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HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part 1 OT | Endure & Survive
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Ulysses 31
Member
That explanation doesn't quite work for me because Bill in the game is so stuck in his ways that he doesn't want to leave town to the point of destroying relationships, Joel doesn't seem to have that issue.
MMaRsu
Member
Joel in the game isnt really ready to open up to anyone at that point. In fact we never see him express any kind of love with Tess outright either. Bill is so stuck in his ways. And so is Joel!
Ulysses 31
Member
He was rigid but he and Tess eventually grew close, so close that he was willing to die with her fighting FEDRA. Seems like the opposite of what happened to game Bill and Frank.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
They don't need to be on screen together because we know Joel and Tess had some form of a relationship. We know Joel refused to love anyone else after losing his daughter Sarah, and we also know that Tess loved Joel when she said, "I never ask you for anything, not to feel the way I felt."
By episode 3, we know Tess loved Joel and now we know how much that letter hurt Joel after Tess died.
How often do you think gamers thought about Bill after leaving his town? I'm sure the percentage is low. The audience is way more likely to remember Bill going forward because it has a direct connection with Ellie and Joel's advantage.
Or what about the Episode 2 flashback? They didn't need to create the flashback for us to believe in the outbreak. Joel telling Ellie what happened in episode 3 would have been enough.
You don't NEED to do these things, but you can tell a better story by doing it.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Well, it worked just fine in the game that we never see how Bill and Frank met or how Joel met Tess.
Maybe I'm just sour from not seeing Bill town from the game...
How relevant is Bill's story in the game relevant to Joel and Ellie's characters in the game?
Bill's words in the game were quoted more often in The Last of Us Part II than anything else because what he said actually came true.
He was literally given an episode dedicated to him.
Ulysses 31
Member
Probably not that much, Bill seemed more in service of world building and some character development with his interactions with Joel and Ellie. Maybe there was some subtext of ending up hurt and alone if you're too rigid but the set pieces seems to make that segment the most memorable.
IMO in the game, the bonding generally happens when you're fighting for your survival together with others. So even if Joel is still in a place where he wants to get rid of Ellie, he's closer to accepting her as a daughter after Bill town than he was before because of surviving with her and not so much because of Bill.
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Tripolygon
Banned
Good question, let's put it to the test.
Yes i also tried using search everywhere and there is no Bill or Frank discussed outside Nick Offerman playing the character. There is more mention of Bill in this thread than has ever been in 10 years of TLOU. All of a sudden gamers love Bill so much. They just love the funny banter between Bill and Ellie that lasted less than a minute.
Majormaxxx
Member
It's exciting to think how our expectations will be subverted in season 2. Oooh boy.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
The fact that you keep talking about how Joel got closer to Ellie in Bill's town and NOT Bill himself shows how less relevant he was in the game.
I'm not saying his story is bad in the game, but I'm saying that his story has far less impact on Joel and Ellie's journey compared to the HBO show.
The purpose of fleshing out characters is to make them more meaningful to the overall plot of the story. If you have an opportunity to do this, then you do it.
Ulysses 31
Member
See my edit.
IMO game Bill was not fleshed out though, he's replaced with another character named Bill in the show. You think that version has more impact on TV Joel, fair enough.
Personally I would've preferred to see the Bill town from the game.
Grildon Tundy
Member
I'm thinking we'll see Ellie discover both time travel and golf club helmets, then watch as she goes back and changes the timeline
Majormaxxx
Member
This was a genuinely funny comment. Cheers buddy
That's not Bill lol. That episode has a Gay Romance Protagonist. Bill was a badass, untrusting, funny, asshole, who put survival first who happened to be gay or bi but they didnt make a big deal about it because guess what, NOBODY SHOULD its like having brown hair, no one should care, if you make that a central part of your personal identity you are BORING (also side note in the game it was way more interesting that their partnership was on the rocks, it also was more interesting to see Bill kind of struggle with being open about how he is, in generally he was very coy about it in a way like he might have not been gay/bi before Frank and wasnt comfortable about being open about it (but I think Joel and Tess could just tell without being told which is why he wasnt surprised at Ellie's comment)). Also even if we grade the episode as a romance its terrible (which 90% of the time they are), they fall in love in like 2 minutes lol, it's not romantic its just stupid. That episode is a mockery of the best side character in the Last of Us.
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Swift_Star
Banned
Oh? So you think going out to shoot raiders that fell on your flame trap while protecting your loved one isn’t a badass atitude?
And being gay is not the central part of bill’s personality, as it was shown he’s paranoid and anarchist just like in the game, he also learned to be loving and caring. He’s a multifaceted and complex character in the show. You really don’t understand Bill, I’m sorry.
Let me add some stuff more here: he also puts survival over everything as shown by him always with the gun the whole dinner he was with Joel and Tess. He’s nervous, hard to trust people…
He also has lots of traps around his place to protect him from raiders and infected.
Yeah, he checks every single characteristic you’ve listed.
And just so you know, the ones that are making a fuss about Bill being gay aren’t us, it’s you by going on this rant and not being able to deal with the fact they wanted to give more lore to a beloved character rather than make another shoot shoot pew pew episode.
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PaddyOCanager
Member
There were tons of potential angles to expand on their in-game story. I was interested in seeing it, but they didn't do it. I think it had more potential than this boring love story.
Ok, so do it in the show? This is a myopic view of storytelling - distilling everything down to either love or hate. They went for a tropey love story; I would've been just as disappointed in seeing the one-dimensional hate story you outlined.
I simply don't see the game in the way you do and that's fine. I'll just agree to disagree.
Except he doesn't - not to Joel, only to the audience. Implications and a letter meant to serve as a post-hoc substitute didn't work for me. It's just a cheap way for the writers to propel Joel's character growth.
Good storytelling shows, it doesn't tell. You are filling in gaps in a relationship that didn't actually transpire on screen.
This is coming directly off an episode where Tess gets infected, and Joel's first reaction is to recoil and reach toward his gun when she steps toward him. I'm supposed to believe he had some kind of kinship with Bill offscreen now? He didn't even want to take her to Bill & Frank when Tess asked him to, she had to convince him with her dying wish.
Bill's town in the show speedruns Joel's character development with Bill's letter. We are heading into episode 4 and so far Joel and Ellie have zero chemistry established.
Swift_Star
Banned
Yes he had this kinship as evidenced by the radio on the first episode. How have you missed this?
Zero chemistry? Are you paying attention to the show at all?
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is my biggest issue with the show.
Billbofet
Member
This is kind of my issue as well. All the flashbacks, prologues, and Bill's backstory have all been way more powerful and interesting to me so far.
I feel it's an ingenious way to world-build vs. having Joel and Ellie exposition dump every five minutes, so I have faith that part will strengthen.
PaddyOCanager
Member
I have not missed this - the radio means literally nothing in regard to kinship between Joel, Bill & Frank. Tess was the one to establish contact and talks with Frank.
I'm not paying attention to the show at all? I'm not the only one with this criticism of the show. If you feel differently that's fine, but don't try and gaslight others you disagree with.
Swift_Star
Banned
Sorry, Joel understood the codes and it was not only for Tess and Frank, obviously. don’t gaslight me just because I’m telling you clearly are not seeing the development of their relationship, Watch the episodes again.
Tripolygon
Banned
You keep saying more potential but you aren't saying what. The show expanded Bill and Frank beyond what the game could do in terms of story and gameplay wise. The character moments of Bill lasted ~10 minutes of cutscene in the game. And Frank got less than 2 minutes of that.
Frank doesn't hate Bill in the show. It is a much better story.
You are the one clearly being very myopic. You want the story as it was portrayed in the game, what is more myopic than that? It is the same story told differently, instead of from a cynical perspective but from an optimistic perspective. The story as told in the game is one of hate while the one from the show is one of love, two sides of the same coin.
You can agree to disagree but that is the story that was told by the author. It is a story about connection, i mean Joel literally bonded with Ellie and saved her from the fireflies even though she was supposed to be just cargo. How can you not see that it is a story about connection?
Of course it does. Episode one establishes Joel and Tess having people they keep in communication with on the radio and have a signal for when things are going wrong, meaning Joel and Tess would go and help them out. Joel says, i can give you a spool of high tensile aluminium that could last them the rest of your lives. He cautions Bill that raiders will come for what they have there and Tess laments on how nice it is to have a civilized dinner. Joel talks about how Frank is a good person and Tess trusted them enough to ask Joel to take Ellie there.
The story is about connections.
I find this rather ironic no? First you criticize the story for showing you the love between Bill and Frank, something about it not being nuanced and now you say a good story shows and doesn't tell, even though they show you the connection between the characters through visuals and subtext. Joel has the code to Bill's town, that is subtext that they trust them even before Bill says i respect you and we are sort of friends in the letter.
Fear is a valid response in that situation. It is an unscripted acting choice by Pedro Pascal. The same Joel bashed his neighbors head in and instructed Tommy to ignore those people with children on the side of the road.
He did not want to go on this whole trip to begin with, Tess had to drag him into it from the start and along the way. Same as the game.
No it doesn't.
They have plenty of chemistry, that's what everyone is loving about the show so far.
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Swift_Star
Banned
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
The Last of Us director wanted to ‘trick’ viewers into watching gay romance
Acclaimed episode was directed by ‘It’s a Sin’’s Peter Hoar
www.independent.co.uk
ipukespiders
Member
All I could think of during EP 03
Spokker
Member
All I remember is the pages sticking together.
Swift_Star
Banned
Very good interview, I’ll quote some parts[/URL]
Director was like
Nice approach, I like when they do this and it’s well executed. I didn’t see it coming and loved it.
I particularly like how he understand the character of Bill. Being tense, not trusting anyone, having been raised in a bubble. Very good, indeed.
This interview raised immensely my respect for the showrunners.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
ShadowNate
Member
I would add to the radio communication system, (which btw the radio seems constantly on tuned to Frank's frequency, or at least on for a while before they head out to an excursion outside QZ), that:
Tess in her final moments immediately suggests Bill and Frank as trusted people who would offer help.
Bill in what he thought was his final moments insisted that Frank reaches out to Joel who he believed would protect Frank.
So we have had significant explicit clues on what Joel's and Tess's relationship was with Frank and Bill before this episode, before we were shown the flashback to connect the dots and offer additional info and immediate interaction. Which was also a flashback of their very first meetup when Bill was still very much distrusting and opposing a possible cooperation with them, while later on, as has been pointed out already, Joel got codes for opening the perimeter door, and Bill wrote Joel his final letter, and left him access to all his secured stuff.
Tess in her final moments immediately suggests Bill and Frank as trusted people who would offer help.
Bill in what he thought was his final moments insisted that Frank reaches out to Joel who he believed would protect Frank.
So we have had significant explicit clues on what Joel's and Tess's relationship was with Frank and Bill before this episode, before we were shown the flashback to connect the dots and offer additional info and immediate interaction. Which was also a flashback of their very first meetup when Bill was still very much distrusting and opposing a possible cooperation with them, while later on, as has been pointed out already, Joel got codes for opening the perimeter door, and Bill wrote Joel his final letter, and left him access to all his secured stuff.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Dunno if this was posted yet…
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Please trick me into watching some action setpieces next week. I know the game doesnt get going until Pittsburgh which is next week but Boston had that upside down setpiece and the bloater fight before shit really hit the fan in Pittsburgh.Director was likeThe Last of Us director wanted to ‘trick’ viewers into watching gay romance
Acclaimed episode was directed by ‘It’s a Sin’’s Peter Hoar
ShadowNate
Member
Maybe that's what they were going for (that Joel is wearing Frank's shirt after his shower), but on quick inspection... not the same shirt.
Dunno if this was posted yet…
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
….wat? What’s the difference I’m missing?
Oh I see, the pattern isn’t lined up exactly the same. Probably different sizes for different actors but I think you’re right it’s meant to be the same shirt in the show
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ShadowNate
Member
Button placement (the top buttons that in Joel's line up) and also the shoulders' additional cloth layer in Frank's.
The only thing I agree with you is the how quickly the romance was it felt off even if it was a straight couple.
I mean you kind of said it all here. He was gay in the video game and had a whole episode dedicated to him on the show. You said it's not a big deal that the video game didn't make Bill being gay the focus point but that's literally the whole point! Being gay is not a big deal but unfortunately it still is for some people in today's society, clearly. If it was the same exact episode played out but with a women instead I'm sure a lot of comments here would be different.
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If it were a women it would also be boring and annoying since I wanna see Bill not a dumb romance. The extra point that makes it even more annoying is you know the WHY its here and how its shoved in your face AND there's the fact that pretty much everything goes after this Social Currency now so it just makes it more annoying reminds me how much I hate it taking me out of the story in so many shows/stories. I miss artistic integrity, it is so hard to find now.
If you want an actual interesting non agenda pushing gay "romance" (If you wanna call it that) watch Hannibal that's probably the best one I can think of that made a lot of sense with the story actually.
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Chiggs
Gold Member
It also cost the movie "Arrival" an Oscar nomination.
https://variety.com/2016/film/in-co...val-manchester-by-the-sea-silence-1201941479/
It's horribly overused to the point of being laughable...kind of like hearing Jimi Hendrix or Creedence Clearwater in a Vietnam film.
Also, to some of the troopers here that feel compelled to defend the episode at every conceivable turn, perhaps you've haven't seen very many love stories? That's not a slam or anything. But maybe you're just like the people tearing up at Max Richter's music? Understandable the first couple of times, right?
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ShadowNate
Member
Personally speaking, the parts in the episode that I found had the emotional impact on me were directly before and after the music segment. Offerman's look while Frank's explaining his plan, and then the serving of plates at the dinner reminiscent of their first day.
I didn't partucularly remember the song from before (now I know it's apparently well known and, for some, overused) and I am kind of not a fan of it, even though I did listen to it separately as well from a previous youtube post in this thread.
So, in fewer words, "eh".
I didn't partucularly remember the song from before (now I know it's apparently well known and, for some, overused) and I am kind of not a fan of it, even though I did listen to it separately as well from a previous youtube post in this thread.
So, in fewer words, "eh".
Chiggs
Gold Member
Well, that was just superb acting from Offerman. I don't know how many tries it took to achieve that, but I completely agree with you there. Tough to watch, actually.
What bothers me about Frank's plan, and which was a part of my initial critique, is that we don't really get to see him truly suffer from his ailment. Yes, we see that he enjoys jogging and painting, and then later we see him having issues with his pill bag...then using a straw to drink. But all of that just struck me as remarkably lightweight. And no, I'm not discounting the wheelchair...but plenty of people live meaningful lives with wheelchairs.
Choosing to take your own life is an incredibly serious decision, and having read some accounts of married couples forced into assisted suicide scenarios, the choice to move forward with such a decision is usually prompted by 1) terrible suffering, and 2) wanting to leave on your own terms...and with dignity.
Despite his physical ailments, Frank still seemed quite capable of keeping Bill company, and given how bleak the world was, wanting to throw in the towel and leave his partner alone just seemed forced. The episode was already long, and so I feel that we could have gotten more to really hammer home the impact--and necessity--of making such a gut-wrenching decision.
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PaddyOCanager
Member
I don't want to sit here and rewrite the episode - I expected it to be told well by professionals, and it just wasn't. If you think this is the best story that could've been told for Bill and Frank, then you need to read/watch better stories. This was a paint by numbers, tropey love story we've all seen iterations of before. I don't need to belabor that point, it's just the truth.
No, I just want a good story. Again, you are acting like this has to be black or white - cynical vs optimistic, love vs hate. Either I want it exactly like the game or not at all. I can't think of anything more myopic than this perspective.
I'm not oblivious to the theme of connection. I just don't agree with your characterization of the story which reduces it to something so basic.
I'm not criticizing the love between Bill and Frank - that part was sorely missing from the game. I'm criticizing the show-runners taking what could have been a very complex and interesting story and distilling it down to a tropey boring love story. When I said show vs tell, yes I'm talking about the letter - the writers are telling us there is a relationship between Joel and Bill that hasn't been shown. If the subtext of gate codes and the radio were all you needed to get there, then fine. It didn't work for me, and it came at the expense of other storytelling opportunities.
I don't feel it, but if everyone else does then great. I'll take this show a million times over the other terrible video game adaptations we've been given.
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Katajx
Member
Oh shit, do you think this means something for season 2?
Dunno if this was posted yet…
DeaDPo0L84
Member
Guy on the right looks more like Joel then Joel.
Dunno if this was posted yet…
I said I wasn't going to watch this show after seeing ep1, but after hearing so much about ep3 I watched it with my friend.
I REALLY liked it. I know this is practically a different dimension (compared to the game), but I'm glad they chose to represent Bill this way. It really serves the show well, IMHO.
It was also the best representation of a gay relationship, I've seen in media.
I kind of want to watch the show now.
I REALLY liked it. I know this is practically a different dimension (compared to the game), but I'm glad they chose to represent Bill this way. It really serves the show well, IMHO.
It was also the best representation of a gay relationship, I've seen in media.
I kind of want to watch the show now.
I think they are hinting that they intend on a season 2 after
They show Ellies ruthlessness killing the clicker, in the beginning. It may be hinting at what she'll become.
Slothbeing1209
Member
Small clip of Ep 4 at the end.
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Finally been able to catch up on this thread, man it's like 20 pages since the last episode.
Holy shit what an episode! That was beautifully told and acted. Not sure how people could not cry at least once during that episode. Big swing and deviation from the source material but damn was it worth it. Great chemistry between Bill and Frank, and though brief the interaction between Joel and Bill was really entertaining.
For me that's the first episode that really felt like the Last of Us, showing human stories and relationships. While Episode 2 was good it still felt like a run of the mill zombie shooter/set pieces kind of show. This episode really felt necessary to differentiate itself from those other shows. Also it can't be like the game where it's all told through environmental storytelling. Can't have them just walking for entire episodes. We still got some of those elements of the game in this episode with Ellie and Joel scavenging for supplies in the beginning.
For people complaining that we didn't get the upside down shootout or bloater scene, we know the bloaters are coming later on. I also don't see why they couldn't draw inspiration from the upside down shootout and incorporate it into another scene. My main complaint with the episode is that the location was much less interesting than in the game. But it makes sense in showing that contrast of the world going to shit and then having this pristine Americana suburb taken out of the 50s.
Also for those saying that it was a graphic episode? LOL y'all haven't watched White Lotus have you? This was a very dignified and well shot episode showing a loving relationship between two men
Holy shit what an episode! That was beautifully told and acted. Not sure how people could not cry at least once during that episode. Big swing and deviation from the source material but damn was it worth it. Great chemistry between Bill and Frank, and though brief the interaction between Joel and Bill was really entertaining.
For me that's the first episode that really felt like the Last of Us, showing human stories and relationships. While Episode 2 was good it still felt like a run of the mill zombie shooter/set pieces kind of show. This episode really felt necessary to differentiate itself from those other shows. Also it can't be like the game where it's all told through environmental storytelling. Can't have them just walking for entire episodes. We still got some of those elements of the game in this episode with Ellie and Joel scavenging for supplies in the beginning.
For people complaining that we didn't get the upside down shootout or bloater scene, we know the bloaters are coming later on. I also don't see why they couldn't draw inspiration from the upside down shootout and incorporate it into another scene. My main complaint with the episode is that the location was much less interesting than in the game. But it makes sense in showing that contrast of the world going to shit and then having this pristine Americana suburb taken out of the 50s.
Also for those saying that it was a graphic episode? LOL y'all haven't watched White Lotus have you? This was a very dignified and well shot episode showing a loving relationship between two men