runningjoke
Member
I can't remember having an opinion about this before the news hit that it was legal in The Netherlands. They showed a bunch of happily married people on tv so I thought the whole thing was alright
Has anyone changed their mind from anti-gay marriage to pro-gay marriage?
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I believe in God, and in my youth believed that marriage was something sacrosanct. I thought gay people should have an official union and all of the legal/financial benefits of marriage, but not the title itself.
The change for me came when I realized that we all have only one life to live, and it would really suck to never be able to have or do the one thing you want just because you're born a certain way. This revelation has altered my views on a lot of things. Also, marriage means different things to different people and communities and that's OK.
The change for me came when I realized that we all have only one life to live, and it would really suck to never be able to have or do the one thing you want just because you're born a certain way. This revelation has altered my views on a lot of things. Also, marriage means different things to different people and communities and that's OK.
"My outlook" "in my eyes" "acceptable to me" "my interpretation" etc etc.
It really sounds like you just have a personal distaste for the idea of two men (or women?) fucking, and are possibly using extremely ambiguous Biblical language to justify it.
Where in the Bible does it actually state that two men having sex is a sin? And furthermore, where in the realm of common sense is it wrongful or harmful for them to do so? (You could say the spread of HIV but I hope you understand that that obviously is irrelevant to protected sex between two consenting loving male or female partners.)
TheSlySoul
Member
Yes, mostly because I was raised by bible belt parents.
It was around 16 or 17 that I realize who you love should be a choice no matter what some book says.
It was around 16 or 17 that I realize who you love should be a choice no matter what some book says.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
Can you explain why there's this need to judge what occurs between a couple in the privacy of their bedroom? I'm in no way trying to attack your point, but this is a thing that's always bugged me.
Regardless of sexual preferences, I see and hear a lot of Christians judging homosexuality based on what occurs in the bedroom. Why do you concern yourself with sodomy or whatever simply because some text on a page tells you to? Would you be comfortable with others judging what you do in the bedroom simply because they don't like it?
Does it not come off as creepy in a way?
megatronium
Member
Christians do not believe that the writings of the Bible are just "some text on a page".
SkeptiMism
Member
Not to pile on you or anything, but do you try to push your faith on other people in other ways? And please understand, I don't ask that question to be mean, but look at it this way: if you think it's a sin and aren't fine with gays being able to get married because of that, then you are pushing your religion on them aren't you?
It is sad that people do it in the first place in many things, but it's especially sad here, as marriage isn't a religious institution. It's a legal institution that bestows a lot of benefits for couples (I strongly urge you to read this thread, the benefits aren't just things like tax benefits, but also everyday things like detailed in this post). That's why also also atheists can get married. And I assume you don't demand atheists to get married in a church. No, atheists can get married by the government and your faith has absolutely no say on it. It should have absolutely no say on whether gays can get married either. It's their life, not your life nor your faith.
Are you married? Have you ever loved someone romantically and been loved back by that person? Have you ever had sex?
They are beautiful things aren't they? To be able to be with someone in such an intimate level. It's something wondrous I'd say. We all want it. We all crave for it.
Now imagine that you just happened to be gay. You could love someone and even be loved back. But for some arbitrary reason, you would always have to control yourself and not have sex with your loved one. You could never experience the intimacy that your neighbor experiences since you just happen to be gay and they're straight. Other people would compare you controlling your urges to other people controlling their urges not to steal, rape, murder and whatever nasty stuff human is capable of doing, while what you really would be doing would just be sign of your love to your loved one, just as your neighbor makes love to his wife.
Does this really make you not think at all about whether or not the scripture is something that really is eternal 100%? Or could it be at all possible that it was a product of its time (even if you wish to believe that the people writing it were under the influence of the Holy Spirit)?
Anyway, here's some fairly good discussion from the other thread relating to the actual scripture. It mostly starts out from that post and continues at least in posts 2021 and 2029.
Spehornoob
Member
I was never a hateful "fuck da queermosexuals because Jesus" kind of guy. There were a couple gay kids in my school and I was one of the few that would socialize with them just fine. But I was raised in a fairly conservative household in a town of less than a thousand people. If you had asked me in High School if I was against Gay Marriage, I probably would have said yes, if only because that was really the only viewpoint I had ever been exposed to.
That said, it was never really something I actively fought against or anything. Once I hit college and made a few legit friends who happened to be gay, my position evolved to a Pro Gay Marriage stance pretty quickly. Never saw much of a logical argument against it.
That said, it was never really something I actively fought against or anything. Once I hit college and made a few legit friends who happened to be gay, my position evolved to a Pro Gay Marriage stance pretty quickly. Never saw much of a logical argument against it.
megatronium
Member
To answer the question: I believe my opinion has changed somewhat.
As a Christian, I believe that gay marriage is different from a legal and religious perspective.
As far as constitutionally and legally, I think I have become pro-gay marriage.
As for my spirituality, I would have to say I'm against it.
Not a popular opinion I know, but that's where I'm at currently. I think the scotus ruling is positive.
As a Christian, I believe that gay marriage is different from a legal and religious perspective.
As far as constitutionally and legally, I think I have become pro-gay marriage.
As for my spirituality, I would have to say I'm against it.
Not a popular opinion I know, but that's where I'm at currently. I think the scotus ruling is positive.
I never cared if someone was gay or not unless it affected me personally.
Aside from that I never cared if they were granted that right in the sense that I never understood why they didn't have it.
If we're talking religious wedding, yeah I can see how a priest could be against it.
Otherwise I think the only valid reason I ever had would be the mechanical increase in divorce further lining the pockets of lawyers.
It was a good thing when France made it possible, it's a great thing that SCOTUS ruled that way and it was a great thing when other countries did it too.
The absolute best part was the referendum in Ireland that silenced the bigots, every country should have had that.
And don't get me started on the shitty arguments that boils down to "think of the children".
Fuck that.
Aside from that I never cared if they were granted that right in the sense that I never understood why they didn't have it.
If we're talking religious wedding, yeah I can see how a priest could be against it.
Otherwise I think the only valid reason I ever had would be the mechanical increase in divorce further lining the pockets of lawyers.
It was a good thing when France made it possible, it's a great thing that SCOTUS ruled that way and it was a great thing when other countries did it too.
The absolute best part was the referendum in Ireland that silenced the bigots, every country should have had that.
And don't get me started on the shitty arguments that boils down to "think of the children".
Fuck that.
No because i have been raised properly and learned that all people are equal no matter what race or orientation. But then again my country was the 2nd country in the world where gay marriage was allowed back in 2002 or something like that. But we suck at other stuff though so we compensate.
What about premarital sex for straight people? Is it sinful?
NHarmonic.
Member
What a fucking awful article. You should cite studies, not anecdotal evidence crap.
"It promotes and normalizes a family structure that necessarily denies us something precious and foundational."
Yeah, because really, the only "normality" HAS to be a man and a woman, the rest of the families structures are wrong /don't matter /are dangerous, etc.
Maybe something called love is what should be deemed most important, that and responsability, caring; In other words: good parenting.
Awful, awful article.
I do appreciate that you have the wherewithal to separate spiritual beliefs with practical, logical legal matters. But dare I press further, what do you have against gay marriage spiritually? What harm do you think God thinks it causes?
rokkerkory
Member
Reading some of these responses make me so proud of you guys and us all as a whole. Happier world ahead I hope.
megatronium
Member
I can't speculate on what God thinks because his thoughts are infinitely above and beyond my own.
Spiritually, the Bible states that a woman was created for man as well as other scripture. It's as simple as I believe in what the Bible says and do my best to adhere to it.
Do you ever think to go deeper and maybe question some of the inconsistencies or the potential for mistranslations or historical context or the hypocrisies of believing in some scripture but dismissing others, or are you generally happy to take the simplistic concepts it presents at face value?
megatronium
Member
Yes I do.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Black people shouldn't have children because of the social stigma of being black. Simple people with baldness in their family. Being christian is a stigma in some places. They should be banned too.
Complete and utter Bs argument.
God created gay people too.
megatronium
Member
What does that have to do with my response? I love gay people and think they should have the same legal rights as straight people.
civilstrife
Member
Religion holds a figurative gun to your head. "Believe this, or else"
So when Christians or any other religion pulls out the "we don't hate you, we just hate what you're doing" thing, I just see a mostly reasonable person scared for their life (or soul) if they say or believe the wrong thing.
The problem is inconsistency. Why push your beliefs about homosexuality when it appears in the same book as not eating shellfish or wearing multithreaded clothing?
It just becomes painfully obvious that most religious people are harping on homosexuality because they're told they should or because it "feels" wrong to them or maybe it grosses them out more than eating shellfish does.
So when Christians or any other religion pulls out the "we don't hate you, we just hate what you're doing" thing, I just see a mostly reasonable person scared for their life (or soul) if they say or believe the wrong thing.
The problem is inconsistency. Why push your beliefs about homosexuality when it appears in the same book as not eating shellfish or wearing multithreaded clothing?
It just becomes painfully obvious that most religious people are harping on homosexuality because they're told they should or because it "feels" wrong to them or maybe it grosses them out more than eating shellfish does.
Okay. So, the scripture you invoked about woman being the God-ordained object of companionship for man. Feminism aside, where does this specifically exclude other forms of companionship, like friends or a dog or same-sex partners? What about singledom? Is that unHoly? If it's simply about the practical purposes of procreation, then it's not really about companionship, right? But we are overpopulated as it is, so what is the purpose of this procreation? ...
Do you see how the verse might "sound good" like "yeah! it's meant to be a man with a woman" but when you break it down it doesn't actually mean anything... although if you think it does mean something I'll be happy to prove otherwise.
Then women don't have a monopoly on the "companion role" (which is pretty condescending way of looking at it, btw).
megatronium
Member
I don't claim to have all the answers to every issue you may find with the Bible. In fact, I don't. Let me try to answer your questions though.
Feminism aside, where does this specifically exclude other forms of companionship?
I never mentioned companionship.
What about singledom? Is that unHoly?
No.
If it's simply about the practical purposes of procreation, then it's not really about companionship, right?
Didn't mention procreation.
right
megatronium
Member
I spoke of marriage from my spiritual perspective. Legally, I agree that people who are gay should have the right to marry.
A person can have a same-sex companion if they want.
megatronium
Member
Ok companion is a bad choice of words. I was wrong to use that and will correct it.
A person can have a same sex companion if they want.
You have to right to be anti-christianity.
Honestly the religion arguement is stupid because it doesn't affect anyone.
It can be against a certain religion to gay marry. That's fine. It's their made up rules.
But christians saying gay marriage violates their religious rights is like Hindu's saying someone else eating beef is violating their rights.
It can be against a certain religion to gay marry. That's fine. It's their made up rules.
But christians saying gay marriage violates their religious rights is like Hindu's saying someone else eating beef is violating their rights.
So what is it about same-sex marriage that is unChristian?
megatronium
Member
Here's a question for you: What are you trying to accomplish with your line of questioning?
Is it not common knowledge that Christianity does not align with same-sex marriage?
I would assume that the line of questioning is to look at whether the Christian view of same sex marriage/homosexuality is correct or even relevant anymore
I don't define myself by being "anti" anything. I'm not religious.
The same thing that's been driving people to question their spirituality and faith for years. That thing is the the attempt to understand why, despite democratic acceptance of same-sex couples, marriages, and people, does Christianity still reject them?
boiled goose
good with gravy
There are Scripture passages against homosexuality.
But it is all pick and choose anyway.
There are passages to support and passages to be against. So folks using religion to hate are choosing to do so.
LegendofLex
Member
I'm Catholic.
As a kid, I was completely oblivious to the concept of homosexuality.
As a teenager, I was groomed to believe firmly in the infallibility of Catholic doctrine, among which was the idea that homosexuality is a sin.
As a young adult, I was exposed to the same-sex marriage movement, and having had little exposure to other people's sexuality outside of Catholic teen discussion groups I would argue against it.
As a college student, I met lots of people of varying sexual orientations and gender identities, learned about the really tumultuous history of marriage both in the world at large as well as within Catholicism/Christianity, and actually began to question the basis for anti-LGBTQ beliefs.
I'm still a Catholic, but I no longer accept infallibility - the Church is often right when it approaches an issue with the proper factual basis (see: emphasis on charity, beliefs in evolution and climate change), but usually wrong when it does not (see: oppression of Galileo and other astronomers, historical participation in racism and continued participation in sexism, views and policies on homosexuality).
As a kid, I was completely oblivious to the concept of homosexuality.
As a teenager, I was groomed to believe firmly in the infallibility of Catholic doctrine, among which was the idea that homosexuality is a sin.
As a young adult, I was exposed to the same-sex marriage movement, and having had little exposure to other people's sexuality outside of Catholic teen discussion groups I would argue against it.
As a college student, I met lots of people of varying sexual orientations and gender identities, learned about the really tumultuous history of marriage both in the world at large as well as within Catholicism/Christianity, and actually began to question the basis for anti-LGBTQ beliefs.
I'm still a Catholic, but I no longer accept infallibility - the Church is often right when it approaches an issue with the proper factual basis (see: emphasis on charity, beliefs in evolution and climate change), but usually wrong when it does not (see: oppression of Galileo and other astronomers, historical participation in racism and continued participation in sexism, views and policies on homosexuality).
megatronium
Member
I question my spirituality and faith occasionally. I would imagine that situations arise in which people question their ideals and morals. I'm by no means perfect and do my best to be logical in all situations.
My current stance is what I stated. My opinion has evolved from being anti-gay marriage to pro-gay marriage.
The questioning now seems to be slanted towards being anti-Christianity. Are people really asking me why I'm a Christian and believe in Christianity? Because that's what it's starting to feel like.
My current stance is what I stated. My opinion has evolved from being anti-gay marriage to pro-gay marriage.
The questioning now seems to be slanted towards being anti-Christianity. Are people really asking me why I'm a Christian and believe in Christianity? Because that's what it's starting to feel like.
Dead Prince
Banned
just wanted to chime that would be me
hopefully he didn't model everyone after me LOL.
megatronium
Member
No hate here.
I wiggled out of religion at a pretty young age so I never saw any justification for the opposition to it. I guess I used to have a "who the fuck cares, let's talk about something important" attitude about it. As I developed a bit of empathy, I began to have more respect for political/social issues that don't directly affect me.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Speaking for myself, it's why you interpret Christianity the way you do, not that you are Christian.
I know lots of Christians that don't view homosexuality as a sin any more than eating pork or working on Sunday.
doctorblurg
Banned
Back when I was younger I was pretty indifferent to the whole thing living in a smallish town in Texas you kinda just didn't care what happened. Once I hit about age 16 or so I started making friends who were lgbta+ members and I started wanting them to have the same rights as everyone else. Then when I was 18 I realized I wasn't straight myself and then it became a very big deal that if I did fall in love with a guy I wouldn't be allowed to marry him and now here I am today at 20 being very very passionate about the entire subject.
I can thank hanging out on the Internet and my college environment for that. And I'm glad I'm so passionate about the whole situation compared to how indifferent I was four or five years ago.
I can thank hanging out on the Internet and my college environment for that. And I'm glad I'm so passionate about the whole situation compared to how indifferent I was four or five years ago.
No, i can't remember ever being against it. I know that when it became an issue here over a decade ago I was pro from the start. Before I probably didn't ever thought about it.
And after all these years, it is just such a normal feat to. It is strange to think that in some,other western countries lbgt's aren't able to marry
And after all these years, it is just such a normal feat to. It is strange to think that in some,other western countries lbgt's aren't able to marry
megatronium
Member
As far as I know, the Bible condemns it. I did a quick google search who's purpose is to find specific Biblical scripture and found this:
Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the "eternal fire". Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
John Dunbar
correct about everything
if there's one thing you can count on with religious people it's that they will never run out of reasons to ignore the things they don't like in their holy books. and that's a good thing. the trick is to get them to dislike the right things.
megatronium
Member
What am I ignoring?
It doesn't say that. The Bible labels certain ACTS (things you voluntarily commit) as sin (all that means is that it separates you from God because it is unlike God and His character. Every human sins in one way or another), like sexual acts outside of marriage, NOT sexual preference, something a human cannot voluntarily influence.
The Bible calls Christians within the church to judge one another and hold each other accountable to God's commands. This is so Christians can grow in spiritual character according to God. But it does NOT call Christians to judge non-believers. How could they? Non-believers don't profess to follow God. The Bible only calls Christians to be honest and bold about what God says is right, but if someone doesn't want to believe that, that's their prerogative and not any human's position to judge or interfere. Only God's.
You can believe gay marriage is immoral just like pre-marital sex, and you can tell people you believe that (politely), but if people who aren't Christian don't want to believe or live that, then let them be, it's their business. Right?
Poop!
Member
I think that all marriage is a sham actually. Why the states put so many legal rights behind it is obnoxious to me.
As for the whole gay marriage "debate" it's stupid. It's just a bunch of folks hiding behind religion when religion has NOTHING to do with being legally married.
At no point on the marriage license form is there a check box that says "I believe in a god". No, you can be a Satanist and still be married.
As for the whole gay marriage "debate" it's stupid. It's just a bunch of folks hiding behind religion when religion has NOTHING to do with being legally married.
At no point on the marriage license form is there a check box that says "I believe in a god". No, you can be a Satanist and still be married.
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