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Hannibal S3 |OT| Man Destroys God. Hannibal Eats Man. Hannibal Inherits The Earth.

Oof, lots of mixed opinions. Was this episode more like the prior?

It's hard to say what the episode is like without giving away what the episode is really. The most vague manner in which I can describe in answering your question is that it is not that similar to previous episodes in the Red Dragon arc, and it occurs over a more focused time period than any of the previous episodes in the series. Most of the differences in opinions centre more around how the episode was executed than the structure of the episode.
 

kirblar

Member
I enjoyed the episode quite a bit. Can't say I had any major problems with it. It had some very funny moments and sone really disturbing ones. Can't wait to see how they close this out.

As for the controversial elements,
Lounds survives the burning in the book too. Although he eventually dies from it. Can't say I have a problem with Chilton making it either. The guy is a king weasel and tends to always makes it through. Wonder if we'll see him at all next episode, or learn anything else about his fate.

I do wonder why they went with Chilton and not Lounds, or even Bloom. Did Fuller feel having a woman in the scene would have fundamentally changed it too much?
They've been killing female regulars left and right on the show- I think they just didn't want to make it so many in a row.
 

Showaddy

Member
Jeeeeesus when
Francis popped the teeth in and started crawling over the furniture towards Chilton... Armitage is superb.

Bit disappointed at the ending though unless there's a twist next week.
 
Goddamn,
Chilton got screwed hard. Like seriously, he's had nothing but bad luck since Will entered his life.

And holy shit
when Armitage put in the teeth and crawled over the sofa. Serious chills man. Goddamn.
 

UrbanRats

Member
So i'm stuck at episode 3 (i'll binge it when i have time, hopefully before September) but how much till the end of the season? And how was it so far?
 
Oh and LOL at
Hannibal slurping up Chilton's lip. I didn't notice during my first watchthrough, but goddamn, it was so hilarious. Seeing his face afterwards was just incredible.
 
Yeah, this episode was not good.

It was plotted like paint-by-numbers. For all its (as usual) consistently enchanting body horror, the episode really felt like it was going through the motions to
find a way to unhinge Dolarhyde
at any cost, no matter how illogical.

It didn't feel organic the way that the
"trap" set for Hannibal in "Mizumono" did. I guess that's what happens when you only half-heartedly betray the source material.
Fuller's at his best when his subversions are free to explode every which way, not just pop every now and again like in this episode.

But the finale's looking incredible at least
grin.gif
 
Gillian Anderson is still feeling the same agony as me regarding season 3. Barely holding together and fighting the sleep with every sentence spoken.
 
What's with all the negativity? I thought that was superb. The tension building for about 10 minutes straight in that one scene. I was on the edge of my seat. And then the end, holy fuck!
 

KarmaCow

Member
Gillian Anderson is still feeling the same agony as me regarding season 3. Barely holding together and fighting the sleep with every sentence spoken.

I thought her stilted way of speaking was her trying be measured and choosing her words very carefully around Hannibal because she knows she hanging by a very thin thread but now it just seems like a weird character choice.

Though in regards to this episode
it still sorta makes sense in her sessions with Will because she's unsure if he's already consumed by Hannibal's will.
 
What's with all the negativity? I thought that was superb. The tension building for about 10 minutes straight in that one scene. I was on the edge of my seat. And then the end, holy fuck!
I see it working much more effectively from the perspective that
the FBI is the most useless organizational body in existence.

However, the show hasn't really operated that way, and instead did a pretty good job showing how
the FBI's hubris crumbled under the weight of Hannibal's cunning. It somehow made it look realistic that all these brilliant people not named Will Graham would make terrible decisions based on Hannibal's subterfuge.
With Hannibal's intentions and impulses now laid utterly bare, this episode just seemed to drip with plot-dictated stupidity. I mean, even if you take the most cynical view that they
purposely dangled Chilton like a carrot (and the self-aware understanding of Dolarhyde's views on "pets" implied that they did), why not equip him with the same SWAT-level protection that Will was afforded?

After all, enraging Dolarhyde was the method, but catching Dolarhyde was the goal. The episode seemed to forget the latter for the convenience of throwing in the iconic moment from the book.
 

TheOddOne

Member
New episode today:
Season 3: Season 12 "The Number of the Beast Is 666..."

The FBI enlists the help of Dr. Fredrick Chilton in hope of drawing Francis Dolarhyde into an ambush; Will's empathy for Dolarhyde impacts his psyche.
'merica!
 

Vitanimus

Member
so do we all agree that bedelia is the second best character of the season y/n

her character development is so interesting across the three seasons we've been graced with so far:
  • psychiatrist of a serial killer with a past
  • anticipates and evades serial killer
  • willingly chooses to escape with serial killer
  • "participates" in murders and then lies about being forcibly drugged
  • eventually learn that she's basically just as bad as hannibal, but has more restraint
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
so do we all agree that bedelia is the second best character of the season y/n

her character development is so interesting across the three seasons we've been graced with so far:
  • psychiatrist of a serial killer with a past
  • anticipates and evades serial killer
  • willingly chooses to escape with serial killer
  • "participates" in murders and then lies about being forcibly drugged
  • eventually learn that she's basically just as bad as hannibal, but has more restraint

This screams set-up for an S4 with her as the villain, if they couldn't pull off the SOTL rights.
 
so do we all agree that bedelia is the second best character of the season y/n

her character development is so interesting across the three seasons we've been graced with so far:
  • psychiatrist of a serial killer with a past
  • anticipates and evades serial killer
  • willingly chooses to escape with serial killer
  • "participates" in murders and then lies about being forcibly drugged
  • eventually learn that she's basically just as bad as hannibal, but has more restraint

You are forgetting the lobotomy Hannibal performed on her between season 2 & 3.
Poor Bedelia.
 

Alpende

Member
I got some
Bob, from Twin Peaks, vibes when Dolarhyde started crawling towards Chilton. Chilton has been trough the grinder, it's amazing he's still alive.
 

Solo

Member
What a weird season. That bizarro land first half, then an amazing start to the Red Dragon stuff, only to falter again in these past 2 episodes. Hopefully the finale is good.
 

awp69

Member
What a weird season. That bizarro land first half, then an amazing start to the Red Dragon stuff, only to falter again in these past 2 episodes. Hopefully the finale is good.

Definitely the weakest season.

I may be in the minority but I actually found the first half of the season to be par with the first two seasons, with the the episodes from the Hannibal vs. Jack round 2 to the Verger massacre to be amongst the best of the series.

The first few Red Dragon episodes were good, but I've found the arc as a whole to be a little disappointing despite Armitage's outstanding performance.

Haven't seen tonight's episode yet, but whatever I think, I still have faith that Fuller will deliver a great finale.
 
I'm 2 episodes behind this season but I'm starting to get annoyed with this show's insistence on being artistic. I feel like this season more than any prior has been obsessed with being artful. Maybe it's just me. I want to learn more about the Red Dragon rather than watch him in his attic acting like a loon. Season 2 is still the greatest but maybe that'll change.
 
We wanted Fuller to get to a season three so bad, we never stopped to ask if he SHOULD.

If I would to rank the Seasons it'd go something like this:

1.Season Two

2. Season Three

3.Season One.

Season Three isn't Fuller's Strongest work But I think it still stands on its own.

I think we should treat The Red Dragon Arc as its own season and not part of season three. That's how I look at it.
 

Blader

Member
so do we all agree that bedelia is the second best character of the season y/n

I think she kind of toes the line between odd and terrible, tbh. I liked her in S2, but this season she's just gone full tilt into these bad line reading choices (lines that aren't very good to begin with either). In a show as heightened and bizarre as this, she's kind of the most unbelievable character for me.


I'm liking the Red Dragon arc, including these last two episodes, just fine. But the whole thing does feel like a weird step back. I know it's just the nature of the story they're adapting, but it feels less about the Will/Hannibal dynamic and more about the FBI chasing a random serial killer. As uneven as the beginning of this season was, it still felt like an evolution of the Will/Hannibal story (for better or worse) and that it was growing out of what they had done, with each other and to each other, in S2. The Red Dragon arc just feels like more of a killer-of-the-week episode from S1 stretched out to six hours.
 

Moff

Member
I loved the first half in florence, it was beautiful, and appealing. just fantastic. in my opinion some of the best I have seen on TV ever, and the best part of this show.

the red dragon half is not bad, I actually didn't hate last episode, but it's just the fourth version of the story we have read/seen so far and not necessarily the best.
most importantly: the too small amount of hannibal/mikkelsen hurts the show, but that was to be expected.
 

awp69

Member
I loved the first half in florence, it was beautiful, and appealing. just fantastic. in my opinion some of the best I have seen on TV ever, and the best part of this show.

the red dragon half is not bad, I actually didn't hate last episode, but it's just the fourth version of the story we have read/seen so far and not necessarily the best.
most importantly: the too small amount of hannibal/mikkelsen hurts the show, but that was to be expected.

I agree. The first half may not be quite the best part of the show to me, but it was still fantastic.

What made the whole series special was the Hannibal/Will dynamic.

I don't hate the Red Dragon arc and maybe I'll be blown away by the season finale. But in some ways, I think the mid-season end, with the Will/Hannibal breakup and Hannibal turning himself in to keep sure Will wouldn't be able to escape his grasp, would have been a perfect ending for the whole thing.

Don't get me wrong. I still would love if Hannibal continues in a feature film or comes back in some form. I just hope that if it does I almost would rather see more original stories focusing on Will and Hannibal.
 

Moff

Member
yeah I wanted to add that myself.
seeing the red dragon arc made me feel at peace with the end of the show. I don't need fullers SOTL.
I am sure I would have watched and liked it, but with hannibal in his cell all the time it would have been as underwhelming as the red dragon arc and I seriously doubt it could have reached the movie.
 
If I would to rank the Seasons it'd go something like this:

1.Season Two

2. Season Three

3.Season One.

Season Three isn't Fuller's Strongest work But I think it still stands on its own.

I think we should treat The Red Dragon Arc as its own season and not part of season three. That's how I look at it.

Whether we should or shouldn't treat the "Red Dragon" arc as its own season, I think the entire problem with this season has been that dividing it in the manner that was done was a terrible choice, and has been phenomenally detrimental to the pacing. Why was this done? Well, there are a few factors, the ratings being perhaps the most prominent factor, Fuller's love of the relationship dynamic between Will Graham and Hannibal another, and the season two finale an additional, substantial component.

In having the season two finale end the gutting of several primary characters in addition to Abigail, while Hannibal walks away freely with DuMaurier. After such a dramatic conclusion, it would have been a cheat for the show not to deal with the emotional consequences of the actions that had occurred, and how it affected everybody; to not do so would be a cheat after the magnitude of what happened. The most substantial part, however, was that Hannibal walked away. It was not possible for Fuller to jump immediately into Red Dragon so long as Hannibal had managed to escape, and they had to follow up on the promise of Hannibal being 'free'. Having set-up the Vergers, delving into the material in "Hannibal" was an understandable follow-up. Fuller himself noted that part of the reason for the split was that he felt it would begin to tread old ground if it was left as an entire season (I reject this assertion, and think that it's not really a good 'excuse' at all as there was more than enough material which could be injected to do so and create a compelling, slower build up that progressed steadily), and this is part of the reason the season was split.

The most substantial reason however, relies in what Fuller loves about the source material. As he has noted, he knew, as we all did, that season three would almost certainly be the last from the get-go. Fuller has always been clear that Red Dragon is what 'got him into' the series in the first place, and that the novel is one which holds a special place in his heart. It's the relationship between Will Graham and Hannibal that has a great appeal to him, more than anything else (i.e. more than Silence), and the show reflects this. There is absolutely no doubt that Fuller wanted to get to Red Dragon before the series ended, but this put him in quite a bind. While he wanted to get to the Red Dragon season, it obviously would not be possible to jump into this straight from the final of season two, without it being jarring and a slap in the face to the audience for ignoring the season two finale. The only way for him to get to his favourite material then becomes to place it somewhere in season three. On a related note, Red Dragon is the most notable material they have access to which they can advertise, and the only chance of the show surviving would have been to demonstrate that adapting the material they have access to is a substantial draw to an audience which had refused to watch the show. If advertising the most prominent material they have isn't enough of a draw combined with the critical appeal and high quality, and the show hadn't begun to gain viewers in anticipation for this combined with their engagement on social media, nothing would.

The problem with wanting to do the Red Dragon story to follow-up from the final of season two is substantial though, because of the pace it demands and the tone of the season. Following up from season two, things had to be extreme. We needed to get a sense of what Hannibal's life on the run was like in a 'day-to-day' fashion. We needed to establish who he is, what his life is like, and how he interacts with people. We needed to deal with the emotional reaction he has in response to the great betrayal, but also see how he has moved on from that in his relationship with Bedalia and the altered dynamic which that brings. From Hannibal's side, there needs to be a sense of the somewhat mundane life he now leads, and how he relishes in his new environment despite the longing he feels for Will Graham. What does this require? Well, a slow pace, befitting of the environment he is now in, and a variety of new characters for him to interact with, which need to gain some development. The overindulgence in the artistic and cinematic flairs the show had previously employed was absolutely befitting of the decadent life which Hannibal was leading. On the American side of things, everybody understandably is going to be in a much more unstable space, Will in particular.They all had to undergo severe changes in their lives after what had happened. While establishing a new life for everybody was not nearly as essential as it was with Hannibal, the emotional impact this reveal had on everybody, and the wounds which were inflicted, needed to be made clear, but without a 'psychiatrist present', these emotional and largely interior changes could only really be clarified through symbolism and visual touches (they could communicate to one another, sure, but there's reason to doubt these more than there is visual symbols, particularly for Will). These, again, require a rather slow pace. While they backed-down immediately on Will's interest in Hannibal dying (perhaps out of need for them to quickly rush past the development). Both of these combine to create a season that needs to be visually indulgent and heavy on symbolism to carry the emotional journey of the characters, and a slow pace to establish everything effectively.

Red Dragon, too, requires a very slow pace. A large amount of time has to pass between Hannibal being captured, and Will being forced to speak with Hannibal because of the effect that this time has on Hannibal and allows Will to have 'moved on' before being forced to return to his own special brand of addiction. There's a lot of material in relation to the Red Dragon, and they need to make both him and Reba very compelling figures. In wanting to include Hannibal a great deal in this story, when he originally is important but not nearly as prominent as he is now, they needed to proportionally boost the amount of time we spend with Dolarhyde so he isn't reduced to a 'killer of the week spread thin' and is instead one of the stars of the season. The method of investigation that is used with Dolarhyde is more grounded than what we had seen in the seasons before, and the tone therefore needs to be a more grounded nightmare to suit (the heavily nightmarish visual tone needs to survive, but Dolarhyde doesn't kill in a greatly elaborate fashion nor is he a supernatural manipulator as many of the previous killers on the show are, he's a complex individual who kills with efficiency before the horror show begins). The tone needs to be similar, yet approached differently to accurately reflect Will's state of mind (and to be fair, it had done this quite well). Will was 'out', so to speak. He escaped the nightmare, he's living a normal life, and then he needs to choose to go back into the territory and begin to plunge in (albeit more quickly than he fell in initially). Due to the story-beats which occur in Red Dragon (and must be led up to), the style of the investigation that's utilised, the characters themselves, and the insistence that Lecter would play a greater role the story needs to have time to breath. Having a number of major events happen continuously in a row, and reducing the role of the Red Dragon himself, plays a major role in thinning the importance of the case itself and doesn't allow the impact of the case (on a personal level, and on the level of fear it evokes in the surrounding communities) to hit-home; it needed time to develop and gather steam naturally.

In combining these two seasons, both of which needed time to develop, both of them fell short of their potential and have significant issues in their pacing. In the first half of the season, we were left in this bizarre scenario where events simultaneously moved too quickly (the final two/three episodes of that segment of the season) and were oddly stretched out (inconsequential push from a train, anybody?). In the second half we've had a very well executed three episodes, and two episodes which were 'mixed', and a pacing that appears to mirror the first half of the season's with a scenario where things are moving too slowly and too quickly simultaneously, things aren't being fleshed-out appropriately, and there's a real, concerning lack of momentum building, not a scenario you want going into the final of the show. Consider where we were last season; momentum built from the very first episode up to the seventh carrying on from the previous season, there was a bit of a reprieve which was necessary because of the insanity of what was happening, and then continued to grow until the end. If there's momentum in this season, I must say I am not feeling it at all.

Don't get me wrong, the show has remained enjoyable and it has produced some great episodes (I enjoy the Florence chapter, I enjoy the opening of the Red Dragon chapter), but the decision to split the season with two storylines that both required a very purposeful pace has been a fundamentally flawed one, I feel. The show could have worked with either storyline as the focus for the season, but it has not worked to have the season be scattershot and at odds with itself. Last season worked with a bit of a split only because things were escalating at an unsustainable level; that has not been the case this season at all. With thirteen episodes, if Fuller wanted to just get to Red Dragon this season, he should have just ignored or greatly reduced the Florence section (better yet, he shouldn't have had Hannibal escape in the second season final, he should have just been caught by the EMT because he chose to wait for Will to appear and confront him rather than escape). With thirteen episodes, if he wanted to do the Florence section, he should not have done Red Dragon. He shouldn't have just adapted both because it was the only chance he had if it was going to greatly reduce the impact of either storyline and/or the show's quality; it would have been better to get a fantastic season that leaves us pondering what could have been done if only they had an extra season, than a season that leaves us glad the show will be unable to tarnish The Silence of the Lambs. I think people are aware that they are two 'chapters', the issue is just that they don't jive well together.


---


EDIT: I got a bit carried away there. In terms of my own rating for the seasons:

Season Two > Season One > Season Three.

In relation to enjoying Bedalia's development this season, I must say I do.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I read the whole thing. Great points.

Though given that they did have the constraints of fitting both of these large, necessarily-slow plot arcs into one season ("Hannibal" and "Red Dragon"), I think they did a surprisingly good job.

Ideal? Maybe not. But really solid, considering the constraints at play. Your post made me think about all the elements that had to be present in the Hannibal and Red Dragon stories, while surrounding them with a slow mysterious pace. To fit that into one season is a feat.
 

awp69

Member
This is something that shouldnt be overlooked. The show was at its strongest when it was original and maybe the process of adhering to existing material hurt.

I completely agree with this as well. The whole Will / Hannibal relationship was much deeper here than any of the source material. And, to me, that is what made this rise above the books and movies.
 

Goodstyle

Member
The Florence bit was definitely underrated IMO. 3x07 was without a doubt the best episode of the series for me. Perfect use of each of the characters, something that actually could have worked wonderfully as a series finale.
 
I haven't seen the most recent episode, but I have been loving this season. In fact (and I think I am in the minority here) I have liked the first half of season 3 the most out of any section of the show. I've been really enjoying the Red Dragon arc and season 2 is the most consistent as a whole, but I absolutely adore the extravagance and feel of the first half of this season.


Everyone so down on the show all of a sudden, damn.

Depression and resentment setting in now that the end is only a few days away. :(
 
Well I guess I'll see what's got everyone so polarized now but I'll say I have absolutes loved everything from episode 6 onwards of this season
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
My stupid local NBC affiliate just can't give any respect even to shows on their last seasons. I figured out that they're showing it on one of the SD subchannels, while a meaningless preseason football game and postgame show occupy the main channel.
 
Well, they're cutting right to the heart of it aren't they.

EDIT: I guess I lucked out because preseason football is airing on FOX tonight, not NBC.
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Fucking football garbage. Who are these braindead sports fan watching preseason football? I mean, I love football but... Shit, there are limitations.

I used to have a somewhat postive view of NBC given that they gave the show two more seasons when it prob should have been dead after one, but man have they really disrespected these show this past two months. Didn't expect them to cut form this garbage pointless game, but WHY.... FUCKING WHY didn't they just put the show on their website for streaming? Would have the right thing to do.

My guide says the show is coming on at 10:30 for... Half and hour? Just so fucking annoyed right now.
 

jett

D-Member
I'm in the middle of a show rewatch, just finished episode 6 of season 2. Man, this show used to be masterful, in every way.
 
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