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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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Minsc
Gold Member
Mass dispel is seriously underrated imo, I run 2 in my priest deck, and I'm almost always finding them very useful. After Naxx is out, it'll pretty much be a Priest staple, so might as well get used to it now.
Yea I agree with the usefulness in Naxx, I just didn't realize people were running it these days.Mass dispel is seriously underrated imo, I run 2 in my priest deck, and I'm almost always finding them very useful. After Naxx is out, it'll pretty much be a Priest staple, so might as well get used to it now.
Yep. I run 1 and it helps immensely especially against rogue.Mass dispel is seriously underrated imo, I run 2 in my priest deck, and I'm almost always finding them very useful. After Naxx is out, it'll pretty much be a Priest staple, so might as well get used to it now.
I am hoping the priest well be competitive in Naxx.
Fixed.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I hope shadow priest becomes a bit more viable.
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
Does GAF want to help me spend 4800 dust?
I was thinking about going with a control Paladin deck, since I have just about every Paladin card but just not sure how I should go about it. I play primarily Rogue, Priest, and some Pally nowadays but I have a slight interest in Druid as well. I was also thinking about going after some epics that I don't have (Molten Giants, Big Game Hunter, etc). Here's some legendaries I already have:
Rag
Sylvanas
Leeroy
Thalnos
Lord Jaraxxus
Baron Geddon
Edwin Van Cleef
I was thinking about going with a control Paladin deck, since I have just about every Paladin card but just not sure how I should go about it. I play primarily Rogue, Priest, and some Pally nowadays but I have a slight interest in Druid as well. I was also thinking about going after some epics that I don't have (Molten Giants, Big Game Hunter, etc). Here's some legendaries I already have:
Rag
Sylvanas
Leeroy
Thalnos
Lord Jaraxxus
Baron Geddon
Edwin Van Cleef
DyslexicAlucard
Member
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
DyslexicAlucard
Member
...he has all of those already.
Doh. I am used to seeing lists of what people want. Then Cairne, Harrison Jones, and a class legendary or epics I suppose.
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
Jones? Didn't really think about him. Thought The Black Knight would be the one after Cairne.
Fragamemnon
Member
Legend through rank 3 or so is nothing but Handlock, Druids of all flavors, and Miracle Rogues. I expect Dreamhack (starts tomorrow) is going to have quite a bit of representation from those classes. The freeze mage hype has died down a bit and there's still people playing Zoo but way less than at lower ranks.
I'm running into the Pyrotechnic control Hunter build more and more, and Freeze Mage less and less. Those are the only two trends that are more or less clearly identifiable based on my stats.
I'm running into the Pyrotechnic control Hunter build more and more, and Freeze Mage less and less. Those are the only two trends that are more or less clearly identifiable based on my stats.
Both BK and Jones depend on the playstyle and current meta of the moment. THe big difference is BK is much more highly dependent on the meta than jones since he is a 6 mana 4/5 where as Jones, even useless, is a 5 mana 5/4 body.
Jones is criminally underrated and I am surprised I don't see him in more play more often.
Onion_Relish
Member
So I thoughtstole a leeroy off a miracle rogue... Bet he was pretty surprised with the turn 10 inner fire on ysera, leeroy and ysera awakens. Miracle priest what's up
ShinNL
Member
As if I'm the norm for deck building xD
I personally like running at least 1 mass dispel in all my priest decks because it has so many uses. It's kind of the fan of knives but for Priests.
The deck in the screenshot is an exception because I was playing a deck completely focused on stealing. It has no Holy Nova nor Holy Fire. So to keep things under control, or to debuff things back to Priest range, is quite essential.
hypersheep
Member
Been playing some Bloodlust shaman lately and it's been really fun. Though often I have a bunch of 0 or 1 attack minions and one bloodlust isn't quite enough to finish the job, so I have to keep two in my deck.
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
Didn't see that coming. =/
I went and spent most of the liquid dust I've accumulated - haven't crafted anything before. Bought a bunch of rares (doomguards, argus, jugglers) for my zoo deck that had been at rank 15. Went and played 20 games, when I stopped I was at at rank 9 with 75% winrate. I'm starting to believe you guys though - it's not the cards (or the preceding grinding/paying for dust) that make you win; I just kinda instantly became a more skilled, better player. Must be a coincidence that it happened while I was clicking the craft button.
Fragamemnon
Member
The mulligan mechanic in HS really makes for stuff like this to happen too often, to the detriment of early drops and aggro decks. I much prefer a "keep it all/ship it all" system.
What's your point? Congrats on playing one of the consistently best decks in the game. One that can easily be crafted with the free gold the game hands out to new players if you disenchanted everything else. I'm not sure what you think you proved.
Rare cards are hardly cost prohibitive for anybody.
Nothing. I'm just sharing my joy about my newfound skill at the game.
I'm certainly not making fun of people claiming that grinding/paying for cards has no effect on winning.
tbh, it should be buffed in mana (make it 3 mana) or make the other silence spell 1 mana and draw a card.Mass dispel is seriously underrated imo, I run 2 in my priest deck, and I'm almost always finding them very useful. After Naxx is out, it'll pretty much be a Priest staple, so might as well get used to it now.
Of course you aren't making fun of them... if anything you prove them right by (without spending money) crafting a cheap deck that wins without trouble against much more expensive decks... so grats on the newfound skill, I guess!
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You just crafted and played with the deck that completely proves our point and makes you look silly. Congratz indeed.
paperboywriter
Member
Is there good stat tracking Software/app/website for hearthstone on PC and or iPad?
Minsc
Gold Member
I don't think anyone was actually arguing the game wasn't P2W because the cards are all equally strong, in a certain deck certain cards are better than others. Going back to your post earlier, I know I saw a lot more Bloodfen Raptors in Hunter decks than I do KJs. And I see more KJs in warlock zoo decks than I do Raptors.
That doesn't make it P2W, anyone can do what you just did for free with minimal time and have a zoolock deck that is viable to rank 5, if not legendary.
The game is not P2W because paying money doesn't make you win more than someone who plays for free. What you did (build a zoolock deck) any free player could do with minimal dust if they wanted. There's no advantage to someone who makes a Zoolock deck with $1000+ vs someone who makes one for free.
I could not have built the full form of this deck before grinding for tens of hours. This alone means the game is blatantly grind-to-win / pay-to-win. I could have cut the time by dusting useful cards that don't fit in this deck, which would push back my access to any other decent deck and set me further back in terms of when I can reach actual parity; even then it would have taken me low tens of hours.
With just one deck, a person is not on even footing with people with more cards (= more grind/money). I have no recourse whenever meta is strongly against this particular deck. Even assuming this was an absolute top tier deck, it might still not be the best for my particular skills and playstyle, and I have no access to the other decks to verify that. And with just one good deck I don't stand a chance in standard tournament format.
I'm in game design, so I'm not going to ignore unfair edges in a competetive game, no matter how small they are. At no point have I said the game requires no skill to play; to the contrary, I have said that as you accumulate cards, the game eventually becomes 100% skill.
Curious: Is your issue that you do not have access to all cards right away, or that you believe that the paid/grinded cards are of better quality than the free ones? I'm wondering if you consider this a balance issue or if you are just opposed to the concept of players not having a perfectly even playing field where they both have all of the cards available.
Edit: Apparently you just answered the question in the post above. I agree there is an edge, but that's something that just comes with this type of game, and despite the unfairness I think it makes the game better as long as it's minimal. If we all had the same cards from the start, a lot of people would tire of the game more quickly, and a lot of the cards that aren't in netdecks would not see any use. Slowly giving the player cards helps keep the game interesting, as you constantly get new options for how to approach the game. If everyone got all the cards, we would all be waiting for Nyxx to change things up. I've only been playing a month or so, and my decks keep changing whenever I get a good card. That keeps the game interesting.
Minsc
Gold Member
I think your problem is your goal is out of line with the normal expectations. Your goal seems to be to have every useful card in the game at your disposal, and that isn't necessary to win or play. You simply have to set a more reasonable goal than "get every last meta deck built in under a day or it's P2W" which isn't necessary for the game.
Set a goal that lets you enjoy playing a normal amount through dailies and Arena winnings, and you'll see the game is perfectly enjoyable without owning every last legendary and expensive netdeck.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You're really embellishing here to try to prove your point. What exactly is your answer for acquiring cards without any effort? Just give everyone all the cards? This is armchair designer stuff right from the WoW forums.
Yep. When I began this game I just played it for fun. Eventually I knew enough to make my goal be a control warrior deck. That's the deck I worked on for weeks. Then I wanted a shaman deck so I worked on that. Now rogue.. and so on.. why would I think I could have access to every card without any work, or money spent..?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Minsc defined it as best as possible for this game a page back. This game doesn't fit into any p2w definition except a wrong one. It's more of an rng2w than p2w.
For a cumulative, persistent CCG to exist, there must be elements of paying for cards or grinding for them.
There is just absolutely no way around this.
You could argue about semantics as much as you please, but at the end of the day this is the form the game takes and they didn't really go out of the way deceive you into thinking this was some other kind of game like DOTP or Ascension. You agreed to the terms and pacing of the game when you started playing it.
For your "complaints" to be addressed, they would have to fundamentally change the business model and content structure of the game, which already has already generated many thousands of dollars it from millions of players by now, I imagine, hardly a winning proposition. Even in the realm of card games, Hearthstone is generous. They pretty much throw cards at you from the very start, and there is a grinding option if you're good (most card games don't even have that, unless you're in the top 5% of players).
I mean, I get where these complaints are coming from, but they are entirely pointless. This is how card games work.
There is just absolutely no way around this.
You could argue about semantics as much as you please, but at the end of the day this is the form the game takes and they didn't really go out of the way deceive you into thinking this was some other kind of game like DOTP or Ascension. You agreed to the terms and pacing of the game when you started playing it.
For your "complaints" to be addressed, they would have to fundamentally change the business model and content structure of the game, which already has already generated many thousands of dollars it from millions of players by now, I imagine, hardly a winning proposition. Even in the realm of card games, Hearthstone is generous. They pretty much throw cards at you from the very start, and there is a grinding option if you're good (most card games don't even have that, unless you're in the top 5% of players).
I mean, I get where these complaints are coming from, but they are entirely pointless. This is how card games work.
It's basically always a balance issue when players do not have the same tools available; you can see some of the reasons in my last post. Some developers (and I'm not saying Blizzard has claimed this) would like you to believe it's possible to have a fair competetive game where money or time only gives you "different ways to play" but 99% of the time that's bullshit. The exception is something so obviously terrible that it's never worth playing in a serious game.
Hearthstone actually does a quite good job balancing the power of the cards so that the basic set is not awful and a lot of it stays in use even after access to all cards, but clearly expensive cards have more power in many instances.
Minsc
Gold Member
The complaints don't make any sense to me given we've seen top decks at legendary use very few of the expensive cards (like the Hunter deck from two seasons ago), it's not like they're a requirement. PVP seasons are a month long, and in under a single month a player can go from starting from scratch to legendary rank without spending a cent on the game (and it's done often). If it were P2W, there wouldn't be free players beating the ones that paid money.
You ever see those joke threads in bnet about "I built an expensive P2W deck and free rush decks are beating me"? Well there's truth in it.
You aren't meant to have every deck possible in a week, nor is it necessary to win. The normal scope of time for a game like this isn't a day or even a week. You aren't supposed to have a control warrior deck in a day or two, and control warrior decks that use a bunch of the most expensive cards lose to very cheap decks.
This is incidental. It's perfectly possible for a top tier deck to absolutely require 5-6 Legendaries, as the EU Druid of old did, and the Control Warrior that took its place. It is, at the end of the day, always up to Blizzard to push this or that meta at the highest level of play. Zoolock and poverty aggro decks weren't always in vogue, it took time for them for them to be discovered and they usually got shut down as soon they popped up. It was very fortunate that Zoolock has proven itself time and time again, because it gives newer players a cheap option for climbing the ranks.
Water is not arguing about the practicalities of achieving Legend as a purely non-grinding, non-paying player, but the very principle of the imbalance between grinders, payers, and casuals. A bit silly, yes, but I've made similar arguments in the past against League of Legends so I'm used to this line of thought.
If you are expecting perfect balance, I would just stay out of constructed. Making all cards available to everyone right away would actually harm the longevity of the game(see my edit in my previous post). This is just one of those situations where what you want out of a game and what it intends to provide differ. However, they do offer a mode for people like you: Arena. Other than RNG, which they can't get rid of in a card game, it is 100% fair.
P2W confirmed GG Blizzard worst game of all time.
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