steps may have to be taken. I'm thinking about things like limiting weapon sets, playing with shields, health, weapon damage, and maybe even vehicle invinciblity (used intelligently with certain vehicle sets).
Can vehicle damge resistance be tweaked with the current editor beyond default/indestructible?
Devolution said:
That just isn't true. You cannot see the base of the enemy team from either of those locations well enough to describe the kind of stalemate you are describing. Besides that once they leave to go to the sides of the map they are no longer in their base.
In any case, I haven't had any experience even close to what you are describing on Highlands or Breakpoint. Certainly far from every game playing out that same way like you initially stated. So I am going to have to go ahead and just flat out disagree with the assertion that they are boring.
Devolution
Member
HiredN00bs said:
More routes to the opposing base in which you can't be pinged from a distance or wrecked by a vehicle would be nice too. People really hated containment but that trench in the middle was a pretty good idea that could work well in DMR heavy BTB.
Devolution
Member
stephen08 said:
When I'm red I just chill next to the cave on our side and pick off everyone on blue team who comes from the left, out of the front of blue (trying to get to their cave) or on their spawn in front with either dmr or sniper. If you haven't seen anyone do the same, I don't know what to tell you.
Oh they do it, but it's not an unbeatable strategy nor does it lead to consistent stalemates. Rockets, Sniper, hell even just going around the other side all avoid that problem. If you have a whole team on defense it gets a little tiresome but I hardly fault the weapon for that. That's just people wimping out. That happened long before we had DMRs.
Please, DMR fights would never even happen in a map as awful as Standoff. It was a Warthog and laser spam map. BR fights? Once every 100 games if you're lucky.
The blame keeps getting put on the weapon when it really should be placed on the base player speed. It's like a sore thumb. Why is everyone ignoring that?
The blame keeps getting put on the weapon when it really should be placed on the base player speed. It's like a sore thumb. Why is everyone ignoring that?
Zeouterlimits
Member
EU West Version, right? ;_;Sai-kun said: