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[Big Baller]

So when does Joel start carrying around ladders and pallets

 

[Topher]

So when does Joel start carrying around ladders and pallets

Would be hilarious to have a scene where Joel is searching every corner for a way out of some room and Ellie is just standing there staring at the exit.

 

[saintjules]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoP6vzwJRlf/?igshid=NTdlMDg3MTY=

 

[Fools idol]

what are you guys watching to dull the wait between episodes? I need something good.

 

[Represent.]

what are you guys watching to dull the wait between episodes? I need something good.

I'll say it again. If you need some zombie action

Watch the first 10 minutes of season 2 right now

 

[El Pistolero]

I know im talking way in advance but considering Season 2 is coming out at some point wit the events of TLOU 2, only thing that will stick out is that the real life Ellie wont evolve physically. I liekd the transition from walking around with a youngster Ellie and in part 2 she got lankier, mora adult like etc. Bella is already 19 so at least physically she wont really change.

My line of thinking as well. Ellie is more imposing physically in the sequel, which partially helps with the suspension of disbelief around the savage acts she commits in the name of vengeance. I think that another actress should be chosen to portray the 19 years old version of her in the other seasons...though they can work around it by limiting the murderous encounters.

 

[Represent.]

lmao I really said that huh

 

[Fools idol]

I'll say it again. If you need some zombie action

Watch the first 10 minutes of season 2 right now

Already seen it mate.. it's good!

Anything else?

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

I decided to see episode 3 with my wife (I skipped the parts that made us uncomfortable, sorry if that offends you). And I still was surprised to see it was a great story. The way Bill and Frank cared for each other and their relationship with Joel and Tess were pretty cool.

More like, I'm sorry it offends you. Excited to see where the story goes nonetheless.

 

[Romulus]

 

[Lunarorbit]

Damn, she's a babe. After all the ridiculousness over Abby in the game I never bothered to look up the actress. This is hilarious. That's a beautiful area too.

 

[Slothbeing1209]

what are you guys watching to dull the wait between episodes? I need something good.

I'm watching some Korean thriller movies. Totally recommended if you're into that gerne and haven't seen. Old boy, I saw the devil, the chaser, parasite,..

 

[Stooky]

Mmm last of us thread, finding controversy over generally a well received moment…… we’re hitting peak gaf! Doesn’t get any better than this norm! Dosent.get.any.better.than.this!

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Think people will be fairly happy with the pacing for the rest of the show

Episode 4 - Kansas City replacing Pittsburgh, closer introduction to Hunters, Henry and Sam
Episode 5 - Jackson, Wyoming/Cabin Shootout
Episode 6 - University
Episode 7 - Left Behind
Episode 8 - David's Group
Episode 9 - Firefly Hospital

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Think people will be fairly happy with the pacing for the rest of the show

Episode 4 - Kansas City replacing Pittsburgh, closer introduction to Hunters, Henry and Sam
Episode 5 - Jackson, Wyoming/Cabin Shootout
Episode 6 - University
Episode 7 - Left Behind
Episode 8 - David's Group
Episode 9 - Firefly Hospital

confirmed?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

My line of thinking as well. Ellie is more imposing physically in the sequel, which partially helps the suspension of disbelief tied to the savage acts she commits in the name of vengeance. I think that another actress should be chosen to portray the 19 years old version of her in the other seasons...though they can work around it by limiting the murderous encounters.

I think Bella Ramsey is doing a great job in season 1 and I agree with you completely that she should be recast in season 2.

It's a tough call, but this actress might need to be able to play a convincing Ellie for multiple more seasons to come. I think it's really risky to keep Ramsey here because she isn't like to age into the look of the role. Think you need more of a Hailee Steinfeld type.

Compare how Bella Ramsey (I think age 18 during filming) looks now compared to Jennifer Lawrence when she did the first Hunger Games (age 20 when filming began)

Lawrence looks significantly older. I'm sure they can do a lot with clothing, and makeup, but there is only so much you can do, so we'll see.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

confirmed?

No, I'm speculating based on the episodes left and the remaining chapters in the game plus DLC that we know will be covered in the show.

You can kind of tell how the intensity is going to ramp up. Each episode is going to have a fairly significant close. It's actually interesting how little involvement the infected might have across the rest of the show.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yea the third episode could of been Broke Back Mountain 2. I do not mind they show he was in a relationship but they did not need to spend nearly a whole epsiode on it. The Last of US is a story about survival not bro-mance. If they spend maybe 15-20 mins on their whole relastionship it would not be a problem. My issue is the focus of the show was totally derailed for this one. By far the weakest episode so far. Most of the love is because of the whole LGBT++++++++++ support of the show. I felt it was an episode out of place while also agenda pushing.

I think the problem with TV series like this is they got a certain amount of budget and the writers and directors are mandated to make a certain amount of episodes. So when they run low on content, they got to do filler use up episodes. And it is always something not core to the plot and often doesn't involve the main cast.

Historically, TV shows would have orders of I think 24 episodes for a full year and a half season is 12. Game of Thrones had exactly 10 episodes for the first bunch of seasons and only dropped to 6 or 7 the last few. By the looks of it HBO mandated 10 episodes most of the time. Who says 10, 12, or 24 is the right number? Sounds like an arbitrary number to hit a certain threshold or budget. I'm sure the writers could had made GOT flow smoother if they had the flexibility to makes seasons how ever long they want. But it seemed like 10 was a hard number.

The Punisher on NF was the worst I've ever seen. There was more action in an episode of Knight Rider and KITT doing turbo jumps over bushy shrubs than Frank Castle busting heads.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think the problem with TV series like this is they got a certain amount of budget and the writers and directors are mandated to make a certain amount of episodes. So when they run low on content, they got to do filler use up episodes. And it is always something not core to the plot and often doesn't involve the main cast.

Historically, TV shows would have orders of I think 24 episodes for a full year and a half season is 12. Game of Thrones had exactly 10 episodes for the first bunch of seasons and only dropped to 6 or 7 the last few. By the looks of it HBO mandated 10 episodes most of the time. Who says 10, 12, or 24 is the right number? Sounds like an arbitrary number to hit a certain threshold or budget. I'm sure the writers could had made GOT flow smoother if they had the flexibility to makes seasons how ever long they want. But it seemed like 10 was a hard number.

The Punisher on NF was the worst I've ever seen. There was more action in an episode of Knight Rider and KITT doing turbo jumps over bushy shrubs than Frank Castle busting heads.

Think you're off base here.

First, the episode wasn't filler. Maybe you're a bit new to prestige tv, which isn't a bad thing, but what Maizin and Druckmann are looking for here is payoff.

They hope the investment in episode 3 pays off in later episodes, particularly the finale.

People were very conflicted with Joel's decision to kill the fireflies and save Ellie in the game, so here they're trying to rectify that by giving credence to Bill's letter to joel. "That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do.” The letter implies Joel's job is to keep Tess safe, a job Bill doesn't know (but Joel does) that Joel has already failed to do and he probably also does know that Joel's already failed at his most important job once before (but again, Joel does).

By the end of the season, Joel won't let himself fail a 3rd time. The game doesn't really put Tess' death on Joel much at all. So we don't really see Joel striking out twice, only once with Sarah. This adds more weight to his failures and you don't get the length that Bill would go through to save Frank in the original story, and thus it's near impossible for Bill's character to build towards that weight without their backstory.

In summary what are the showrunners trying to do;

Add more weight to Joel's suffering and feelings of failure so that people understand him more

How do you add more weight? By having a character identify his failures (through Joel's and the audience's eyes) and give breath to those failures but also the absolute distance that a character can go to keep those around him safe.

You can tell in this version Joel is much more closed off than in the game and when he opens up to Ellie in the show, it should be very clear to viewers that when David takes Ellie, that Joel is determined not to fail again. That is done through Bill's story.

Also, HBO didn't dictate the season lengths and Netflix really doesn't either. You see episodes of mixed length and seasons of mixed length all the time and their episodes as you mentioned are already more limited in number than most broadcast TV.

D and D rushed Game of Thrones because they wanted to work on other material for more money.

TLOU was originally supposed to be 10 episodes, HBO let them combine episodes 1 and 2 together so it turned into 9.

 

[SlimySnake]

what are you guys watching to dull the wait between episodes? I need something good.

Watch Euphoria. One of the best shows ive ever seen. Absolutely insane. It puts LGBT romance front and center and yet the characters, cinematography and a frantic directing keeps the focus on the story.

 

[SlimySnake]

Think people will be fairly happy with the pacing for the rest of the show

Well, it depends on what they do with those sections. The game is setpiece after setpiece after you get to Pittsburgh but as we saw in Episode 2 and Episode 3, they are going to have maybe 1-2 action scenes per episode. Im expecting them to flesh out the world a lot more with flashbacks, cold opens and other detours.

Otherwise, we are going to have a really rough time getting attached to Ellie and Joel because tbh, i still dont feel like they have done a good job with the characterization of either character. That makes the Bill/Frank detour even more baffling because this was the episode where Ellie and Joel were supposed to really connect and start to work together. If anything, i think they shouldve used this episode to tell us the Riley/Ellie amusement park story. Thats your LGBT romance AND it helps develop her character arc. The time spent on her backstory is far more productive than two characters who literally fucking die in the same episode and have zero role to play in the rest of the story. At least, Riley dying leaves Ellie with survivor's guilt which partially sets up the ending.

I guess they will show it during the winter sequence like in the DLC, but this was the perfect time to tell that story. Especially considering the fact that they have so far failed to make Ellie likeable and have managed to turn her into a sadistic psychopath who likes to torture zombies and enjoys watching soldiers get beaten to death.

 

[I_D]

I'll say it again. If you need some zombie action

Watch the first 10 minutes of season 2 right now

I REALLY hope there's a season 3. This is the best zombie show ever made.

And that this is the prequel to Z Nation is ridiculous, given how different they are.

 

[Lord Panda]

Already seen it mate.. it's good!

Anything else?

If you're into fantasy/drama, House of the Dragon is surprisingly great.

If you're into drama, then Better Call Saul (and Breaking Bad), Severance are great watches.

If you're into comedy, and you want to lose some braincells and want to hate the world even more, then Rings of Power should be up your alley.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

I think Bella Ramsey is doing a great job in season 1 and I agree with you completely that she should be recast in season 2.

Personally I don’t buy her as Ellie. First she looks way older than 14 and indeed the actress is 19. On top of that her British accent comes out a few times which can be distracting.

So far peak Walking Dead is still the best zombie apocalypse TV show.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Well, it depends on what they do with those sections. The game is setpiece after setpiece after you get to Pittsburgh but as we saw in Episode 2 and Episode 3, they are going to have maybe 1-2 action scenes per episode. Im expecting them to flesh out the world a lot more with flashbacks, cold opens and other detours.

Otherwise, we are going to have a really rough time getting attached to Ellie and Joel because tbh, i still dont feel like they have done a good job with the characterization of either character. That makes the Bill/Frank detour even more baffling because this was the episode where Ellie and Joel were supposed to really connect and start to work together. If anything, i think they shouldve used this episode to tell us the Riley/Ellie amusement park story. Thats your LGBT romance AND it helps develop her character arc. The time spent on her backstory is far more productive than two characters who literally fucking die in the same episode and have zero role to play in the rest of the story. At least, Riley dying leaves Ellie with survivor's guilt which partially sets up the ending.

I guess they will show it during the winter sequence like in the DLC, but this was the perfect time to tell that story. Especially considering the fact that they have so far failed to make Ellie likeable and have managed to turn her into a sadistic psychopath who likes to torture zombies and enjoys watching soldiers get beaten to death.

I don't completely disagree with you, but some of your takes reflect that you're missing things.

Ellie isn't shown as sadistic but rather a realistic portrayal of a scared kid who has grown up in a post-apocalyptic world.

That she leaned in to see Joel beating the soldier is to contract her innocence against Sarah's who is more taken aback watching her father hit an old woman in the head with a wrench. They come from two different worlds. Ellie is seeing what it takes to survive in this world. Note she's already at this point experienced loss and it terrifies her.

After Tess dies and the other loss she has experienced her fears become paramount. That's why she keeps asking them if they're going to be okay or if there are bad things. She's frightened. She cut up the infected so that she could take back an element of control because her fear is about not being able to control situations and being unable to protect herself and those around her. She knows she's immune, but she's still scared for others. That's why she wants a gun, so she can participate in the protecting. It's interesting that you realize that she has survivor's guilt but still couldn't pick up on the rest...

You're baffled by the Bill backstory probably because you side with Joel's big decision, but here the writers wanted to frame it more that he doesn't have a choice and that keeping Ellie alive is his only mission after his failures.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Personally I don’t buy her as Ellie. First she looks way older than 14 and indeed the actress is 19. On top of that her British accent comes out a few times which can be distracting.

So far peak Walking Dead is still the best zombie apocalypse TV show.

I think you have some sort of reverse recency bias, because the acting here is far and away better than the walking dead and so is pretty much every element of the show.

Compare Bella Ramsey to Chandler Riggs.... lol

 

[Fbh]

Well episode 3 was pretty fucking boring.

Hopefully things pick up next episode, show had been solid until now.

 

[Represent.]

I REALLY hope there's a season 3. This is the best zombie show ever made.

And that this is the prequel to Z Nation is ridiculous, given how different they are.

Yep. Sad I haven’t heard anything about a season 3.

The cinematography is on a whole different level from everything else in the genre. Really takes it to another level

 

[The Fartist]

I'll say it again. If you need some zombie action

Watch the first 10 minutes of season 2 right now

Is season 1 worth watching?

 

[DForce]

Think you're off base here.

First, the episode wasn't filler. Maybe you're a bit new to prestige tv, which isn't a bad thing, but what Maizin and Druckmann are looking for here is payoff.

They hope the investment in episode 3 pays off in later episodes, particularly the finale.

People were very conflicted with Joel's decision to kill the fireflies and save Ellie in the game, so here they're trying to rectify that by giving credence to Bill's letter to joel. "That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do.” The letter implies Joel's job is to keep Tess safe, a job Bill doesn't know (but Joel does) that Joel has already failed to do and he probably also does know that Joel's already failed at his most important job once before (but again, Joel does).

By the end of the season, Joel won't let himself fail a 3rd time. The game doesn't really put Tess' death on Joel much at all. So we don't really see Joel striking out twice, only once with Sarah. This adds more weight to his failures and you don't get the length that Bill would go through to save Frank in the original story, and thus it's near impossible for Bill's character to build towards that weight without their backstory.

In summary what are the showrunners trying to do;

Add more weight to Joel's suffering and feelings of failure so that people understand him more

How do you add more weight? By having a character identify his failures (through Joel's and the audience's eyes) and give breath to those failures but also the absolute distance that a character can go to keep those around him safe.

You can tell in this version Joel is much more closed off than in the game and when he opens up to Ellie in the show, it should be very clear to viewers that when David takes Ellie, that Joel is determined not to fail again. That is done through Bill's story.

Also, HBO didn't dictate the season lengths and Netflix really doesn't either. You see episodes of mixed length and seasons of mixed length all the time and their episodes as you mentioned are already more limited in number than most broadcast TV.

D and D rushed Game of Thrones because they wanted to work on other material for more money.

TLOU was originally supposed to be 10 episodes, HBO let them combine episodes 1 and 2 together so it turned into 9.

People were conflicted because it was a decision Ellie didn't want Joel to make. They're likely going to add more weight to Ellie's decision as we go through her story. They barely touched on it within the first 3 episodes and we still have flashbacks of Anna and Riley. If they wanted you to side with Joel, then they wouldn't have Ellie go through survivor's guilt and question Joel at the end of The Last of Us.

This is why people love the story because everyone is doing what they believe is right.
- Marlene loves Ellie, but she's making the decision to save mankind
- Ellie suffers from survivor's guilt and wanted to give her life to save mankind
- Joel saved Ellie because he loved her.

The story was always designed to spark debates and have people talking about it for years. While Joel's decision is something any father figure would do, it's still something Ellie didn't want to do and Joel knew that. That alone would make people side with Ellie.

 

[DForce]

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Surprisingly well made.

Also, I'm bisexual.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

That was brilliant!

 

[MasterCornholio]

Well if I have an accident I'll call that little guy in the cloud.

 

[Ulysses 31]

[iSPOILER
This is why people love the story because everyone is doing what they believe is right.
- Marlene loves Ellie, but she's making the decision to save mankind
- Ellie suffers from survivor's guilt and wanted to give her life to save mankind
- Joel saved Ellie because he loved her.

The story was always designed to spark debates and have people talking about it for years. While Joel's decision is something any father figure would do, it's still something Ellie didn't want to do and Joel knew that. That alone would make people side with Ellie.[/iSPOILER]

IMO it's still debatable that Ellie wanted the operation to proceed under those conditions. She talked about a future with Joel after the hospital after all.

Point is no one asked Ellie and the correct course of action was to ask her first(and that's being generous in assuming she's in the right state of mind to decide such things). Even Marlene talked in terms that Ellie would've wanted it rather than saying Ellie wants this.

If you line up the important facts there's more to side with Joel than the Fireflies which settles the debate IMO.

Spoiler

 

[DForce]

IMO it's still debatable that Ellie wanted the operation to proceed under those conditions. She talked about a future with Joel after the hospital after all.

Point is no one asked Ellie and the correct course of action was to ask her first(and that's being generous in assuming she's in the right state of mind to decide such things). Even Marlene talked in terms that Ellie would've wanted it rather than saying Ellie wants this.

If you line up the important facts there's more to side with Joel than the Fireflies which settles the debate IMO.

Spoiler

It's not debatable. It was confirmed in part II and there would be no other reason why she would be upset with Joel or even question his actions. The future plans argument doesn't work because Joel ALSO made future plans and he didn't know what the Fireflies were going to do. We went over this before, this is a problem with your interpretation of the story.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

We compare both scenes and characters such as Joel, Ellie, and Tess side by side, and take a look at how some parts are reimagined or recreated in The Last Of Us tv show.

 

[Ulysses 31]

It's not debatable. It was confirmed in part II and there would be no other reason why she would be upset with Joel or even question his actions. The future plans argument doesn't work because Joel ALSO made future plans and he didn't know what the Fireflies were going to do. We went over this before, this is a problem with your interpretation of the story.

I'm sure you aware by now how I dislike TLOU2 trying to gaslight players with its one sided retelling of TLOU1 events and the retcon that TLOU2 Ellie was ready to die when going to that hospital while in TLOU1 death didn't seem to be on her mind when going there.

Ellie was never told the whole truth of what happened so her judgement is questionable and she had become bitter after years of Joel's lies. TLOU2 Ellie can't 100% speak for TLOU1 Ellie.

The future plans thing does show when the situation changes so drastically(someone has to die), it needs to be discussed first with all parties involved to remove doubt if it's the correct course of action. When there's any doubt about something so irreversible(killing someone), it's justified to intervene.

 

[DForce]

I'm sure you aware by now how I dislike TLOU2 trying to gaslight players with its one sided retelling of TLOU1 events and the retcon that TLOU2 Ellie was ready to die when going to that hospital while in TLOU1 death didn't seem to be on her mind when going there.

Ellie was never told the whole truth of what happened so her judgement is questionable and she had become bitter after years of Joel's lies. TLOU2 Ellie can't 100% speak for TLOU1 Ellie.

The future plans thing does show when the situation changes so drastically(someone has to die), it needs to be discussed first with all parties involved to remove doubt if it's the correct course of action. When there's any doubt about something so irreversible(killing someone), it's justified to intervene.

Ellie was making plans with Joel about the future. They were traveling through the tunnel and that's where Ellie was knocked unconscious. She later woke up in the back seat of the truck with Joel telling her the stories about Fireflies and how her immunity meant nothing.

This caused Ellie to be suspicious and question Joel's story. There's only ONE major reason why Joel would lie, and that would be the fact the operation would've killed her.

Joel lied to her because he knew what she would think about the truth. Joel was worried that Marlene would come after her and (not him). It's pure common sense that if Ellie was in fact conscious, she would've agreed with the operation.

There's no retcon because Ellie never said she knew what happen. She was upset with Joel for taking her out of the hospital, and she found out the truth in the 3rd flashback.

Your arguments make no sense when you actually follow the story.

 

[Roni]

retcon that TLOU2 Ellie was ready to die when going to that hospital while in TLOU1 death didn't seem to be on her mind when going there.

You call something that was in the first game's final speech and in its DLC a retcon?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Ellie was making plans with Joel about the future. They were traveling through the tunnel and that's where Ellie was knocked unconscious. She later woke up in the back seat of the truck with Joel telling her the stories about Fireflies and how her immunity meant nothing.

This caused Ellie to be suspicious and question Joel's story. There's only ONE major reason why Joel would lie, and that would be the fact the operation would've killed her.

Joel lied to her because he knew what she would think about the truth. Joel was worried that Marlene would come after her and (not him). It's pure common sense that if Ellie was in fact conscious, she would've agreed with the operation.

Why would Ellie work so hard to get so close to Joel when she was ready to die all this time? She knows about Sarah and how much it affected him. I don't see Ellie in the car decerning that she had to die, only that Joel's not telling the truth or the whole truth. Same with the ending, where she probably becomes even more suspicious that Joel is hiding something from her.

Joel could be lying for purely selfish reasons or he was trying to spare her feelings by not shattering her high regard of the Fireflies who turned out the be another group of thugs.

There's no retcon because Ellie never said she knew what happen. She was upset with Joel for taking her out of the hospital, and she found out the truth in the 3rd flashback.

"Partial" truth, TLOU2 let the Fireflies completely off the hook. The retcon is when she says she should've died there, implying that Joel shouldn't have intervened as if he should've known she would want that which is an absurd assumption considering their talks just before the hospital and how attached she'd gotten to Joel.

Your arguments make no sense when you actually follow the story.

Nah, there's ambiguity in the story which makes it interesting to consider multiple possibilities.

 

[Ulysses 31]

You call something that was in the first game's final speech and in its DLC a retcon?

No, the "I was supposed to die at that hospital" is the retcon when in TLOU1 death is not on Ellie's mind when going to the hospital.

If you're talking about the "waiting for my turn" part then I'd like to know what she means exactly by that since she does fight to survive and grows attachments to others. She feels guilty for surviving but I don't get that she doesn't care about dying after she and Joel got close. May have been the case at the start of the game but certainly not by the end.

 

[DForce]

Why would Ellie work so hard to get so close to Joel when she was ready to die all this time? She knows about Sarah and how much it affected him. I don't see Ellie in the car decerning that she had to die, only that Joel's not telling the truth or the whole truth. Same with the ending, where she probably becomes even more suspicious that Joel is hiding something from her.

Just because you're getting close to someone and making plans for the future, that doesn't mean you're NOT willing to die under those circumstances.

Joel could be lying for purely selfish reasons or he was trying to spare her feelings by not shattering her high regard of the Fireflies who turned out the be another group of thugs.

He wasn't. The reason why he lied and hid the truth from Ellie was confirmed in Part II. If people knew this after Part I and it happened in Part II, then maybe you have to consider that your interpretation was wrong.

"Partial" truth, TLOU2 let the Fireflies completely off the hook. The retcon is when she says she should've died there, implying that Joel shouldn't have intervened as if he should've known she would want that which is an absurd assumption considering their talks just before the hospital and how attached she'd gotten to Joel.

Ellie saying she should've died is not a retcon. She's telling Joel what SHOULD have happened. This means Ellie is observing Joel's actions in the past and telling him what he should have done.

Nah, there's ambiguity in the story which it interesting to consider multiple possibilities.

There isn't. People who understood the story knew Ellie didn't believe Joel. This plot point carried over. The ending is morally ambiguous.

 

[Roni]

No, the "I was supposed to die at that hospital" is the retcon when in TLOU1 death is not on Ellie's mind when going to the hospital.

If you're talking about the "waiting for my turn" part then I'd like to know what she means exactly by that since she does fight to survive and grows attachments to others. She feels guilty for surviving but I don't get that she doesn't care about dying after she and Joel got close. May have been the case at the start of the game but certainly not by the end.

She means she's waiting for her turn to die, to be with her friend as they promised. If she has to die to help the Firefly effort, even better. They show the scene they decide to die together in the DLC, it's clear and hatred for TLOU2 is clouding your judgment on something pretty straight forward.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Just because you're getting close to someone and making plans for the future, that doesn't mean you're NOT willing to die under those circumstances.

True, but how reasonable is it to expect Joel to assume she was ready to die like that without a shadow of a doubt without ever saying good bye to him or anything after everything they've been through?

He wasn't. The reason why he lied and hid the truth from Ellie was confirmed in Part II. If people knew this after Part I and it happened in Part II, then maybe you have to consider that your interpretation was wrong.

Not if you consider Ellie and Marlene were close(ish) so Joel would have reservations about telling how he killed her and other members of her group.

Joel makes an half-assed explanation why he stopped the operation, leaving out a lot of important details so I find it hard to take seriously.

Ellie saying she should've died is not a retcon. She's telling Joel what SHOULD have happened. This means Ellie is observing Joel's actions in the past and telling him what he should have done.

Which doesn't bare out from her actions in TLOU1, she was hopeful/optimistic, formed attachments to others and talked about the future on her journey to the hospital.

There isn't. People who understood the story knew Ellie didn't believe Joel. This plot point carried over. The ending is morally ambiguous.

I was more talking about what went down at the hospital which upon closer inspecting becomes less morally ambiguous.

It's pretty clear TLOU1 Ellie knows Joel's hiding something but to conclude from that she knew she should've died at the hospital is a big stretch IMO.

 

[Ulysses 31]

She means she's waiting for her turn to die, to be with her friend as they promised. If she has to die to help the Firefly effort, even better. They show the scene they decide to die together in the DLC, it's clear and hatred for TLOU2 is clouding your judgment on something pretty straight forward.

Sure but does that mean Ellie is in a hurry to die or something? Would her friend resent her if she could live a happy life rather than going through life wishing for death? TLOU2 shows Ellie's not in a hurry to see her friend in the afterlife either.

 

[DForce]

True, but how reasonable is it to expect Joel to assume she was ready to die like that without a shadow of a doubt without ever saying good bye to him or anything after all they've been through?

Joel knew what Ellie wanted to do. That's why he lied. They just didn't expect to die. If they knew it, then Joel would've stayed back in Jackson and avoided everything.

Not if you consider Ellie and Marlene were close(ish) so Joel would have reservations about telling how he killed her and other members of her group.

Joel makes an half-assed explanation why he stopped the operation, leaving out a lot of important details so I find it hard to take seriously.

Joel killed Marlene because he didn't want to come after her. Joel completely lied about what happened. He didn't want Ellie to know the truth. The reason why he lied is obvious.

Which doesn't bare out from her actions in TLOU1, she was hopeful/optimistic, formed attachments to others and talked about the future on her journey to the hospital.

She expressed her guilt. They traveled across the country and fought to make it to the fireflies. She wanted it to mean something. Again, this interpretation was understood by many and confirmed in part II. You can't go around that.

I was more talking about what went down at the hospital which upon closer inspecting becomes less morally ambiguous.

It's pretty clear TLOU1 Ellie knows Joel's hiding something but to conclude from that she knew she should've died at the hospital is a big stretch IMO.

It's not less morally ambiguous. Save the world or save Ellie. Knowing Ellie would be against it makes some people decide with her. That's the point of the ending. It's not 1 sided because two characters wanted different things to happen.


The things you're saying don't make sense. Your interpretation is totally correct. What fans suspected in Part I was confirmed in Part II.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Joel knew what Ellie wanted to do. That's why he lied. They just didn't expect to die. If they knew it, then Joel would've stayed back in Jackson and avoided everything.

I disagree, growing very close to someone and talking about the future with them does not strike me as being OK with dying without informed consent.

Joel killed Marlene because he didn't want to come after her. Joel completely lied about what happened. He didn't want Ellie to know the truth. The reason why he lied is obvious.

Part of it could also be to spare Ellie's feelings about killing Marlene like that and that the Fireflies turned out to be just thugs. That and ease Ellie's disappointment that her immunity won't matter much anymore.

She expressed her guilt. They traveled across the country and fought to make it to the fireflies. She wanted it to mean something. Again, this interpretation was understood by many and confirmed in part II. You can't go around that.

Yes she was under the impression she could mean something in developing a vaccine, being OK with dying without informed consent is not something to just assume if you're a moral person.

It's not less morally ambiguous. Save the world or save Ellie. Knowing Ellie would be against it makes some people decide with her. That's the point of the ending. It's not 1 sided because two characters wanted different things to happen.

Nah, we've not seen the Fireflies' capacity for saving the world, even if they could make a vaccine. Without any sign of that first, why would a reasonable person side with them when it requires the sacrifice of a valuable human life?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Glad everyone is using it properly.

 

[Roni]

Sure but does that mean Ellie is in a hurry to die or something? Would her friend resent her if she could live a happy life rather than going through life wishing for death? TLOU2 shows Ellie's not in a hurry to see her friend in the afterlife either

She definitely was if it meant progress for a cure at the end of TLOU. That's the whole point of what she told Joel before he lied.

"I'm still waiting for my turn"