Support NeoGAF

[Ulysses 31]

It doesn't matter if the player knows the ins and outs, what matters is what you're able to do in the game. The typical player will likely play on an easy difficulty setting and blast his way through the game.

It matters for the playstyle and you seemed to be alluding that it's generally over the top and I don't think it is on hard or above for new players.

The only realism is the elements OUTSIDE of the gameplay. The over-the-top element is what you're able to do and how one player can take down a group of enemies alone.

Ellie taking out a group of enemies isn't inherently over the top, if she does it with stealth and a lot of skill then it can be done believably, you seem to imply it's over the top in all situations.

The typical gamer likes that type of action and that's how the gameplay is designed.

The average player can understand the difference. Somehow the player can take down groups of enemies but they struggle to take down a main character during a boss fight.

Usually the designers introduce some mechanics or situations into the fight to explain the boss not going down as easily as the average enemy, otherwise it would be off-putting.

 

[MALpractice311]

Yeah it was a tape recording in the university in Colorado.

But in tlou2, they make it clear that the vaccine will work so it was already retconned in the game.

Correct. It wasn't a sure thing in TLOU1. There was a chance and there were some documents or recordings that said attempting to get a cure from "prior cases" failed, which potentially could mean other immune people or just anyone else that was infected. The retcon says it's the latter, but nothing found in game says it can't be the former.

So anyhow, Druckmann decided that Joel = bad, so he couldn't leave the ending morally grey and made up a bunch of shit for TLOU2. "The one person in the world who could've made a cure is now dead" referring to Abby's dad, according to Druckmann. Like, seriously? In this super dangerous world where anyone can die at any moment either from infected or raiders or even just randomly drop dead from a heart attack or a stroke, the one guy who knew how to make the cure didn't leave some notes for other people to follow or explain the process to anyone or train an understudy? That's either (a) some shit writing or (b) further proof the Fireflies are incompetent, dumb shits.

 

[DForce]

I haven't played the game for a long time (pretty much since the launch of the original), I kind of remember it wasn't a sure thing that they could get the cure from Ellie. Wasn't there evidence or some conversation that showed that they had done the proceadure to other people and they just died without getting the cure?

I kind of felt the show handled it as if it was a sure thing they could get the cure if Ellie was dissected.

It's a big difference because if it was like I remember in the game, Joel is more justified to resist to cooperate. On the other hand, the show really shows the affection he has for her as a character flaw, dooming humanity. It's kind of harder to justify his behavior.

They experimented on monkeys in Colorado.

In Utah, you can read a note where they experimented on infected humans, which means they were dead or turned before

Yeah it was a tape recording in the university in Colorado.

But in tlou2, they make it clear that the vaccine will work so it was already retconned in the game.

Correct. It wasn't a sure thing in TLOU1. There was a chance and there were some documents or recordings that said attempting to get a cure from "prior cases" failed, which potentially could mean other immune people or just anyone else that was infected. The retcon says it's the latter, but nothing found in game says it can't be the former.

This is not true.

April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid.

1. Ellie was something they have never seen before. This means Ellie was the first and only to their knowledge.
2. All past cases were infected with cordyceps. This means they were infected prior to experimenting on them. These subjects were NOT immune.

I still can't believe how many people can misinterpret this.

 

[A.Romero]

Yeah it was a tape recording in the university in Colorado.

But in tlou2, they make it clear that the vaccine will work so it was already retconned in the game.

Thanks for the memory refresh.

In that case I feel is impossible to redeem Joel. I mean, Ellie will die at some point anyway either because of how shitty the world is or of old age. I'm sure she would agree.

The only angle where Joel could have some justification was if there were other trials that failed. Odds were against them and there wasn't any indication that this time it would have been different.

Maybe the show is breaking the audience's sympathy so it's easier to assimilate Joel's fate.

 

[DForce]

It matters for the playstyle and you seemed to be alluding that it's generally over the top and I don't think it is on hard or above for new players.

Ellie taking out a group of enemies isn't inherently over the top, if she does it with stealth and a lot of skill then it can be done believably, you seem to imply it's over the top in all situations.

Usually the designers introduce some mechanics or situations into the fight to explains the boss not going down as easily as the average enemy, otherwise it would be off-putting.

Saying Ellie could do this or that doesn't change what you could do in the game. This is such a weak argument and nothing more than goalpost moving. You can take out a large group of enemies alone and that's impossible in the real world, thus over-the-top unrealsitic.

Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[A.Romero]

They experimented on monkeys in Colorado.

In Utah, you can read a note where they experimented on infected humans, which means they were dead or turned before



This is not true.



1. Ellie was something they have never seen before. This means Ellie was the first and only to their knowledge.
2. All past cases were infected with cordyceps. This means they were infected prior to experimenting on them. These subjects were NOT immune.

I still can't believe how many people can misinterpret this.

I mean if it's so common I don't think it's the audience's fault but the way they convey that info.

Even if Ellie was the first inmune, it doesn't necessarily mean that the doctor was on the right track. To me it was surprising that they were aiming to put her under surgery so fast, I would think there were many more tests to run before killing her and losing that unique individual forever.


In the games do they ever explain how Ellie was born and acquired the immunity?

 

[MALpractice311]

They experimented on monkeys in Colorado.

In Utah, you can read a note where they experimented on infected humans, which means they were dead or turned before



This is not true.



1. Ellie was something they have never seen before. This means Ellie was the first and only to their knowledge.
2. All past cases were infected with cordyceps. This means they were infected prior to experimenting on them. These subjects were NOT immune.

I still can't believe how many people can misinterpret this.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the way it's written, it CAN be interpreted both ways. You read it as her case is unlike prior cases. But it can also be read that her form of immunity is unlike prior cases of immunity. Why do you think Druckmann had to make it so clear in TLOU2? Because so many people disagreed on the reading of this note.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Saying Ellie could do this or that doesn't change what you could do in the game. This is such a weak argument and nothing more than goalpost moving. You can take out a large group of enemies alone and that's impossible in the real world, thus over-the-top unrealsitic.

Nothing else needs to be said.

True but I don't see how it counters anything I said. Just because there's speedrunners with 300+ hours of playtime that can play the game in an over the top way, doesn't mean every other player does too. New players on hard and above won't if their goal is to progress through the game in a reasonable time frame.

You can take out a large group of enemies alone under the right conditions(with the right tools, skills/talent/luck) IRL. Stories often are about exceptional people/situations.

Calling it over the top to me means an hyper exaggeration(and self aware) like the 80s Arnold action movies and TLOU to me is far from that.

 

[DForce]

I mean if it's so common I don't think it's the audience's fault but the way they convey that info.

Even if Ellie was the first inmune, it doesn't necessarily mean that the doctor was on the right track. To me it was surprising that they were aiming to put her under surgery so fast, I would think there were many more tests to run before killing her and losing that unique individual forever.


In the games do they ever explain how Ellie was born and acquired the immunity?

The problem is that many people are just repeating what they heard online without actually reading the note themselves. It's like how those fake Mortal Kombat rumors used to circulate back in the 90s. People typically spread rumors that are false.

Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.

We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.

This is the only explanation in the game as to how her immunity works.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Yeah it was a tape recording in the university in Colorado.

But in tlou2, they make it clear that the vaccine will work so it was already retconned in the game.

Are you sure it was the recording in the university, in my mind it was a recording at the hospital in utah

I also don't recall this being retconned in the sequel

 

[DragoonKain]

Did you guys find the hospital scene as emotional, the same, or less than the game? I asked some friends and it was split. Some thought it being more visceral made it more emotional and seeing Bella on her hospital bed. Some thought it was less because Joel was less on a rampage in the game and more concerned about just saving Ellie.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Did you guys find the hospital scene as emotional, the same, or less than the game? I asked some friends and it was split. Some thought it being more visceral made it more emotional and seeing Bella on her hospital bed. Some thought it was less because Joel was less on a rampage in the game and more concerned about just saving Ellie.

The show conveyed how fucked up it was that Joel was just murdering people with no regard for human decency. The entire thing played out like a mass shooting, his cold blooded gaze and execution of people running away and unarmed, finishing off people that were no longer a threat, etc. In the game it was easy to get caught up because you are the player. The cinematography of the show really drove the gravity of the situation.

 

[VulcanRaven]

The final episode was perfect. I had to watch it again today because its so good. I was worried about the short runtime but I don't think they left anything important out.

Did you guys find the hospital scene as emotional, the same, or less than the game? I asked some friends and it was split. Some thought it being more visceral made it more emotional and seeing Bella on her hospital bed. Some thought it was less because Joel was less on a rampage in the game and more concerned about just saving Ellie.

What Joel did felt more wrong in the show than in the game in my opinion.

 

[DForce]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the way it's written, it CAN be interpreted both ways. You read it as her case is unlike prior cases. But it can also be read that her form of immunity is unlike prior cases of immunity. Why do you think Druckmann had to make it so clear in TLOU2? Because so many people disagreed on the reading of this note.

Just as I said earlier, many people didn't actually read the note themselves.

But let's say for a second that there were other immune people. Do you know how that would make no sense?

Ask yourself these questions:

Why would Marlene try to smuggle Ellie out of the city?
Why would Marlene risk losing Ellie (her best friend's daughter) if there were other immune children?
Why would the Fireflies risk their lives at the drop off point (Capitol Building) for Ellie?
Why would Marlene treat Ellie as special in regard to her immunity if there were other people who were immune?
If Ellie was one of many who were immune, then what makes so Ellie special?
Why would Marlene risk Ellie's life if other people who were immune failed?

This is because she was the only one. You don't treat Ellie as if she was the only one.

Both games were clear and it pretty much confirmed what we already knew: They were going to make a cure and Joel stopped them. But people didn't want to believe it. People were in denial. That's why many people always say, "You can't make a vaccine for a fungal infection" or they'll say, "Do you think doctors can really make a vaccine in a rundown hospital?"

 

[Venuspower]

All in all, a very good series. 9.3/9.4 from my point of view.

My biggest criticisms:
- Episodes 6 & 8 seem very rushed. Especially episode 6 should have spent 15-20 minutes more in the university.
- The fight with Ellie and David against the infected should have been part of episode 8. Craig and Neil say in the podcast that they deliberately limited themselves to the conversation between Ellie and David. But in the game, it is just more exciting. Furthermore, it would have been wonderful to include a few more infected people.
- And that brings us to the topic of infected people: Overall, I don't see it quite as critical that they are not so present. But in 1 - 2 places more it would definitely not have hurt.

Other than that, I am pretty happy. The only other thing I missed in episode 9 was the part where Ellie gives Joel the picture with Sarah and Joel.

 

[K' Dash]

This is a solid 7.

When the dust settles it could go down below that for some.

 

[RaduN]

Good enough episode, but the sudden personality transplant for Ellie is just amateur hour.
There is not nearly enough throughout the show (or game) that would suggest that Ellie would have actually considered going Jesus, and this is why the last scene has almost no impact (unless you really want hard to have one).
Thia is (one of) the biggests problems with 2 as well. Everything relies on this very poorly done conundrum.

This was my biggest expectation from the show, but the writers weren't up to the task.

Still worth the watch. 7/10 overall, with an 8.5/10 for ep. 3.

 

[Draugoth]

My mother kept complaining about the show but she watched til the end lol

 

[kyliethicc]

 

[Bragr]

As I said before, Ellie doesn't use her physical strength to take down enemies. She uses her knife. Abby is the one who uses her bare hands and brute strength. It's more believable for a small frail woman to take down a man with a deadly weapon. The over-the-top element in the game is how one person can take down a group of people.

The player is meant to suspend their moment of belief and be entertained by the gameplay element.

She uses force many many times. It's a common theme with the combat that she gets up and close.

This reminds me of bullshido, where some people train something like Wing Chun and are completely convinced they can beat up everyone, yet they have never been in a fight. Ellie is like a bullshido practitioner with a knife and everyone is trying to explain how she can beat up everyone.

 

[SlimySnake]

Good enough episode, but the sudden personality transplant for Ellie is just amateur hour.
There is not nearly enough throughout the show (or game) that would suggest that Ellie would have actually considered going Jesus, and this is why the last scene has almost no impact (unless you really want hard to have one).
Thia is (one of) the biggests problems with 2 as well. Everything relies on this very poorly done conundrum.

This was my biggest expectation from the show, but the writers weren't up to the task.

Still worth the watch. 7/10 overall, with an 8.5/10 for ep. 3.

It worked in the game though. Probably because there is no flashback between Ellie killing David and them ending up at the hospital. You get a quick title cut to Spring and boom, you are right back there with Ellie who is clearly suffering from PTSD. Here, the flasback plus a week long wait for the new episode probably didnt help.

Now Ellie becoming withdrawn and distant and an introvert at the big dance sequence in the sequel? That I didnt buy. Yes, PTSD stays with you but she went from a cool, funny, quirky, extrovert to a shy girl with ZERO sense of humor in five years? Yeah, im not buying that.

I always give Abby shit for being unlikeable but I honestly dont remember Ellie making ANY jokes or even smiling in Part 2.

 

[VulcanRaven]

It worked in the game though. Probably because there is no flashback between Ellie killing David and them ending up at the hospital. You get a quick title cut to Spring and boom, you are right back there with Ellie who is clearly suffering from PTSD. Here, the flasback plus a week long wait for the new episode probably didnt help.

Now Ellie becoming withdrawn and distant and an introvert at the big dance sequence in the sequel? That I didnt buy. Yes, PTSD stays with you but she went from a cool, funny, quirky, extrovert to a shy girl with ZERO sense of humor in five years? Yeah, im not buying that.

I always give Abby shit for being unlikeable but I honestly dont remember Ellie making ANY jokes or even smiling in Part 2.

Part 2:

Spoiler

She did smile in the game many times. Especially during the first few hours and in flashbacks.

 

[DragoonKain]

 

[xrnzaaas]

I swear they're trying to make Joel a worse character than in the first game so that Abby's storyline will be received better in season 2. Other than that and almost lack of infected (again) it was a decent finale. I liked the hospital scene with the music and muted fight sounds. But I'm not going to return for season 2, thankfully the first story ends without a cliffhanger.

 

[SlimySnake]

Part 2:

Spoiler

She did smile in the game many times. Especially during the first few hours and in flashbacks.

I remember her smiling in the very first flashback in the museum, but she's already withdrawn in flashback number 2 that starts you off with Tommy. The third flashback is a non gameplay cutscene where she finally confronts Joel. I dont remember her smiling once they get to Seattle. She might have smiled a bit when trying to fuck Dina, but thats about it. She's just a completely different person in part 2 and while i understand thats a narrative choice by Neil, I am not sure it helps. In fact it contributed to TLOU2 feeling like a miserable experience to play through. And I say that as someone who thought it was the GOTY that year.

 

[Eiknarf]

The show conveyed how fucked up it was that Joel was just murdering people with no regard for human decency. The entire thing played out like a mass shooting, his cold blooded gaze and execution of people running away and unarmed, finishing off people that were no longer a threat, etc. In the game it was easy to get caught up because you are the player. The cinematography of the show really drove the gravity of the situation.

But just the way the Fireflies treated Joel was enough to fuck em up. He brought Marlene exactly what she wanted: trekking across the country and almost dying a few times on his way with Ellie. He arrives, gets knocked out, comes to, talks friendly with Marlene, asks to see her, gets gut punched FOR NO REASON after being cooperative—- Yeah, those pieces of shit had to be taken out. Not for TWO reasons

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I swear they're trying to make Joel a worse character than in the first game so that Abby's storyline will be received better in season 2. Other than that and almost lack of infected (again) it was a decent finale. I liked the hospital scene with the music and muted fight sounds. But I'm not going to return for season 2, thankfully the first story ends without a cliffhanger.

Joel is a piece of shit. He murdered a hospital full of people while at the same time shuttering any hope for a cure/vaccine, and then he lied to the most important person in his life which as we all know turns out to cause Ellie great emotional harm down the road. Not to mention the things he did long before he met Ellie.

The game and the show both cover this well. Unsure why you'd not want to return for the next season.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

But just the way the Fireflies treated Joel was enough to fuck em up. He brought Marlene exactly what she wanted: trekking across the country and almost dying a few times on his way with Ellie. He arrives, gets knocked out, comes to, talks friendly with Marlene, asks to see her, gets gut punched FOR NO REASON after being cooperative—- Yeah, those pieces of shit had to be taken out. Not for TWO reasons

They all needed to die because they were mean to him?

 

[VulcanRaven]

‘The Last of Us’ Season 1 Finale Scores 8.2 Million Viewers, Reaching Series High Despite Oscars Competition:

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-last-of-us-season-1-finale-ratings-viewers-1235551465/

“The Last of Us” closed its first season with yet another triumph. With an audience of 8.2 million people for Episode 9, the series broke its own viewership record — a significant feat, considering that the finale was released during ABC’s telecast of the Oscars.
Provided by Warner Bros. Discovery, this number accounts for those who tuned into the Sunday night airing on HBO’s cable channel as well as streams on HBO Max through the night.
This isn’t the first time that “The Last of Us” has outdone itself while competing with a major awards show. Episode 4, titled “Please Hold to My Hand,” brought in 7.5 million viewers when it aired at the same time as the Grammys, which was then a series high: When “The Last of Us” debuted in January, it trailed “House of the Dragon” to become the second-most watched HBO premiere in over a decade with 4.7 million viewers. Episode 2 marked HBO’s biggest ever increase between a series’ first and second episode with 5.7 million viewers. The series then brought in 6.4 million viewers with Episode 3.

Edit:

WBD also shared that the first six episodes of the series are now averaging 30.4 million viewers, with Episode 1 approaching 40 million. In Europe and Latin America, “The Last of Us” is the most watched show on HBO Max ever.

 

[Eiknarf]

They all needed to die because they were mean to him?

Mean is fine.

Physical violence twice, when they know damn well who he is? Yup. I’d do the same. Touch me once, fine. Twice? Goodbye

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Mean is fine.

Physical violence twice, when they know damn well who he is? Yup. I’d do the same. Touch me once, fine. Twice? Goodbye

I'm sure you would lol.

 

[Eiknarf]

I'm sure you would lol.

What are you, a douche? I’m asking you if you are ?

It’s a game - and a TV show.

I hope your account gets suspended for the dunce-way you behave, tough guy.
Do you even have kids? Probably don’t even have a girlfriend.

So yeah, I’d do the same as Joel. You asked. I answered. Wanna act tough?

 

[bentanchorbolt]

What are you, a douche? I’m asking you if you are ?

It’s a game - and a TV show.

I hope your account gets suspended for the dunce-way you behave, tough guy.
Do you even have kids? Probably don’t even have a girlfriend.

So yeah, I’d do the same as Joel. You asked. I answered. Wanna act tough?

 

[Trilobit]

People claiming that the vaccine was a guaranteed deal in the first game are delusional. There were themes with how desperate people were to find a cure and constantly failed. In the end the Fireflies were fanatical and could only keep going to justify the huge sacrifices they'd made in the past. Even to not let it be Ellie's decision, but rather just murder a child "for the sake of the greater good".

I was surprised afterwards when people stated that the vaccine would have worked without question. The game had nuances and was not black and white, so I consider that uncertainty also a part of the vaccine's viability.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

People claiming that the vaccine was a guaranteed deal in the first game are delusional. There were themes with how desperate people were to find a cure and constantly failed. In the end the Fireflies were fanatical and could only keep going to justify the huge sacrifices they'd made in the past. Even to not let it be Ellie's decision, but rather just murder a child "for the sake of the greater good".

I was surprised afterwards when people stated that the vaccine would have worked without question. The game had nuances and was not black and white, so I consider that uncertainty also a part of the vaccine's viability.

They clearly just changed that narrative to up the asshole factor on Joel 100 fold

 

[Eiknarf]

They clearly just changed that narrative to up the asshole factor on Joel 100 fold

Well he’s been an asshole for the twenty years that we didn’t see. He’s killed for way less. They alluded to that in the game and the show -

Aaaaand we all thought the show would show some flashbacks showing some of what he and Tommy did… But instead they showed Bill and Frank and Ellie and Riley. They forgot about Joel’s past.

The twenty years of killing for drugs and killing because he was a smuggler of weapons…etc is way worse than killing a bunch of asshole firefly dudes who are literally treating ya like shit AND willingly taking your loved-one to cut their head open.

 

[BadBurger]

 

[RaduN]

They all needed to die because they were mean to him?

They threatened to kill him and just confessed they will kill his de facto daughter in a matter of minutes.

Joel is completely in the right to kill them, there is zero moral dilemma here, and if it is somehow meant to be some grey area, it is so poorly done it's ridiculous.

This is why part 2 is based on an incredibly badly written motif, shoved down the throat, with the clear purpose of having some sort of depth and complexity, which simply isn't there.

 

[DForce]

She uses force many many times. It's a common theme with the combat that she gets up and close.

This reminds me of bullshido, where some people train something like Wing Chun and are completely convinced they can beat up everyone, yet they have never been in a fight. Ellie is like a bullshido practitioner with a knife and everyone is trying to explain how she can beat up everyone.

Just about every single one of her melee strikes is with a knife.

She pushes enemies against the wall and uses her knife to excuse them.

She holds them hostage with a deadly weapon.

She takes the enemy's weapon when they're stunned.

These are the only times when she uses her physical strength and she needs to use a deadly weapon to stun her enemies before killing them.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Just about every single one of her melee strikes is with a knife.

She pushes enemies against the wall and uses her knife to excuse them.

She holds them hostage with a deadly weapon.

She takes the enemy's weapon when they're stunned.

These are the only times when she uses her physical strength and she needs to use a deadly weapon to stun her enemies before killing them.

Ellie - Rogue
Abby - DPS
Joel - /shout for rezz, by the home camp

 

[FunkMiller]

They threatened to kill him and just confessed they will kill his de facto daughter in a matter of minutes.

Joel is completely in the right to kill them, there is zero moral dilemma here, and if it is somehow meant to be some grey area, it is so poorly done it's ridiculous.

This is why part 2 is based on an incredibly badly written motif, shoved down the throat, with the clear purpose of having some sort of depth and complexity, which simply isn't there.

He’s in the right for him. Nobody else. Literally nobody.

And doing it has consequences. Part 2 may have paced his punishment poorly, and not done enough to create empathy for those he fucked over… but he absolutely did fuck everybody else over for his own selfish desires.

I find this endless defence of Joel’s actions very weird. And it only started after game two came out.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

They threatened to kill him and just confessed they will kill his de facto daughter in a matter of minutes.

Joel is completely in the right to kill them, there is zero moral dilemma here, and if it is somehow meant to be some grey area, it is so poorly done it's ridiculous.

This is why part 2 is based on an incredibly badly written motif, shoved down the throat, with the clear purpose of having some sort of depth and complexity, which simply isn't there.

In a purely selfish respect, sure -- might makes right in the world of TLOU after all.

But to anyone not named Joel Miller it was the wrong thing to do. Even Ellie with years to reflect on it would have wanted him to just walk away.

 

[Bragr]

Just about every single one of her melee strikes is with a knife.

She pushes enemies against the wall and uses her knife to excuse them.

She holds them hostage with a deadly weapon.

She takes the enemy's weapon when they're stunned.

These are the only times when she uses her physical strength and she needs to use a deadly weapon to stun her enemies before killing them.

Exactly, you just listed why she is nonsensical, she does these physically impossible actions all the time. That's why it's so bizarre to play as her.

 

[DForce]

They threatened to kill him and just confessed they will kill his de facto daughter in a matter of minutes.

Joel is completely in the right to kill them, there is zero moral dilemma here, and if it is somehow meant to be some grey area, it is so poorly done it's ridiculous.

This is why part 2 is based on an incredibly badly written motif, shoved down the throat, with the clear purpose of having some sort of depth and complexity, which simply isn't there.

If it was poorly done, then the ending wouldn't be so divisive.

What people have to understand is that Ellie is not Joel's daughter. Ellie had the right to make her own decision and Joel wanted to make sure that didn't happen. Most people would have done the same thing in Joel's decision, which makes it morally grey or hard for some people to decide because it's CLEAR that it's something Ellie did not want to do.

Part II is based on the fallout of the decision, and it was expected to happen. That's not an incredibly bad writing motif. Everyone is justified for their actions in the second game, but we see the results of those actions throughout the story. I always question people's interpretation of the story whenever they bring up bad writing. lol

 

[TheInfamousKira]

He’s in the right for him. Nobody else. Literally nobody.

And doing it has consequences. Part 2 may have paced his punishment poorly, and not done enough to create empathy for those he fucked over… but he absolutely did fuck everybody else over for his own selfish desires.

I find this endless defence of Joel’s actions very weird. And it only started after game two came out.

Weird? It's the driving force behind all the continued engagement with the series post release up until Part II's announcement teaser. It's what was done BRILLIANTLY, FLAWLESSLY, no hyperbole in the first title: the nuance in tone, facial animations, etc. The fact that in the closing moments of the game, a very (by design, regardless of how sequels recontextualize it) Grey sort of dilemma where two characters you've spent a lot of time with have an ethical divergence, and you're on the fence about which way to lean because the time spent with these two characters gave you insight into their pathos and you can understand, perhaps even empathize, with both takes.

Then Part II came out and said "Yeah, that's all still cool and we're open to any interpretations, but I have an interpretation, and sucks to be you, I'm making the game, sans Straley now, so this is the direction we're going. And from there, it was framing the events of the first games' conclusion under the filter of "Look at this evil man, murdering the peoples," and lots of addendum PS - the vaccine was DEFINITELY going to work, Joel literally took a steaming shit all over his species that wasn't present in the original title.

And I'm aware that art is fluid in an IP, and it's totally ND's call about what direction to take their franchise in, but let's not pretend that "the debate," wasn't an expertly crafted and placed narrative tool that signal boosted the series and lock it up behind "It's weird,"

It was great, because it played on the fundamental differences human beings, even ones aligned with each other face. Would you kill for this person? Would you die for this person? Would you lie to them? Good shit. Anything but weird.

 

[DForce]

Exactly, you just listed why she is nonsensical, she does these physically impossible actions all the time. That's why it's so bizarre to play as her.

If someone is bleeding from their neck, it's going to be easy for a small frail woman to push him against the wall or even take his weapon. lol

The same goes for a woman if she has a gun pointed at a guy's head.

 

[Strategize]

This idea that Part II treats Joel like an evil psychopath just because other characters disagree with his choices really needs to stop. It's not even remotely what the game was going for.

 

[RaduN]

He’s in the right for him. Nobody else. Literally nobody.

And doing it has consequences. Part 2 may have paced his punishment poorly, and not done enough to create empathy for those he fucked over… but he absolutely did fuck everybody else over for his own selfish desires.

I find this endless defence of Joel’s actions very weird. And it only started after game two came out.

Yeah, the goold ol' "feel-good" paradox.

Everything we do in life is to first and foremost, benefit ourselfes. The most altruist act involves some personal gain, even if we admit it or not, it's a scientific fact.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Exactly, you just listed why she is nonsensical, she does these physically impossible actions all the time. That's why it's so bizarre to play as her.

Its a make believe videogame.

 

[Ulysses 31]

In a purely selfish respect, sure -- might makes right in the world of TLOU after all.

How is putting your own life at risk to stop a murder of a loved one purely selfish?

But to anyone not named Joel Miller it was the wrong thing to do. Even Ellie with years to reflect on it would have wanted him to just walk away.

And it was wrong to separate Joel and Ellie the way they did and their plans to murder her, they have no grounds to act surprised/offended when someone pushes back to the way they do things.

Ellie never got told what the Fireflies pulled on Joel at the hospital(maybe the show will change that) and she built up years of bitterness and resentment based on incomplete information. Her reflection is questionable at best.