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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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ShinNL
Member
Well, I'm not the one being so overly scared of Zoo. It's just an example that adding more and more AoE cards will reduce Zoo's chances a lot. Pretty much all my successful decks have 2 Wild Pyromancers and class AoE.
But what people want is 'do their own thing' while still winning against Zoo. Gosh, or maybe change a few cards and actually play reactively. But you know, people are all about piloting decks, editing/making decks seems to be a big sin here.
I'm all up for editing decks, but at the same time I want a balanced deck, not a counter to just one type of strategy.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Quick question...
Tinkmaster Overspark, keep or dust?
Tinkmaster Overspark, keep or dust?
If you're in any sort of need of dust, dust.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Officerrob
Banned
3 am Wednesday on the east coast again, fucking ridiculous
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Tinkmaster meta after Spectral Knight
Silence via battlecry and it is just a 4/6.
But I think the main way to deal with a heavy spectral knight meta will be establishing board control as a means of removal rather than just using spells to remove.
Did they post when it will be available?
Drake is card draw, and is amazing in a heavy Priest meta.. but with all the Mages and Warlocks running around, they simply have no problem dealing with its body. Loatheb and Spectral Knight are strong alternatives.
I guess Zoo has really become the new Miracle (which was the new UTH Hunter).
Oh Hearthstone community you're so salty*.
People will never be happy with the meta until they are enjoying a 90-100% win rate with their deck of choice.
Anyway, I like Hunter against Zoo. Zoo plays right into Buzzard + Unleash. And if they play around it, then they're holding back and slowing down in fear of it, which gives me a higher chance to get to mid game where I start putting out the big sticky beasts.
They have to commit a lot of resources into dealing with things like a Houndmaster + Oasis Snapjaw or Savannah Highmane. Meanwhile if you take a more aggressive approach, you put a lot of pressure on the Warlock and make them less comfortable about tapping.
I sometimes add Arcane Shot or even Multi-Shot to my deck to deal with early pressure since I need about turn 5-6 to really get going.
*What is the origin of "salty"?
Oh Hearthstone community you're so salty*.
People will never be happy with the meta until they are enjoying a 90-100% win rate with their deck of choice.
Anyway, I like Hunter against Zoo. Zoo plays right into Buzzard + Unleash. And if they play around it, then they're holding back and slowing down in fear of it, which gives me a higher chance to get to mid game where I start putting out the big sticky beasts.
They have to commit a lot of resources into dealing with things like a Houndmaster + Oasis Snapjaw or Savannah Highmane. Meanwhile if you take a more aggressive approach, you put a lot of pressure on the Warlock and make them less comfortable about tapping.
I sometimes add Arcane Shot or even Multi-Shot to my deck to deal with early pressure since I need about turn 5-6 to really get going.
*What is the origin of "salty"?
Minsc
Gold Member
IMO, the rarest (and possibly most valuable) complaints in Hearthstone are the nerf requests directly from people who are primarily running the decks the complaints are about. So zoo nerf fixes from people who play mainly zoo, freeze mage nerfs from people who main freeze mage up the ladder, etc.
It's easy to complain about the decks you lose to, far harder (and more insightful) to complain about the decks you (not others) consistently win with, in terms of weakening them to balance the game. Saying Miracle Rogue needs a nerf from seeing others beat you all the time, and getting to legendary with Miracle Rogue and still thinking it are two different things I feel.
I have incredible luck with priests (~75% win ratio) when I can play non-zoo games, which happens a lot for some weird reason when I pick priest. I made it through my last win 5 60g quest in exactly 5 games.
Priest vs Paladin in particular is usually an auto-win, especially if they go with the slower control build.
Absolutely agree. When I see a top end player who finds high success with a deck and then complains about it needing to be nerfed, I take what they say to heart. I don't find much value in the loser complaining about the winning deck though.
I also take into account the person complaining. If they have a history of being "salty" at everything (like Reynad) then I consider it a little less valuable.
Like how everyone at the top end at the time complained about the Charge + Giants Warrior deck or 8 mana Pyroblast.
Doesn't this suggest that zoo should be nerfed? I mean UTH got nerfed, miracle got loatheb, a card specifically designed to counter them. Sounds to me like if the rest of the naxx cards don't favor well vs zoo then they will nerf or buff something.
Unless you think old UTH was balanced?
I play Zoo sometimes, it's fun for about half an hour and then is just really repetitive. But ya, don't hef to be mad, it's only game.
All I seems to play against is Warlock, Hunter or Mage. Mage matchup was fine though.
I don't have enough statistics to be able to say if Zoo should or should not be nerfed (though I would "fight" about nerfing Warlock's hero ability). But part of my point was that it won't matter if it's nerfed or not. Some other deck will rise and take its place and then people will complain about that one. There will always be a popular deck that is powerful and there will always be an endless stream of whiners about it.
So I would say stop getting so mad about Hearthstone. Even if this one is nerfed, you'll just continue to be mad at the next thing. Then the next. Then the next. Then the next...
That's not a very good way to enjoy a game.
Also my personal opinion about Zoo is that it's better than all the other "overpowered" decks in the past. It's interactive, and as partyphone says in a post below, "zoo is good at what the core of the game is designed around". It's not sudden 25 damage combo turns or stalling at 1 life for 2+ turns to draw their win card. It's pure minion trading gameplay.
partyphone
Banned
you actually don't want to be life tapping before turn 5 if you're playing zoo. you want to dump your hand so you can play doomguard on 5 without discarding anything(or maybe just one card). the warlock hero power helps them not run out of steam after turn 5. there's also the 2 quality 1 drops that warlock has. so increasing the life cost probably won't do much.
it's a hard problem to solve because zoo is good at what the core of the game is designed around: playing minions and fighting for board control. the deck establishes board control on turn 1 and never lets go. it's why they nerfed freeze mage and UTH and charge. those decks just stalled out the game until they could draw their win condition. it wasn't interactive or fun.
so how do they nerf zoo while maintaining their core design philosophy? you have to come up with cards that are generally good against zoo but that can't be used by zoo. so it probably can't be neutral cards. it needs to be very carefully crafted class cards and i have no idea what those would even look.
it's a hard problem to solve because zoo is good at what the core of the game is designed around: playing minions and fighting for board control. the deck establishes board control on turn 1 and never lets go. it's why they nerfed freeze mage and UTH and charge. those decks just stalled out the game until they could draw their win condition. it wasn't interactive or fun.
so how do they nerf zoo while maintaining their core design philosophy? you have to come up with cards that are generally good against zoo but that can't be used by zoo. so it probably can't be neutral cards. it needs to be very carefully crafted class cards and i have no idea what those would even look.
Been announced a long time ago, beating all heroics in all wings gets you the Naxx card back.
partyphone
Banned
Your right, and I agree with you.
However, I think there are 2 types of decks people complain about:
1. Annoying decks that are strong in a meta, but that are balanced. Bonus points if it feels like you lose to RNG.
2. Decks that are actually unbalanced. I have no idea which decks these are, but I will trust the devs and say that old UTH and 8 mana pyro decks were.
I don't really know enough about the game to say if zoo is type 1 or 2, but I bet if the naxx cards don't change things it gets nerfed (my guess).
I mean, isn't the point of the thread to speculate and talk about the game? Can't say anything negative or it's lol u salty bro!
Sorry if I came off that way. I normally encourage venting because I know Hearthstone can get frustrating (as any PvP game can). I was just trying to say to step back a bit if you're feeling particularly negative lest you become Yoshichan.
I complained about things in this thread a lot. I speculated on the nerfing of Miracle here too.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I set my computer clock forward because I didn't want to get stuck not having access until Saturday morning again. Hopefully this won't fuck up in any way
partyphone
Banned
the problem is that it's consistent, impotent rage and complaints that have no basis in fact.
my problem with zoo is that it's way too common and i'm tired of playing 75% of my games against it.
If anything needs to be nerfed I would say it's Soulfire. 0 mana. You lose a card sure but the hero ability counters that. Plus the deck is about emptying their hand onto the board, so much of the time it doesn't even cost a card.
Soulfire is just way too powerful in the early game to maintain board control and the tempo advantage. It is also very powerful late game to finish the opponent passed taunts after they would have otherwise stabilized or to aid in making good trades.
Soulfire is just way too powerful in the early game to maintain board control and the tempo advantage. It is also very powerful late game to finish the opponent passed taunts after they would have otherwise stabilized or to aid in making good trades.
depths20XX
Member
I hadn't really thought about it but why isn't the new Naxx game board available in constructed or arena? It seems kind of wasted to just have it in the PvE content. I understand they want the money for Naxx but still...it's just a game board.
I'm confused. Why do you need to do this?
Last time we purchased the wing it got stuck in an authorization loop that wouldn't let us play it, or arena, or buy packs for 3 days.
It largely depends on the approach. I just find the whole "Fuck people who play no skill decks like Zoo" to be an incredibly unhealthy approach to the game. It creates a blind spot to your play and just keeps offloading your results onto other people. And it'll perpetuate the loop of always complaining about the current popular thing for all the wrong reasons.
"Way too common" has been the complaint about the warlock class since last October, and that will continue to be the case simply because the Warlock ability is better than all of the rest, especially with how the class cards synergize with it..
Ah ok. That would suck.
I agree a soulfire nerf would change things. Maybe make the discard a requirement so top decking or tapping into soulfire isn't so strong, or make it cost 1 mana to make less powerful early. Even making it do 3 dmg would go a long way I think.
partyphone
Banned
it's not strictly better in a general sense. but of course the best warlock decks are going to take advantage of the hero power. it's why they're the best warlock decks and why they don't work as well for other classes.
zoo is rampant because it's super cheap for how effective it is. if miracle rogue didn't have epics and legendaries then you'd see a lot more of it on ladder. as i climb i see more and more of it.
side note, i've been playing control warrior the past couple weeks but i've cut some of the heavier cards in favor of anti-zoo tech. so my control matchup efficacy suffers when the other control deck hasn't made similar cuts. which makes me wonder about how they fair against zoo or aggro decks. probably not well. that ysera i couldn't deal with efficiently isn't going to help you when you die on turn 7.
It's not just cheap, it's easy to play and pretty hard to screw up. I think that's what aggravates a lot of people.
depths20XX
Member
I seem to do well with Shaman against Zoo. I'm guessing that's one of the better matchups against it? Or at least it can be because I have like 65-70% win rate against it last time I checked.
The sheer fact that Zoo's so popular makes piloting Zoo a lot harder than some other decks: Trying to consistently win 55-60%+ of your games vs a mirror match is hard.
It depends on the list. Historically, Shaman's vs Zoo match-up is weird since many of their lists play a similar gameplan of board control but it's closer to midrange than early. They have the tools for dealing with Zoo but it's just a case of needing the cards to execute it and then needing the cards to go off after it. So it's slightly less consistent than you'd like but really good when it works.
Granted, the meta shaving off some of the other matchups to worry about means that the deck can be tuned for more anti-Zoo to raise that consistency. That's the nice part of having a narrow meta.
It depends on the list. Historically, Shaman's vs Zoo match-up is weird since many of their lists play a similar gameplan of board control but it's closer to midrange than early. They have the tools for dealing with Zoo but it's just a case of needing the cards to execute it and then needing the cards to go off after it. So it's slightly less consistent than you'd like but really good when it works.
Granted, the meta shaving off some of the other matchups to worry about means that the deck can be tuned for more anti-Zoo to raise that consistency. That's the nice part of having a narrow meta.
Are you running that list with earth elementals and the spell that makes them come back on death? That squashes zoo pretty hard if they can't kill you before that happens. (or runs silences)
Deadceptor
Member
Yup, Hunter is so much fun against Zoo. My personal favorite for turn 3-4 is to throw down a Buzzard and Explosive Trap. They pretty much always ignore the Buzzard expecting Snakes and then bam, the board is clear.
Doomshroom
Member
Yeah ligthing storm, forked lightnig and fearal spirit works wonders vs Zoo.
Freeze Mage should be an easy win for Hunters if you're running 2 Flares.
Ran 0, switched to 1 after getting wrecked by one.
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