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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
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Mobius and pet octopus
Member
On value town talking about warsong nerf:
Jab points out that in the NA qualifiers only 2 people brought patron warrior
Reynad "How'd they do?"
"They got first and second."
lol
Jab points out that in the NA qualifiers only 2 people brought patron warrior
Reynad "How'd they do?"
"They got first and second."
lol
fixed that for ya.
I'm going 8-2 in brawl playing as mage so far #skillmatters
In like 4 games I had Rhonin and Archmage in my opening hand.
In one other game I opened with Hogger which was insane actually, I like this card.
Other games were just some random cards. I had to make tough decisions to go face or not go face and going face like 4 out of 5 times was correct.
In like 4 games I had Rhonin and Archmage in my opening hand.
In one other game I opened with Hogger which was insane actually, I like this card.
Other games were just some random cards. I had to make tough decisions to go face or not go face and going face like 4 out of 5 times was correct.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Hahaha, playing this paladin in brawl and he's played 5 Eadrics and 3 Bolvars.
(MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
So many Mogors. This is probably the first time a lot of people have even seen that card.
Well Deathwing with windfury was fun
Super Nothing
Member
I saw one pop out of Sneed's the other day, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone intentionally play it. It had a 50/50 chance of screwing me out of lethal and very likely losing next turn, but it didn't work out for the other guy.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I used to use it for fun in a few decks. Pretty much every time I played it the other guy would scroll over it for 10 seconds, or just ignore it then try to attack...then scroll over it for 15 seconds wondering what the fuck just happened
Oh yeah I remember why, I had him and decided to tech him in against Patron. 50% of the time it worked 100% of the time.
Fixed1979
Member
I put one in a mage RNG deck which then got mirror entitied, I'm sure it must have been one of the only times there were ever two of them on the board at once...unsurprisingly I lost every match it played with that thing.
Ohhh yeah, somethings definitely flowing, thats for sure.
Oh most definitely, its just nice to see something done about these crappy decks here and there; Especially when they are this bad. Miracle and Old Buzzard weren't nearly as bad as patron. Just a completely terrible deck and it drew masses of bad players. Their tears sustain me; bathing in the schadenfreude over here. Tourneys will be watchable again! Viva la freedom!
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
ben brode talks about warsong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PprkXykU5xM&feature=youtu.be
edit:
Punished for playing minions.
Felt really bad to lose to.
Really messed up when they nerfed the card the first time. They wanted to maintain resemblance to original text, but should have disabled giving other minions charge.
Charge is problematic in HS because you can't interact with charge except to set up prior.
They chose warsong commander to nerf because it is the most problematic today - and going forward.
They originally wanted to make dreadsteed a neutral minion and release in naxxramas but they couldn't because of how broken it would be with warsong commander. Later released the card in warlock because of warsong commander.
It really limited neutral cards to be made in the future.
The reasoning as to the specific nerf is pretty difficult to explain in short, but I'll try. They wanted to keep it linked with charge and they didn't want to change its stats. They wanted something really simple as well. They tried many variations but this one felt the best. So I think the why nerf warsong commander questions answered really well but the why as to the way they nerfed it wasn't explained very clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PprkXykU5xM&feature=youtu.be
edit:
Punished for playing minions.
Felt really bad to lose to.
Really messed up when they nerfed the card the first time. They wanted to maintain resemblance to original text, but should have disabled giving other minions charge.
Charge is problematic in HS because you can't interact with charge except to set up prior.
They chose warsong commander to nerf because it is the most problematic today - and going forward.
They originally wanted to make dreadsteed a neutral minion and release in naxxramas but they couldn't because of how broken it would be with warsong commander. Later released the card in warlock because of warsong commander.
It really limited neutral cards to be made in the future.
The reasoning as to the specific nerf is pretty difficult to explain in short, but I'll try. They wanted to keep it linked with charge and they didn't want to change its stats. They wanted something really simple as well. They tried many variations but this one felt the best. So I think the why nerf warsong commander questions answered really well but the why as to the way they nerfed it wasn't explained very clearly.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I understand all that but they might as well just removed the card from the game because no one is going to play that. Is completely annihilating a card (and in this case a whole deck) really any worse then impeding design space? The answer is probably no but it's just so heavy handed.
They seem very okay with making bad cards...but I don't really have a deeper understanding as to why.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I felt like patron warrior would be nerfed primarily because of the whole punishes you for playing minions portion. In that respect it felt like a UTH+buzzard combo that killed you rather than giving you a massive hand size and winning over the next couple of turns.
I do feel the loss of a combo deck but I think it needed to happen regardless. And we'll see if people can cook up some patron warrior decks in the future that don't include warsong commander. It's not like the goal had one singular way to win, after all, and could also win just based on strong patron floods. It remains to be seen if that sort of method is gimmick or viable, but probably the former.
I do feel the loss of a combo deck but I think it needed to happen regardless. And we'll see if people can cook up some patron warrior decks in the future that don't include warsong commander. It's not like the goal had one singular way to win, after all, and could also win just based on strong patron floods. It remains to be seen if that sort of method is gimmick or viable, but probably the former.
So when will secrets be nerfed?
They don't all punish you for playing minions tho
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
What? Are we even talking about the same thing? Secrets don't punish you for playing minions the same way that warsong+frothing+whirlwind did. Not even close.
What I am talking about is that you play an extra minion and that only feeds another 5-10 damage to your opponent's OTK combo. Secrets do nothing like that... except eye for an eye which is a terrible card.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
You can at least punish Mirror Entity by playing Zombie Chow, Darnassus Aspirant, etc.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think you misunderstood what I was saying when I said they punish you.
There is a huge degree of difference between mirror entity and warsong + frothing combos. Mirror entity gives you the opportunity to give it extremely low value. Like a 2 mana minion played into mirror entity makes it so the mage played a 2 mana minion for 3 mana.
So when will mc tech be removed from the game?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
When MC tech causes OTKs?
You know that the whole "punish" was only one aspect of why it got removed right? You can argue mirror entity and MCT punish you, or various other cards, but until they OTK you or have such high value like buzzard+UTH, you aren't even coming close to why they nerfed warsong.
Truly, Face is the Place.
I don't because it doesn't change how Frothing operates. There are lots of things that punish you in this game for dropping loads of minions on the board and Warsong is not technically the piece that abuses tons of stuff being on the board.
Not all classes run or want to run many two mana drops. This also supposes a world exists without broken cards like Mad Scientist.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If that were the case we would have seen nerfs to cards that punish over-extending, like MTC or equality clears or even flamestrike. This is just twitch level of discussion we're having here where we aren't fully addressing topics and just taking meme level shots at it.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Well look at that, the guy who designed the game knows far more about game design than any of the people in this thread shitting on others for pointing out the problem with the patron deck. What a surprise!
I love Brode. : D
There's the argument that something like Flamestrike or Brawl would punish you for playing more minions but the thing with Patron is that it seemingly punishes you for playing any minions. The only real "counter" to patron was AOE clears or huge taunts.
Do you not remember just how much people bitched about Equality/Consecrate and Flamestrike in the earlier days?
Do you know how they "solved" this problem? Deathrattles. Deathrattles everywhere. So now it's not enough to simply wipe a board, but you also have to deal with the aftermath.
Imagine that, solving a "problem" by making potential "solutions". What a bold and innovative approach to game balance.
For the record, I have already recognize all those points and ultimately, I know what kind of game Brode wants Hearthstone to be. I don't approve of it, but I don't make the game so my opinion counts for diddly squat.
I'm still going to complain, though, because it just makes the game dumber and dumber. The brawl this week is the end game of this kind of approach to design, where randomness is the only source of variation and alternative strategies are shunted off to the side. You can bet a viable mill deck will never last long either because it'll make players feel "bad" or whatever the fuck then they'll nerf it to oblivion after 5 months.
Dimb is right, there is no discussion to be had here really because some people want Hearthstone to be one kind of game and some people want Hearthstone to be another, with Brode being part of this latter group. So I might as well take cheap shots at this change. At least it's different from the "plz DELETE face hunter/christmasdin/rng/dr. balanced" 'discussion' that dominates the thread at all other times.
Realistically there is not a discussion to be had. Does anyone actually expect the game to be more fun and/or balanced after the nerf? 40 some designs on Warsong rework and this is what came out of it...
Now Warrior is substantially weaker, more predictable, prohibitively expensive to new players, and one of the more interesting deck types in the game has been removed. Instead of compensating for the nerf they went out of their way to build a bad card because they think new players will somehow construct charge decks around new Warsong Commander.
Why are cards like Emperor Thaurissan that enable huge combos across multiple classes allowed to continue existing while Warsong Commander comes under the gun? Think about all the hours that players invested in to learning how to play a Patron deck and then months later Blizzard just says, "Oh, you're actually not allowed to play the game this way." It's garbage.
Here I made a Loatheb for Patron, just off the top of my head.
Infinite Time-thief
5
Epic
Taunt
Battlecry: Your opponent has 5 seconds to make their play next turn.
Dragon
3/6
It's 3 damage so Patron's can't suicide into it,
It's 6 health so Deathbite can't kill it.
It has taunt so they need to break it sooner or later.
It's also a Dragon so it enables Dragon decks, particularly Dragon Priest which already has anti-Patron tools built in.
Infinite Time-thief
5
Epic
Taunt
Battlecry: Your opponent has 5 seconds to make their play next turn.
Dragon
3/6
It's 3 damage so Patron's can't suicide into it,
It's 6 health so Deathbite can't kill it.
It has taunt so they need to break it sooner or later.
It's also a Dragon so it enables Dragon decks, particularly Dragon Priest which already has anti-Patron tools built in.
Brode is full of shit like always surprise.
In the end he can't explain why the new text..obviously it comes down to money and everything they're doing here is explained very well by that, any other nerf and patron still playable wouldn't bode well for new expansions, that's fine just stop bullshitting, I don't think anyone finds his shtick funny these days.
In the end he can't explain why the new text..obviously it comes down to money and everything they're doing here is explained very well by that, any other nerf and patron still playable wouldn't bode well for new expansions, that's fine just stop bullshitting, I don't think anyone finds his shtick funny these days.
irfaanator
Banned
why not opponent skips next turn
With the mobile client that's what you get anyway 90% of the time.
LMAO don't quit your day job.
Here's a change that turns Patron into a Tier 2-3 deck but keeps it on life support and solves the Warsong Problem.
Warsong Commander
3
Battlecry, Deathrattle: Give a friendly minion Charge.
2/3
Flavorful too.
Warsong Commander
3
Battlecry, Deathrattle: Give a friendly minion Charge.
2/3
Flavorful too.
Is this a troll?
That answer was a joke. Brode was always a clown but at least he felt honest. The shit he said about the new warsong make clear he's lying and just spewing PR shit. "3 mana 2/3 is teh spirit of the card", just wow, amaze design insight
poppedcollar69
Member
Let's not get too worked up here
It's just an expression. Of course he's not going to say that Warrior will be OP or even the best class in Arena.
Calm down. The nerf makes sense, the 'buildaround' makes sense, the fact that WC was too complicated as a basic card makes sense, the only problem is that the card isn't strong enough to be played after the nerf. The latter could be said about 2/3 of Hearthstone cards.
What? That wasn't what I meant. Warrior is by far the worst class in arena, not one of them, and a peg will do fuck all in making it competitive.
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