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[Stiler]

They probably wouldn't pitch it like that. However, to say that a work cannot eventually take on unintended messages through the framing of its characters and conflicts is silly. Like, seriously, no one sets out to make shit, but magically shit gets made all the time.

That's not have tv works, HBO doesn't simply give them a blank check and then let them have free reign to air whatever the hell they want on HBO.

HBO is the one in control, and they check everything, even before it's filmed they have people that go over the scripts and everything so they'd fully know what's being made and the storyline, etc.

 

[Captin Quacker]

Just gonna leave this here

HBO’s motives aside, the plea to wait supposes that a problem of conception can be fixed in execution. We do not need to wait to observe that this supposition is, at best, dicey. For over a century, Hollywood has churned out well-executed, slickly produced epics which advanced the Lost Cause myth of the Civil War. These are true “alternative histories,” built on “alternative facts,” assembled to depict the Confederacy as a wonderland of virtuous damsels and gallant knights, instead of the sprawling kleptocratic police state it actually was. From last century’s The Birth of a Nation to this century’s Gods and Generals, Hollywood has likely done more than any other American institution to obstruct a truthful apprehension of the Civil War, and thus modern America’s very origins. So one need not wait to observe that any foray by HBO into the Civil War must be met with a spirit of pointed inquiry and a withholding of all benefit of the doubt.

Knowing this, we do not have to wait to point out that comparisons between Confederate and The Man in the High Castle are fatuous. Nazi Germany was also defeated. But while its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world, not one author of the Confederacy was convicted of treason. Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg. Confederate General John B. Gordon became a senator. Germany has spent the decades since World War II in national penance for Nazi crimes. America spent the decades after the Civil War transforming Confederate crimes into virtues. It is illegal to fly the Nazi flag in Germany. The Confederate flag is enmeshed in the state flag of Mississippi.

From the last thread on this

Via The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/):

 

[The Dear Leader]

That sounds kinda interesting, I remember a weird sorta comedic fake documentary about a similar concept.

 

[PudieRSC]

Well duh.

Is that even a question; Of Course that's exactly who they're aiming at.

I get the timing and the sensitive nature of the subject.

Bu seriously. What the fuck? How do you guys actually think HBO is making a pro Alt-Right, hate endorsing show?

They could very well fuck up the execution, but come on now. The salve owners/hunters/whatever aren't going to be heroes or anti heroes. They aren't going to be Darly Dixon. They're going to be terrible fucking people. The alt-right, pro slavery, whatever that exist in this show are going to be clear cut evil.

Hell it could even become so heavy handed in the other direction too that it becomes unbearable.

 

[Lois_Lane]

That sounds kinda interesting, I remember a weird sorta comedic fake documentary about a similar concept.

I watched that documentary and it made certain to make the confederates look like a bunch of raging cunts while the Canadians, who continued to take in runaway slaves, were the tech/cultural capital of their world. I doubt HBO is going in that vein as they want to "both sides"shit.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I get the timing and the sensitive nature of the subject.

Bu seriously. What the fuck? How do you guys actually think HBO is making a pro Alt-Right, hate endorsing show?

They could very well fuck up the execution, but come on now. The salve owners/hunters/whatever aren't going to be heroes or anti heroes. They aren't going to be Darly Dixon. They're going to be terrible fucking people. The alt-right, pro slavery, whatever that exist in this show are going to be clear cut evil.

You really don't think there are going to be morally complex, conflicted slave owners? Really?

 

[Nafai1123]

Just gonna leave this here



From the last thread on this

Wow, didn't see that before. Really nails the issue and shuts down the whataboutism regarding other shows.

 

[PudieRSC]

You really don't think there are going to be morally complex, conflicted slave owners? Really?

Actually, thinking about it you're probably right, and it will deal with that. But A) I'd assume he'd choose the correct side or B) probably die in a satisfying way.

It's a complex issue and character, but I don't think any of it would endorse or condone alt-right ideas, slavery, etc.

And again, the execution could fail. But my point was it's ridiculous to say this is being made for the Alt--Right.

 

[norm9]

You really don't think there are going to be morally complex, conflicted slave owners? Really?

"You see? Not all slave owners were bad." And so on and so forth.

 

[Ryaaan14]

HBO has seriously been struggling to make compelling TV for years.

lol

 

[Volimar]

Not trying to conflate the two because my God what a bad idea, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was backlash to Man in the High Castle. Probably not as much because alt history fiction about Nazis has been in the general eye more than this.

 

[Battlezone]

That's not have tv works, HBO doesn't simply give them a blank check and then let them have free reign to air whatever the hell they want on HBO.

HBO is the one in control, and they check everything, even before it's filmed they have people that go over the scripts and everything so they'd fully know what's being made and the storyline, etc.

That is literally what they did here. In HBO's own words.

I have to be careful here, because this is my employer, and there's a lot of things I can't share. But you're right -no script has been written yet, and all of that still has to be approved. But you're making a large leap to assume that they wouldn't let them tell a pro-slavery story, if that's indeed the story they wanted to tell.

But that wasn't my question, anyway. You defended the concept of the show without watching it, while chastising those who criticized it without watching it. Why?

 

[Not]

How "complicated" can you make it without erasing the fucking premise?

 

[Gigglepoo]

Not trying to conflate the two because my God what a bad idea, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was backlash to Man in the High Castle. Probably not as much because alt history fiction about Nazis has been in the general eye more than this.

We've already talked about the differences between World War 2 and the Civil War (and their respective aftermaths) in this thread.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Honestly, I have the feeling this show will turn out unintentionally hilarious, partially because of who’s involved. Can’t wait to clown it once it’s actually out.

Not trying to conflate the two because my God what a bad idea, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was backlash to Man in the High Castle. Probably not as much because alt history fiction about Nazis has been in the general eye more than this.

Nazis actually lost though.

Meanwhile union states have confederate memorials in them.

 

[Enzom21]

Not trying to conflate the two because my God what a bad idea, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was backlash to Man in the High Castle. Probably not as much because alt history fiction about Nazis has been in the general eye more than this.

Did you read the thread?

 

[Not]

Not trying to conflate the two because my God what a bad idea, but I'm just genuinely curious if there was backlash to Man in the High Castle. Probably not as much because alt history fiction about Nazis has been in the general eye more than this.

Literally just scroll up.

 

[Joe T.]

HBO has seriously been struggling to make compelling TV for years. They made stuff like Westworld from a super interesting idea to a by the numbers drama. My guess is that they’ll just never mention the show again or change the name because first impressions are everything and this doesn’t bode well for it.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Someone needs to grab this dude by his jowls and scream into his face that black people do not want to see a modern day show about us still being slaves.

 

[Nafai1123]

Two white dudes writing this show is like defusing landmines while wearing an Oculus Rift.

 

[KahooTs]

I just love their confusion. Their show running stars tackling the never so topical issue of racism, they must have been so joyous when D&D brought them the idea. Feels like now they're in an anger stage. Market research shows absolutely no reason for any of you to not love this!

 

[Mr. X]

They're going to make slavery look cool and not that bad 👻👻👻

 

[pantsmith]

I saw Casey Bloys (a higher up at HBO) give a talk at a local college, and while he seemed charming and intelligent his answer to the whole Confederate drama was basically “Well everybody knows slavery is bad, duh.”

HBO sees dollar signs. And rightfully so! The number of fucking Confederate flags I see, even in Union-ass Pennyslvania (the liberal stretch of it, too!) is basically proof positive that there is a large out of touch demographic who would eat this fantasy South shit up, no matter the harm it does by offering a positive outlet.

 

[Neece]

Do you honestly think HBO would even let the idea move forward if that were the case?

No way in hell would they touch it with a 10 foot pole if they thought it was a pro-slavery show or story idolizing slavery and the people for it.

Of course it won’t ostensibly be “pro-slavery”. They have black writers and show runners that believe racism is bad. But that’s not really the point. They want to explore a nuanced topic and as the press release stated, that means covering a wide range of characters, good and bad. They are going to humanize and make protagonists out of “both sides” and that is where lesser storytellers fumble with execution. Like, I don’t think D&D are “pro rape” but they damn sure did a terrible job handling the sensitive subject in Game of Thrones. Ditto that race and their own themes regarding violence.

No this won’t be an intentional pro-slavery series on its surface but I’ll be shocked if we don’t end up with slave hunters with hearts of gold or morally grey slave owning families that are beloved despite their evil, like the Lannisters.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I sure hope the folks getting upset at others being critical about this show and pushing back aren't folks who get up in arms over feature, story, etc announcements in videogames.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I sure hope the folks getting upset at others being critical about this show and pushing back aren't folks who get up in arms over feature, story, etc announcements in videogames.

Or who are upset when women or people of color replace the white male stars in established franchises.

 

[Stiler]

That is literally what they did here. In HBO's own words.

I have to be careful here, because this is my employer, and there's a lot of things I can't share. But you're right -no script has been written yet, and all of that still has to be approved. But you're making a large leap to assume that they wouldn't let them tell a pro-slavery story, if that's indeed the story they wanted to tell.

But that wasn't my question, anyway. You defended the concept of the show without watching it, while chastising those who criticized it without watching it. Why?

You honestly think HBO would approve a pro slavery show, approve the script, let them film it and pay for it, then put it on air?

What do you think would happen if they did that?

1. HBO would go under, they would literally get so much bad press/boycotting.
2. Everyone involved (the actors, writers, etc) would get blacklisted from Hollywood, no studio would want to touch them with a 10 foot pole.

They'd literally be committing career suicide if the show was pro slavery and out to make a racial statement like that.

 

[Haines]

I believe the point that people are making is that alternate history implies that the world presented isn't like our own, that it presents something worse or better or different, that lets us reflect upon our time through contrast.

Except our world today and the kind of alternate history where slavery and the Confederacy still exists today are so similar, that presenting such as an alternate history, distant and different from our own history, comes across as a tone-deaf slap in the face

This is very well put. I don't think anyone can disagree with this.

Either way it sounds like the show is being made and we will be able to judge it instead of an announcement.

 

[BunnyBear]

People who think HBO are doing this to appease the alt-right are simply clowns. I mean, seriously? You think they’re not aware of the social climate right now?

I’ll give the show a chance because the premise is certainly interesting. Some of you are jumping the gun on this, we don’t know how it’s gonna turn out.

 

[Jigorath]

The main character will be a Confederate white girl who, deep down, knows slavery is wrong.

 

[danm999]

Yeah I wouldn't trust the Game of Thrones guys to do this well, especially without the protective net of a source material.

 

[Derwind]

Someone needs to grab this dude by his jowls and scream into his face that black people do not want to see a modern day show about us still being slaves.

From their viewership numbers, it won't matter to them either way. They know who they're catering to.

Also, HBO can go fuck itself.

People who think HBO are doing this to appease the alt-right are simply clowns. I mean, seriously? You think they’re not aware of the social climate right now?

I’ll give the show a chance because the premise is certainly interesting. Some of you are jumping the gun on this, we don’t know how it’s gonna turn out.

Portraying black people as slaves in a "what-if" scenario is not insightful, creative or witty.

Do you and wait to judge the show, just stop trying to tell people how to feel.

 

[dafortune]

I honestly don't get whats wrong with the concept, seems similar to the man in the high castle. Sure the way the show could be executed could be problematic but just the idea of an alternate history show where the confederacy won and slavery exists in modern day America is fine on it's own. Could even potentially be woke af.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I honestly don't get whats wrong with the concept, seems similar to the man in the high castle. Sure the way the show could be executed could be problematic but just the idea of an alternate history show where the confederacy won and slavery exists in modern day America is fine on it's own. Could even potentially be woke af.

I know when I think of woke I think of the guys who thought let's Rape Sansa to motivate her character progression

 

[Volimar]

We've already talked about the differences between World War 2 and the Civil War (and their respective aftermaths) in this thread.

Yeah but I wasn't talking about the differences, I'm not trying to compare the two, I was genuinely curious if there was a backlash. I know there are people rationalizing it by comparing, I'm not doing that. I just sincerely wondered.

Did you read the thread?

Yep, hence why I was wondering. Because people were talking about Man in the High Castle, so I was wondering.

 

[Takyon]

Just came home today from a university lecture on Reconstruction.
MFW the South:
.kept getting concession after concession before the war
.started a war that killed 600 000 people in order to defend slavery
.lost that war
.then got concessions after the war and subjugated the entire black population of the south to segregation, poverty and terrorism

This idea just papers over the fact that in terms of subjugation of black folk, the white southerners of the confederacy barely lost at all.

 

[Volimar]

Just came home today from a university lecture on Reconstruction.
MFW the South:
.kept getting concession after concession before the war
.started a war that killed 600 000 people in order to defend slavery
.lost that war
.then got concessions after the war and subjugated the entire black population of the south to segregation, poverty and terrorism

This idea just papers over the fact that in terms of subjugation of black folk, the white southerners of the confederacy barely lost at all.

While still calling traitors heroes and waving the flag from the losing side. Kind of reminds me of the Family Guy episode where they have a reenactment where the south wins.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Here's the deal we don't have to imagine what it would be like if the South won the war, literally other than slavery.... the South arguably did win the war in many ways.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/02/the-price-of-union

 

[dafortune]

This idea just papers over the fact that in terms of subjugation of black folk, the white southerners of the confederacy barely lost at all.

IMO that's exactly why telling a story of them not losing could potentially be poignant. I'm not saying this project will be but I'm not gonna pass judgement on the concept alone.

 

[Volimar]

It's basically MAGA the series. Giving the supremacists what they want. An ideal to live for. "That's the way it oughtta be" kind of shit.

Here's the deal we don't have to imagine what it would be like if the South lost the war, literally other than slavery.... the South arguably did win the war in many ways.

But we got peach tea out of it so if you think about it, the decades of institutional racism from post reconstruction south kind of evens out.

 

[TBiddy]

I hadn't heard of this show, until this thread. It seems like an interesting concept - sorta like Handmaids Tale, which was great and an interesting thought experiment of how things could've been.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I hadn't heard of this show, until this thread. It seems like an interesting concept - sorta like Handmaids Tale, which was great and an interesting thought experiment of how things could've been.

Margaret Atwood vs D&D hmm......

 

[Volimar]

Margaret Atwood vs D&D hmm......

I'm a Thrones fan and even I think that'd be like comparing Shakespeare to Stephanie Mayer.

 

[TBiddy]

I'm a Thrones fan and even I think that'd be like comparing Shakespeare to Stephanie Mayer.

Who's comparing them? Besides, excelsiorlef, that is. I have no idea if this show is going to be shit or not, but I think it's an interesting premise for a show.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Who's comparing them? Besides, excelsiorlef, that is. I have no idea if this show is going to be shit or not, but I think it's an interesting premise for a show.

You did?

Who do you think wrote the source material for Handmaiden's Tale

 

[TBiddy]

You?

I've never compared the authors. What makes you think that?

Edit: Complimenting the premise for the two shows is not the same as comparing the authors, in any way.

 

[Tracygill]

This is just wishful thinking but what if they describe the show as alt history where the south won but the show is actually just real history.

 

[CaviarMeths]

I actually think a "what if the Confederates won" is an interesting prompt for a series, but a topic like that would need to be handled a very specific way. Like, it would need to be dystopian horror. A Handmaiden's Tale or V for Vendetta kind of "this is a terrible reality." And obviously, it would need black leads. If they cast a white person as the hero, they done fucked up right off the bat.

Edit: Scratch that, if this thing is the sole creation of D&D with little input from any other creatives, they done fucked up right off the bat. They should at least be hiring black writers and directors for this project.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've never compared the authors. What makes you think that?

Edit: Complimenting the premise for the two shows is not the same as comparing the authors, in any way.

Allow me to notate

I hadn't heard of this show, until this thread. It seems like an interesting concept (First Point of Comparison) - sorta like Handmaids Tale (second point of comparison), which was great and an interesting thought experiment of how things could've been. (a positive qualitative judgment on the finished production in the same sentence as the premise comparison. This is invoking an authorial comparison as it goes beyond praising premise and into praising execution )

You compared it to Handmaiden's Tale and supported that comparison by proclaiming that Handmaiden's Tale was great.... which yeah no shit it's Margaret Atwood.

 

[TBiddy]

You compared it to Handmaiden's Tale and supported that comparison by proclaiming that Handmaiden's Tale was great.... which yeah no shit it's Margaret Atwood.

I said the concept of "what could've been" is interesting - just like the premise of Handmaids Tale.

I've never discussed the authors, so stop pretending that I did, please.