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[HStallion]

Racists do have families they care about so did slave owners, doesn't excuse anything.

And I personally don't care to see it. Maybe if someone like David Simon was helming the show I would have some more faith.

Man you've already seen the show, are you from the future!?

No I live in the USA where a lot of people love doing that shit for racists and bigots.

 

[finowns]

No I live in the USA where a lot of people love doing that shit for racists and bigots.

TV Shows?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I asked you for your opinion on whether or not you think they are. Relax on the glass house, bud. Lol...

Are the authors, in your mind, racist?



That's fair. The writers are black though, aren't they? What makes them not care about black and brown people? Genuinely curious.

Two of the Ex-Producers are but D&D whose idea this was, and whose show this is are not.

No I don't think they're racist. No idea why you asked that.

 

[HStallion]

TV Shows?

No the populace at large.

 

[Budi]

Few if any are arguing this is going to cause people to be pro-slavery....

Good me neither. Hey, I understand the worries, but I don't understand how people have already made up their minds on how it will be. But it's okay, I'm not trying to argue that everyone should be excited about this. I'm not here to sell the show.

And I personally don't care to see it. Maybe if someone like David Simon was helming the show I would have some more faith.

Absolutely, I'd have more faith in Simon too.

Because it's the GoT guys, because it's the GoT guys doing this in light of all that has happened since November 2016.

The GoT guys are literally known for when in doubt thrown in a new rape scene for character development.

Agreed, they don't have spotless track record.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Good me neither. Hey, I understand the worries, but I don't understand how people have already made up their minds on how it will be. But it's okay, I'm not trying to argue that everyone should be excited about this. I'm not here to sell the show.

Because it's the GoT guys, because it's the GoT guys doing this in light of all that has happened since November 2016.

The GoT guys are literally known for when in doubt thrown in a new rape scene for character development.

 

[Samara]

Problem I have with this is the same as American History X. Despicable people filmed beautifully. Just adds to the pile of footage to their library.

 

[adj_noun]

The OT for this thing is gonna be something.

 

[Whompa02]

Two of the Ex-Producers are but D&D whose idea this was, and whose show this is are not.

No I don't think they're racist. No idea why you asked that.

I asked because you mentioned their track record of stiffing black people. I then asked you if you thought it was due to some sort of racist tendencies, especially considering the context of this show.

 

[Conciliator]

Yeah, it sounds like heavy stuff and they gotta be real careful with the tone. I'll withhold judgement, though.

 

[exmachina64]

For those unfamiliar, these are the worst screenwriters to ever helm a flagship network franchise.

Someone doesn't watch network television.

 

[AuthenticM]

Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.

But then you run into the issue of showing, as has been done countless times before, black people being brutalized. Aren't you tired of seeing that?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I asked because you mentioned their track record of stiffing black people. I then asked you if you thought it was due to some sort of racist tendencies, especially considering the context of this show.

I mentioned no such thing, I said they have a track record of being exploitative and shlocky.

 

[hidys]

I kind of want to see what they do before I judge it.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.

This is the problem! This is the best case scenario. But why do we need more explicit premium cable envisioning of black fear, black rape, incest, mutilation and humiliation? Why is that the only way white people seem to be able to even slightly humanize blacks. Why are these the only "meaty" roles out there for black performers? Why does an alternate universe where slavers "won" (even more so then their lasting impression IRL) need to exist to remind people that this was fucking despicable? It's just profiting on black suffering, the effects of which have shaped the lives of every person in this country to this day. Are they going to air it back to back with "Comfort Women" too?

 

[Whompa02]

I mentioned no such thing, I said they have a track record of being exploitative and shlocky.

What else have they done? I never read either of their books, but Game of Thrones at least is under the HBO umbrella, so you should expect some more fringe/avant-garde content. Lot of shock value stuff. Probably what keeps them on top. This controversial new show definitely got a discussion going.

 

[excelsiorlef]

What else have they done? I never read either of their books, but Game of Thrones at least is under the HBO umbrella, so you should expect some more fringe/avant-garde content. Lot of shock value stuff. Probably what keeps them on top. This controversial new show definitely got a discussion going.

Yes and I think lots of shock stuff is wrong for this subject matter in our current climate.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This is the problem! This is the best case scenario. But why do we need more explicit premium cable envisioning of black fear, black rape, incest, mutilation and humiliation? Why is that the only way white people seem to be able to even slightly humanize blacks. Why are these the only "meaty" roles out there for black performers? Why does an alternate universe where slavers "won" (even more so then their lasting impression IRL) need to exist to remind people that this was fucking despicable? It's just profiting on black suffering, the effects of which have shaped the lives of every person in this country to this day.

Yea. I really don't think we need a TV show of the CSA

Are they going to air it back to back with "Comfort Women" too?

 

[Beefy]

I wonder how many people going "I don't see anything to worry about" are black?

 

[family_guy]

Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.

And this could just be torture porn that racist people get off of.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

And this could just be torture porn that racist people get off of.

I mean those types already got websites for that. They literally show dead black people and make jokes and celebrate. So yea, I don't see the point of the show. We all know what an alternate universe Civil War drama would be.

The most hardcore ones just become cops.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I like this Roger Ebert quote: “It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.”

It's how I approach everything I watch, regardless of subject matter. So, we will see.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I like this Roger Ebert quote: “It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.”

It's how I approach everything I watch, regardless of subject matter. So, we will see.

Well then fuck Roger Ebert, lol. He ain't had no skin in this game.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Well then fuck Roger Ebert, lol. He ain't had no skin in this game.

It's a valid (and open-minded) approach to a great many things. The GoT folks could churn out a tone-deaf dumpster fire that the wrong people end up embracing, or they put together the right team, and do something interesting and unexpected that we haven't seen before.

I'll give it a shot unless it ends up looking unsalvageable.

Problem I have with this is the same as American History X. Despicable people filmed beautifully. Just adds to the pile of footage to their library.

Yeah, American History X is a problem looking back.

 

[Enduin]

Even in a best case scenario I don't see how a show like this could be truly thoughtful or nuanced in any meaningful way. Especially under the helm of David and DB.

It's just a really dumb setting and idea, even with the best of intentions, which I very much doubt here.

MitHC already skirts good taste and is helped by the fact that in reality and concept, for the most part, Jews and other "sub-humans" weren't strung up and exterminated daily on every street corner for all to see, rather it was done in secret and removed from the public eye mostly because it was abhorrent and they knew it. Which lets them gloss over those facts and events in the show for the most part. Not to mention placing the show in America removed it from the areas of their greatest atrocities, giving them yet another an out to gloss over those facts and mainly focus on the fascist nature of the regimes and their hypothetical conflicts. Plus at least it has the illusion of asking the question of how Americans might react and conform to living under such totalitarian regimes, not that it amounts to much.

They already do a shit job in the show of actually portraying the truly perverse nature of Japanese and Nazi ideologies of racial supremacy and hierarchy. So no surprise it's just a mediocre show at best with absolutely terrible main characters, an underwhelming plot and only a few remotely interesting supporting characters. Any glimmers of interesting insights or commentary is drowned out by the banality of the rest of the show. It only tracks because of the spectacle of the setting and the sheer morbid fascination it illicits in viewers. Not because it's actually well written or does anything truly interesting or thoughtful.

I haven't watched The Handmaid's Tale, but that is at least in premise is taking real world issues that women face and then recontextualizing them in a hypercharged setting for dramatic effect and not actually based on any reality we have experienced before but what might come.

Plus The Handmaid's Tale and MitHC both were books first written by highly accomplished and intelligent writers with the purpose of examining greater issues in extreme settings for effect before becoming commercialized shows for entertainment and profit. The shows may not convey the nuance and intellect of the original works, but at least the initial genesis did. Philosophical and intellectual DB and David are not. They make shocking and titillating TV.

A show about the Confederacy winning and slaving remaining, and expanding, is just fucking dumb. There's no intelligent commentary to be found there. It's just spectacle. A shocking and provocative setting that seems edgy and pushing the envelope.

Honestly what does some fictional future offer that the actual historical setting of slavery doesn't already? What does this accomplish that a thousand other works set in the actual historical time of slavery haven't been able to?

It might, might, be one thing if racial stereotypes/prejudice and institutional racism weren't still a massive problem in American society today, but they are. So this just feels incredibly exploitative as a result. I don't think this will definitely become some wet dream for racists and bigots longing for the good ol' days, or something that will soften the image of slavery and slave owners to the general public. Though it could if really mishandled. But I do think it's just tasteless and exploitative simply because it is provocative and divisive and they know it and they know that will get buzz because of it. And that's bad enough.

 

[molnizzle]

Is The Man in the High Castle even available in Germany?

What if it were set in Germany?

 

[watershed]

Yeah this concept is kind of gross to me. I don't want to see an imaginary world where slavery is still a thing in America. I don't care how the subject matter is handled. As a POC it kind of gives me chills to think about all the ways this might play out or the fact that it's even a thing. It's like a tv show where the whole premise is rape is legal and everyone is saying "but you haven't seen it yet, give it a chance." No thanks.

 

[TheCochese]

Is The Man in the High Castle even available in Germany?

What if it were set in Germany?

So, Fatherland?

That was a good book and movie, but it dealt with the crimes remaining hidden.

 

[Gorillaz]

GOT is what it is because of the template they are using. Like I can't see an idea like this built from nowhere being handled properly by DnD

Knowing HBO they will want a sex scene/orgy/ slave master taboo shit in the first half of the pilot .

Like I can see how trash this could be from a distance with no real nuance.

 

[Not]

I hope they don't show Southerners using all the technology that would've been invented by black people

That could take me out of it

 

[duckroll]

Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.

I wouldn't worry about a character on a D&D show being relatable.

Yeah this concept is kind of gross to me. I don't want to see an imaginary world where slavery is still a thing in America. I don't care how the subject matter is handled. As a POC it kind of gives me chills to think about all the ways this might play out or the fact that it's even a thing. It's like a tv show where the whole premise is rape is legal and everyone is saying "but you haven't seen it yet, give it a chance." No thanks.

If slavery is legal, rape is legal.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I can't speak for his partner, but David Benioff is an excellent writer. Read City of Thieves for evidence of that.

 

[Figboy79]

I thought it was going to be the Turtledove books adapted to TV. Leaving sad that it is not. Really, HBO?

 

[Sweeney Tom]

@topherflorence
if hbo is really going to make a godawful show about confederate slaves in an alt-2017 let me save you the trouble here is what happens

 

[SeeThree]

Gross idea for a TV show. I hope they spend tons of money and it bombs.

Idiot "The south will rise again!" folk will be counting down to the premier.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

@topherflorence
if hbo is really going to make a godawful show about confederate slaves in an alt-2017 let me save you the trouble here is what happens

This kind of reactionarily faux-socially conscious approach to art is much "grosser" than the possibility that a show about a sensitive subject may end up being bad, tbh.

Ebert's statement earlier in the thread is correct - a show is not bad because of WHAT it is about, but how it is about it.

I suspect the show will be bad, because fuck HBO, but the notion that art is "beneath" certain subjects because of current political and social concerns is rotten to the core.

 

[ghstwrld]

lol

 

[Fuchsdh]

I immediately started looking for his name, ha ha.

It sounds like this is going to be a more modern vision of the idea if conglomerates and demilitarized zones are any indication, unlike Timeline-191. Which I think is kind of dumb and requires a lot of hoop-jumping - even in the most fantastic alternate history scenarios the Confederacy wouldn't be able to last more than a century on its own. It just wasn't a viable state.

Yeah that's what bothers me about this in its conception. It seems like it's trying to tie into modern concerns (role of corporations) into alternate history, but I don't see based on (the admittedly little we know) how they figure American slavery as envisioned by the Confederacy was supposed to persist into the 21st century. So it seems like they're leaning into Black Mirror-level "yeah this makes no sense, but roll with it" territory.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This kind of reactionarily faux-socially conscious approach to art is much "grosser" than the possibility that a show about a sensitive subject may end up being bad, tbh.

Ebert's statement earlier in the thread is correct - a show is not bad because of WHAT it is about, but how it is about it.

I suspect the show will be bad, because fuck HBO, but the notion that art is "beneath" certain subjects because of current political and social concerns is rotten to the core.

And umm that's what is being lampooned in that image.


There's literally no reason to believe D&D have the knowledge, skill or tact to pull off the "how you do it" properly.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

And umm that's what is being lampooned in that image.


There's literally no reason to believe D&D have the knowledge, skill or tact to pull off the "how you do it" properly.

That's fine (although the extent to which they will defer to their writers is currently unknown), but there are people acting like the very concept is unworthy and problematic (see: "Fuck Ebert"), or suggesting that somehow it's worse to do it because Trump is president, or other assorted nonsense that has nothing to do with whether or not the show will actually be any good. Moreover, a bad, tasteless TV show is pretty unlikely to have much of an impact that not watching it won't fix.

 

[Nipo]

Has anyone spoken about how much the show idea was inspired by man in the high castle? Seems like a similar idea except with racist white supremacists instead of nazis.

 

[ryseing]

AV Club: Can we just stop fantasizing about the South winning the Civil War?

But the major differences between those two scenarios—and the reason Confederate has been met with such swift controversy—is that, with the exception of a handful of white nationalist trolls, ”What if the Nazis won?" is near-universally a horror story, a hypothetical about the triumph of evil that examines just how close the world came to succumbing to its darkest impulses, and a warning to never allow fascism to prey on those weaknesses again. On the other hand, imagining an America where black people are still slaves is really only an exaggerated deviation from the present—a fact that HBO and Confederate's showrunners are definitely counting on, clearly hoping that the series will have the same timely ring as The Handmaid's Tale, The Man In The High Castle, et al. with their depictions of authoritarian rule. With racism becoming even more emboldened, cops killing black people in the streets, the prison industrial system trapping them for life, the stars-and-bars still flying all across the South, and the President Of The United States earning endorsements from David Fucking Duke, Confederate is similarly, clearly intended to be a commentary on our current political climate. Yet unlike the Nazi scenario, even the showrunners seem to be aware that, for an alarming number of Americans, putting black people back in chains reads less like a nightmare than a daydream.

I think Underground Airlines (which I loved) was the exception that proved the rule. It's a topic that has been well trod and offers no value to our current society. Fuck, I saw a Confederate flag hanging on my parent's neighbor's house last week.

The Confederacy lost the actual war but it appears that it won the hearts and minds war.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

 

[Bronx-Man]

With racism becoming even more emboldened, cops killing black people in the streets, the prison industrial system trapping them for life, the stars-and-bars still flying all across the South, and the President Of The United States earning endorsements from David Fucking Duke, Confederate is similarly, clearly intended to be a commentary on our current political climate. Yet unlike the Nazi scenario, even the showrunners seem to be aware that, for an alarming number of Americans, putting black people back in chains reads less like a nightmare than a daydream.

Bingo.

 

[KingK]

Do not want. David and Dan fucking suck, I don't trust them one bit to handle this well at all. GoT is a decent/good show in spite of them, not because of them. I can't imagine them coming up with anything of worth without good source material to work with.

Also this was my first thought.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

What a horrible time in people's lives to think of this concept.

I mean, it's a horrible concept at any point personally, but they couldn't have picked a worse point in time.

 

[Mr Git]

I expect them to examine history and then ignore it whilst redacting lots of important and interesting storylines.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's fine (although the extent to which they will defer to their writers is currently unknown), but there are people acting like the very concept is unworthy and problematic (see: "Fuck Ebert"), or suggesting that somehow it's worse to do it because Trump is president, or other assorted nonsense that has nothing to do with whether or not the show will actually be any good. Moreover, a bad, tasteless TV show is pretty unlikely to have much of an impact that not watching it won't fix.

Doing it in this current climate I argue is part and parcel with the concept of "How to do it". When ties in to how

AV Club: Can we just stop fantasizing about the South winning the Civil War?



I think Underground Airlines (which I loved) was the exception that proved the rule. It's a topic that has been well trod and offers no value to our current society. Fuck, I saw a Confederate flag hanging on my parent's neighbor's house last week.

The Confederacy lost the actual war but it appears that it won the hearts and minds war.

That paragraph you quoted is 100% bang on

 

[Mister Wolf]

Oh look the slave owner has a family they care about and would do anything for. Oh the slave owner is really funny and charming. Oh this slave owner is being nice to his slaves so they can't be all bad. Oh this slave owner as a sense of honor about them.

Thomas Motherfucking Jefferson.