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[Ignatz Mouse]

What am I ignoring?

Do you work on the Sabbath? Use electricity? Eat pork? Wear fiber blends? Eat shellfish or any type?

Most funidies I hear dismiss this stuff since it's Old Testament, and thus not part of the new covenant or whatever. But then they still latch onto to the gay stuff, for unknown reasons.

 

[Feep]

I think there are a lot of people piling up on Megatronium. While his own views may be a bit...arbitrary (he has not answered why he doesn't bite on numerous other Biblical passages, like working on a Sunday or paying a girl's father fifty shekels and marrying a girl after raping her, for instance), you can't really ask too much more than respecting the legal rights of others. Plus, he likely grew up in a Christian household...that kind of entrenched mindset, as many in the thread have noted, takes a long time to alter.

You do you, Mega.

 

[Calm Killer]

What about premarital sex for straight people? Is it sinful?

Yes.

Can you explain why there's this need to judge what occurs between a couple in the privacy of their bedroom? I'm in no way trying to attack your point, but this is a thing that's always bugged me.

Regardless of sexual preferences, I see and hear a lot of Christians judging homosexuality based on what occurs in the bedroom. Why do you concern yourself with sodomy or whatever simply because some text on a page tells you to? Would you be comfortable with others judging what you do in the bedroom simply because they don't like it?

Does it not come off as creepy in a way?

I don't know if it is a matter of comfort, but I don't really care if others judge me. As I try and not judge other people. God is my one true Judge. Now do I falter at this, of course. I try and not judge others but I am not perfect and I fail sometimes. I don't believe it is completely based on "what happens in the bedroom" but more of....how God wanted life to be. Also as mentioned previously in the eyes of God, Man laying with man is an abomination and vile. (Leviticus) The reasoning behind this: My thought on it is that having a child is reward. This cannot be accomplished in homosexuality. God wants us to reproduce and be fruitful. This cannot be accomplish and is an abomination.

 

[Calm Killer]

"My outlook" "in my eyes" "acceptable to me" "my interpretation" etc etc.

It really sounds like you just have a personal distaste for the idea of two men (or women?) fucking, and are possibly using extremely ambiguous Biblical language to justify it.

Where in the Bible does it actually state that two men having sex is a sin? And furthermore, where in the realm of common sense is it wrongful or harmful for them to do so? (You could say the spread of HIV but I hope you understand that that obviously is irrelevant to protected sex between two consenting loving male or female partners.)

It comes to the point that each person understands the bible in their own way. Some things are cut and dry. Some things are up for your interruption. I don't have the exact scripture in front of me, I will try and find it and reply with more detail.

It has nothing to do with the spread of disease.

 

[Calm Killer]

Not to pile on you or anything, but do you try to push your faith on other people in other ways? And please understand, I don't ask that question to be mean, but look at it this way: if you think it's a sin and aren't fine with gays being able to get married because of that, then you are pushing your religion on them aren't you?

I don't actively push my religion on others. If someone is searching I invite them to Church, and if they come that is great. If they don't I invite them again. It is their choice to come.

It is sad that people do it in the first place in many things, but it's especially sad here, as marriage isn't a religious institution. It's a legal institution that bestows a lot of benefits for couples (I strongly urge you to read this thread, the benefits aren't just things like tax benefits, but also everyday things like detailed in this post). That's why also also atheists can get married. And I assume you don't demand atheists to get married in a church. No, atheists can get married by the government and your faith has absolutely no say on it. It should have absolutely no say on whether gays can get married either. It's their life, not your life nor your faith.

The current form is a legal partnership. I agree.

Are you married? Have you ever loved someone romantically and been loved back by that person? Have you ever had sex?

They are beautiful things aren't they? To be able to be with someone in such an intimate level. It's something wondrous I'd say. We all want it. We all crave for it.

Now imagine that you just happened to be gay. You could love someone and even be loved back. But for some arbitrary reason, you would always have to control yourself and not have sex with your loved one. You could never experience the intimacy that your neighbor experiences since you just happen to be gay and they're straight. Other people would compare you controlling your urges to other people controlling their urges not to steal, rape, murder and whatever nasty stuff human is capable of doing, while what you really would be doing would just be sign of your love to your loved one, just as your neighbor makes love to his wife.

Does this really make you not think at all about whether or not the scripture is something that really is eternal 100%? Or could it be at all possible that it was a product of its time (even if you wish to believe that the people writing it were under the influence of the Holy Spirit)?

Anyway, here's some fairly good discussion from the other thread relating to the actual scripture. It mostly starts out from that post and continues at least in posts 2021 and 2029.

I will work on replying to these when I have more time to give it better attention. Look back for an edit.

 

[Jag]

Also as mentioned previously in the eyes of God, Man laying with man is an abomination and vile. (Leviticus) The reasoning behind this: My thought on it is that having a child is reward. This cannot be accomplished in homosexuality. God wants us to reproduce and be fruitful. This cannot be accomplish and is an abomination.

Soooo by that reasoning contraception is as vile as homosexuality? Because that doesn't result in a child either.

 

[Poltergust]

Yes.



I don't know if it is a matter of comfort, but I don't really care if others judge me. As I try and not judge other people. God is my one true Judge. Now do I falter at this, of course. I try and not judge others but I am not perfect and I fail sometimes. I don't believe it is completely based on "what happens in the bedroom" but more of....how God wanted life to be. Also as mentioned previously in the eyes of God, Man laying with man is an abomination and vile. (Leviticus) The reasoning behind this: My thought on it is that having a child is reward. This cannot be accomplished in homosexuality. God wants us to reproduce and be fruitful. This cannot be accomplish and is an abomination.

So should infertile heterosexual couples not be allowed to marry?

What about adoption or surrogacy?

 

[squall211]

I used to be against it even though if someone pressed me on it I couldn't have come up with a really good argument as to why I felt the way I did. I eventually came around.

 

[boiled goose]

So should infertile heterosexual couples not be allowed to marry?

What about adoption or surrogacy?

Also god created gay people. How do you claim to know God's will? Gay marriage happening was God's will was it not?

 

[NoFaceNico]

I was against gays getting married at one point, but then I realized that gay people should be allowed to make the same mistakes that I make.

 

[Siegcram]

I don't know if it is a matter of comfort, but I don't really care if others judge me. As I try and not judge other people. God is my one true Judge. Now do I falter at this, of course. I try and not judge others but I am not perfect and I fail sometimes. I don't believe it is completely based on "what happens in the bedroom" but more of....how God wanted life to be. Also as mentioned previously in the eyes of God, Man laying with man is an abomination and vile. (Leviticus) The reasoning behind this: My thought on it is that having a child is reward. This cannot be accomplished in homosexuality. God wants us to reproduce and be fruitful. This cannot be accomplish and is an abomination.

Might want to cool it on the "abonimation" talk. And the institution of marriage was never about children.

 

[Circle Jerk]

Yes.



I don't know if it is a matter of comfort, but I don't really care if others judge me. As I try and not judge other people. God is my one true Judge. Now do I falter at this, of course. I try and not judge others but I am not perfect and I fail sometimes. I don't believe it is completely based on "what happens in the bedroom" but more of....how God wanted life to be. Also as mentioned previously in the eyes of God, Man laying with man is an abomination and vile. (Leviticus) The reasoning behind this: My thought on it is that having a child is reward. This cannot be accomplished in homosexuality. God wants us to reproduce and be fruitful. This cannot be accomplish and is an abomination.

I don't like to judge people, now watch as I immediately judge people. But it's cool, because I'm trying.

 

[NHarmonic.]

This "abomination" talk is really offensive. Maybe one day the cherry picks from that archaic book will stop.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

My mum raised me to not really differentiate. I was never homophobic growing up. Mum even said to my face when I was a teenager that its ok if I'm gay (I believe I may have been displaying "signs"). She just said shed be a little upset at the idea of not having grandkids as a result.

I learned about homophobia at high school. But by that time it was already a non issue for me. I've always had arguments with people about why same sex couples should be able to marry. Lets be honest, marriage has pretty much lost its religious significance over the last 20 years anyway, so I don't buy that angle.

 

[fester]

he likely grew up in a Christian household...that kind of entrenched mindset, as many in the thread have noted, takes a long time to alter.

This thread is getting slightly derailed, but I think this is an important point to underscore. I had 17 years (!!) of Christian education and indoctrination to sort through. The hardest part for me wasn't the logical arguments for or against a topic, it was the feelings associated with it, like I was doing something wrong to question/challenge/change my belief. It's one of the reasons most religions (and advertisers) try to target kids as early as possible - those childhood memories and associations will stick with you for a long, long time.

It's incredibly encouraging to see that others have traveled a similar path and that there's hope for people to change. There's always a focus on the negative things happening in the news, but I think the world is a much better place than it ever has been.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

I use to be anti-gay period, now I don't care. Get married, adopt kids, have kids, love is love. I think it's stupid to try an deny someone the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Calm Killer]

Soooo by that reasoning contraception is as vile as homosexuality? Because that doesn't result in a child either.

Some believe that. I do not. I am only trying to explain viewpoints.

So should infertile heterosexual couples not be allowed to marry?

What about adoption or surrogacy?

I was not implying that they shouldn't. Just giving one example of where the belief comes from.

Might want to cool it on the "abonimation" talk. And the institution of marriage was never about children.

I was quoting to give reference in the backing of our belief. I am not trying to call people names or offend. If I am offending people I can surely stop the discussion.

 

[Replicant]

As far as I know, the Bible condemns it.

The bible condemns many thing but the fact is, it is a VILE piece of book, full of sexist, derogatory and unkind ideas. This comes a former Catholic. I mean look at marriage according to The Bible:

 

[Alcoremortis]

When I was a kid and growing up in a super Catholic background, I totally bought the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" attitude. But, being a kid, I thought that single life looked pretty rad and didn't really get why it would be hard to just stay single. Granted, I also never really gave much thought to people's sexuality at all until that point, so a lot of the stuff my teachers were telling me just kinda went over my head.

Going to a more liberal (but still Catholic) high school helped a lot because it was less of a "you're wrong" response from the pro-gay marriage people and more of a "have you thought about this" one, which made me start questioning whether there was any real grounds for it being immoral.

I think the real turning point was when I made a friend who had two mothers around the time that Prop 8 in California was being repealed and she was so happy that her parents would finally get to get married that I just couldn't find a single reason to be against it.

And then it became a more important issue for me when I went to Berkeley and started hanging out with people who knew a lot more about the issue than I did and filled me in on why civil partnerships wouldn't cut it, why getting rid of civil marriage entirely wasn't acceptable, and so forth.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

I didn't support it when I was a child, due to being raised hardcore Christian. After realizing I'm bi, I sort of warmed to the idea.

 

[Fenderputty]

I was a homophobe in high school. I've changed my stances quite a bit. I was also religious, or at least had faith when I was younger too.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Has anyone said Hilary Clinton yet?

 

[Team Alucard]

Has anyone said Hilary Clinton yet?

Most democrats, including President Obama were also still against it less than 4 years ago.

 

[Schwarzbier]

I think that all marriage is a sham actually. Why the states put so many legal rights behind it is obnoxious to me.

I've always thought tax breaks for married people were BS, but that's just me. Marriage is pretty dumb, there is little reason to these days unless you're doing it for legal reasons.

I'm 36, at 20 I was against it, figured since Marriage was at least somewhat religious in nature that it should be left as such, and gay people should be able to enter in to some sort of legal union with the same rights and benefits, just called something else. I eventually changed my mind after going to college and starting my career. I work with gay people all the time in my line of work, and I came to learn that people are people, regardless of who they want to bone.

I have gay and transgender friends now, people I love, I just want to see them happy.

Oh, and I work in production, do lots of weddings...so gay marriage = money in my pocket. That's a pretty fiscally conservative reason to be pro gay marriage.