SolidSnakex
Member
monkeyrun said:
480p
720p
1080p
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Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
HD graphics. Will Revolution be better off without them?
- Thread starter xexex
- Start date
480p
720p
1080p
soundwave05
Member
reallyfull said:Here is a comparison I made with a game that is available on a nextgen console (Xbox 360) the game is Quake 4 for the pc. All images where taken using the highest ingame settings (ultra quality textures) 4xAA and 16xAF. Images were compressed and resized from .tga's to .jpg using save quality 96% and disabled color subsampling. I would have saved to .png but imageshack has a 1024KB limit :\
Quake 4 - 480p 4xAA 16xAF:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2649/q4480p4xaa16xaf3ci.jpg
Quake 4 - 720P 4xAA 16xAF
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2817/q4720p4xaa16xaf2nl.jpg
Quake 4 - 1080p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8982/q41080p4xaa16xaf8qr.jpg
Quake 4 - 480p scaled to 720p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/611/q4480pto720p4xaa16xaf3wo.jpg
Quake 4 - 480p scaled to 1080p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6234/q4480pto1080p4xaa16xaf9sq.jpg
Judge for yourselves
Actually I have to admit looking at these pics, Quake 4 looks pretty damn good at 480p.
Should I be looking at the 480p scaled to 720p/1080p pictures to compare to the 720p/1080p versions?
reallyfull
Member
Yeah
All of the Xbox 360 kiosks around here are running on HD displays but I haven't seen one that is actually using the HD cables. Personally I can tell they weren't being displayed in HD (plus if you look at the side of the LCD you'll see just the composite cables running into it :lol ) Still most people are drooling over the xbox 360 around here even running in SD. IMO most people will notice a big jump over last gen even on SD TV's.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
The scaled up pics look blurry is, will it deter people from buying the rev? is it worth a more $$$? WTF knows
soundwave05
Member
To me it seems like the difference between HDTV and 480p is like the difference between screenshots from companies and the actual game.
Y'know when companies give you direct frame buffer grabs of screens like Rogue Squadron II and Dead or Alive 3 ... they look so sharp and clean.
But when you go to play the game, it always looks fuzzier/blurrier.
With 720p/1080i/1080p the game's graphics look more comparable to the screenshots that a lot of these companies use.
To me that's the main diff. It's not a night and day difference, but it's noticable.
Y'know when companies give you direct frame buffer grabs of screens like Rogue Squadron II and Dead or Alive 3 ... they look so sharp and clean.
But when you go to play the game, it always looks fuzzier/blurrier.
With 720p/1080i/1080p the game's graphics look more comparable to the screenshots that a lot of these companies use.
To me that's the main diff. It's not a night and day difference, but it's noticable.
deadhorse32
Bad Art
Let's not forget SDTV have generally thicker scanlines that hide the flaws in the picture.
And also movies have TONS more details than video games @ 480p :O
And also movies have TONS more details than video games @ 480p :O
reallyfull
Member
Yeah but something rendered at say 720p or 1080p and downsampled to 480p is going to look better than something just rendered at 480p (nin rev).
Comparison:
Same first shot as above:
Quake 4 - 480p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5707/q4480p4xaa16xaf9rk.jpg
Quake 4 - 1080p 4xAA 16xAF to 480p
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1315/q41080pto480p4xaa16xaf3xv.jpg
reallyfull
Member
The lines are more clean and the pic is a bit sharper.
and something redered at 480p the upsampled to 1080p then scaled down to 480p is going to look worse than 480p. the purpose in pointing that out is that scaling 480p to other resolutions is at the mercy of the interpolation algorithm used to get it that size (the same as downrezzing 1080i to 480p). hardly representative of what happens on a TV.reallyfull said:
reallyfull
Member
I'm just trying to give people an idea... The reason I said what you quoted me on was because of what Milhouse31 was saying :
Which are encoded from HD masters when it comes to DVD's
TheJesusFactor
Member
I can see HD helping in 4 player Multiplayer action on 1 screen. The extra sharpness really does help with looking for movement far in the distance. In mulitplayer games, 480p sliced into 4 screens will give everyone 320x240 resolution, which is too little. Other than that, I think 480p is fine for the general public. But I do agree that 16x9 is much better than 720p. Maybe next Gen Nintendo will aim for 1080p. Nintendo does have a disadvantage with the Hardcoregamers, as they are the ones that care enough to drive Hype and initial sales. I don't see Revolution being as successful with their initial shipment as the X360, especially, if they can't get developers to use the new controller well.
I have a TV capable of displaying the full 720P HD resolution, so with that in mind, I will definitely need to pick up an X360 or PS3 evenutally. Revolution lack of HD is preventing me from having a one console future. Now, which one should I get?
I have a TV capable of displaying the full 720P HD resolution, so with that in mind, I will definitely need to pick up an X360 or PS3 evenutally. Revolution lack of HD is preventing me from having a one console future. Now, which one should I get?
marc^o^ said:
See, that's your problem! If something like Nintendogs, a shallow virtual pet with rudimentary rubbing features, "wow"ed you, anything will do the job. Once you set the standard that low, how can you NOT be?
More seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going on. We've even got to the point of comparing resolution pics. This is why these threads are not productive, because the same people say Rev may be "better off" without HD, and the same people say Rev won't be.
We know the correct answer (they're worse off), so why do we keep having these debates? If someone wants to set their standard lower, let them. The one thing they're right about is that Rev clearly isn't about visual presentation, it's about the wand. And that shit might be really fun, so, no use complaining about it now. Nintendo has apparently made their decision.
lol.. aside from this line your post was pretty good.. I highly suggest deleting this so the remaining quality of your post shines through. :lolAmir0x said:
antipode - first shipments for both systems sold out within the first few weeks. I didn't mean they will sell out the first day. that was in response to someone saying "first shipment might not sell as well". First shipment will always sell out, ever last unit. The PSP was the first gaming device (by a major player) in years that didn't sell out of its first shipment in a short period of time (took over two months I believe). Granted part of that is probably sony shipping like a million at launch or whatever.
borghe said:
Whenever I play a game in 480p on my HDTV, it looks like eh. I mean, it looks sharp, but I just don't really see the Revolution pumping out what the 360 does just in 480p (I think that's what Matt is communicating).
I think we'll see anyway. Who cares at this point? I am so excited to see those non-existent games in 720p.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
I just think Nintendo are trying to be cock blockers. You got two companies that are putting importance in HD and Nintendo was to be the emo goth person of the bunch and go against the grain (even though 720p should be no sweat from the Revolution).
borghe said:
Why would I delete objective truth from my post? HD is great. Rev doesn't have it. Therefore, Rev < PS3/360 in that specific way. And in a market that is gonna have 50% penetration in at least one territory, there's not a single way any non-idiot can spin it into a good thing.
Is it the ONLY thing, or even the most -important- thing when discussing Rev? No. But Rev not having it only makes them worse off. It's a dead-end argument, because it's objectively true.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
SolidSnakex said:480p
720p
1080p
Here is a good site to see the difference between Lord of The Rings in HD versus DVD. Just move your mouse over and the difference is immediate.
http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/
take a mid range ATI/Nvidia card, turn on all effects, 4xAA, 16xAF and run it at 640x480Y2Kevbug11 said:
the take a high end ATI/Nvidia card, turn on all effect, 4xAA, 16xAF and run it at 1280x960
see what I did there? Same game. Both systems have all effects turned on, full AA and full AF. The 1280x960 screen will come across a bit cleaner, but the 640x480 screen will still have all the same polys, all the same lighting, all the same effects, all the same textures, etc as the higher res screen, just at a lower res.
as much as I hate image file comparisons, that does a REALLY good job of showing the difference between the two. possibly the best example short of actually sitting in front of an HD Tivo and changing resolution on the fly.HomerSimpson-Man said:
although it should be noted that this is still not entirely representative. he shrunk 1080i down but at the same time enlarged the DVD pic (from native 720 vertical lines to 852 vertical lines)
I also disagree with his assesment that the difference is dramatic. Dramatic to me is I can scan the pic half asleep and see an immediate difference. not I look at the trees in the background and the leaves are slightly more defined.
SolidSnakex said:
So?
-People bitched that the PS2 is the weakest system
-People bitched that PS2's online wasn't as good as Xbox's
See, it's true that people complained about those things too, but in the end, did it make a damn difference? Well, maybe an infinitessimal amount. BUT IT WAS A DIFFERENCE RIGHT! SELL YOUR REVOLUTIONS IT'S ALL OVER!
Once again, I'll ask:
And comparing the lack of HD to to online and carts is stupid. Carts limited developers with actual game content. Online is another experience of playing games. Neither of these will even be close to the impact that lack of HD will have.
Also, sorry if I'm uneducated about the HD concept, but doesn't 720p simply mean the same quality picture as a 480p but at a bigger image?
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Oblivion said:
It also allows developers to make larger and more detailed textures that can only be really seen at 720p. You also get a cleaner and sharper image which adds a weird sort of depth to the image itself. 720p is more than just 480p but a bigger image.
One thing I'm thinking about, if you use the Revolution with a HDTV, will expanding out the screen affect how the controller will react? I wonder if the wand won't be as responsive on a stretched out screen than have the game in boxed 4:3 mode.
My concern is still form factor. 16:9 view > 4:3 view any day of the week
16:9 mandatory Nintendo is the way to go. Don't give your gamers tunnel vision anymore in games. Expand the visible screen!
My concern is still form factor. 16:9 view > 4:3 view any day of the week
16:9 mandatory Nintendo is the way to go. Don't give your gamers tunnel vision anymore in games. Expand the visible screen!
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
And no hdtv will limit customer's choice in games as developer and developer will claim they can't port thier game to Revolution b/c it doesn't do HDTV.Oblivion said:
At the very least you gotta make your machine in the ballpark with the others for the sake of ports.
borghe said:
You completely sidestepped my (passive, I suppose) assumption that the Revolution won't be ABLE to do that. Not to mention that not all midrange cards can DO all the effects the high range cards can...
Yes, I see what you did there. And if Nintendo is planning that, it's not cool.
Increasing resolution is a game of ever decreasing returns. At some point colour fidelity and geometric richness becomes more important.
Video games are way past that point.
They need to focus on increasing the polycounts and resolution of textures instead of the resolution of final image.
Nintendo saves huge amounts of bandwidth (the framebuffer updating being the most bandwidth hungry part of the rendering).
They can cut down on lines on the PCB, frequency can be lowered and the number of shading pipes fewer, and still have more power per pixel than 360.
Also you need fever MIP levels for lower resolutions so memory is saved. And Geometry loding can be more aggressive.
Video games are way past that point.
They need to focus on increasing the polycounts and resolution of textures instead of the resolution of final image.
Nintendo saves huge amounts of bandwidth (the framebuffer updating being the most bandwidth hungry part of the rendering).
They can cut down on lines on the PCB, frequency can be lowered and the number of shading pipes fewer, and still have more power per pixel than 360.
Also you need fever MIP levels for lower resolutions so memory is saved. And Geometry loding can be more aggressive.
My PC monitor is still 4:3. I need to get a widescreen LCD. Don't know.
So you have detailed information about Revolution hardware to know this is true? We probably shouldn't comment on how this is going to benefit Nintendo until we know exactly what is packed in the system. For all we know X360 could be doing both: higher resolution and more pixel shading power.
Squeak said:
So you have detailed information about Revolution hardware to know this is true? We probably shouldn't comment on how this is going to benefit Nintendo until we know exactly what is packed in the system. For all we know X360 could be doing both: higher resolution and more pixel shading power.
Squeak said:
I disagree. That might be true if TV screens were all the same size as they were ten years ago, but the problem is that the average size of televisions just keeps getting larger. When the PS1 launched, a 30"+ set was a big-screen TV. Today, that's on the small side. Having played plenty of 480i and 480p games on my 46" HDTV, I can assure you that video games are most definitely not way past that point, or even at it. Even with 480p games on a screen that size, the jaggies are so pronounced that the diagonals looks like saw blades.
Resolution isn't everything, sure, but it's still important. Regular old Xbox games that run in 720p look significantly better on my new set than they did on my old SDTV set, even though the only difference is the resolution.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Monk said:
Thats not the bext comparison because its scaling the image so you can't tell the difference. Heres a better comparison....
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Mrbob said:
This is starting to be a real pet peeve of mine. HDTV for the most part means you also now have a widescreen TV. With 360, and I think it's safe to say PS3 as well, every game should be automatically HD and widescreen formated. With no HD in Rev. that also means at most widescreen optional so you will always have a gimped black bar screen when playing. The question of how stretching the screen will effect you how you use the magic Rev wand is a good question as well.
Flo_Evans said:click on one of the images to see the full sized HD one.... the thumbs are scaled down
edit: and where can I get this HD version of LOTR?
TNTHD just showed it awhile back. I think it should show up once in awhile on the Premium HD channels, I just don't know who shows them, HBO or Starz I think.
UltraMarioMan
Member
One thing not being considered here that despite what the many tech-heads here think its going to be a good while before HDTV becomes the standard. People tend not to replace TV's untill they break. I know this my grandparents used a b&w from like the 60's TV into the late 80's. (How they hooked cable to it I'll never know) Unless all the current TV's explode its going to take longer then most people here think.
UltraMarioMan said:
Thats quite possible, but gamers are not most people. Maybe that is part of the total rev strategy: they are not targeting harcore gamers, they are targeting hardcore gamers grandparents with their old bubble TV's.
To be honest I don't even have a HDTV yet. Reason being, most of the content avalible does not intrest me. (and I have been playing PC games at at least 1280x1024 for years) I do plan on buying one before this time next year though.
HDTV adoption rate +1
reallyfull said:Here is a comparison I made with a game that is available on a nextgen console (Xbox 360) the game is Quake 4 for the pc. All images where taken using the highest ingame settings (ultra quality textures) 4xAA and 16xAF. Images were compressed and resized from .tga's to .jpg using save quality 96% and disabled color subsampling. I would have saved to .png but imageshack has a 1024KB limit :\
Quake 4 - 480p 4xAA 16xAF:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2649/q4480p4xaa16xaf3ci.jpg
Quake 4 - 720P 4xAA 16xAF
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2817/q4720p4xaa16xaf2nl.jpg
Quake 4 - 1080p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8982/q41080p4xaa16xaf8qr.jpg
Quake 4 - 480p scaled to 720p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/611/q4480pto720p4xaa16xaf3wo.jpg
Quake 4 - 480p scaled to 1080p 4xAA 16xAF
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6234/q4480pto1080p4xaa16xaf9sq.jpg
Judge for yourselves
could you get a shot of the pic in 1080p and resize it to 480p? As I have no hdtv it will be more relevent to me.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Technically wouldn't the Revolution be capable of displaying HD resolutions?
I mean if the Xbox could do it and it now can be considered old tech. I believe the Revolution will render the titles at high resolutions, but downsample them for to 480p.
I mean if the Xbox could do it and it now can be considered old tech. I believe the Revolution will render the titles at high resolutions, but downsample them for to 480p.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
reallyfull said:
its kinda hard to really see the difference because they arent the same frame grabs.. look at the gun muzzle.. its different .. and the heart beat thing is as well.. so the lighting/steam might be at different locations, and strengths..