-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
- Status
That is an obscene card, are you kidding me? You're acting like Patron is the only card that'd be used for, and it it definitely isn't.
This is also OP as hell, jesus.
BananasWithGuns
Member
In terms of Warsong affecting future cards and what the design team wants to do, the nerf makes a lot of sense. I still think the end result is dumb though. I'd be willing to buy "soul of the card" a little more if they hadn't essentially destroyed one of Warrior's class cards.
poppedcollar69
Member
Lay on hands into tirion, damn I'm pro XD
You balanced it according to Patron, though. Giving two minions charge with no restriction on what you're charging is ridiculous, especially for a sacrifice of only 1 mana worth of stats. Charging Sylvanas. Charging Dr. Boom. Charging Shieldmaidens. Charging Justicar.... come on.
ok watched the whole thing....
well, losing to charge minions isn't fun? So how about force of nature combo? How is that fine? These design inconsistency are so annoying, if they want to nerf charge, nerf everything else because starting next week there will be even more druid players and losing to combo sure doesn't feel good when you die from 22 health or who knows what these days after emperor drops.
If they care about feeling bad when losing, you know what feels bad to lose to? RNG, terrible cards like unstable portal. Of course they won't ever address it. You can't get more unfair than that.
They went through thirty to forty text and decided on this? And he actually admits the card is bad now and that new players wouldn't know how good the card is... nothing more needed to be said about how exactly this reflects on his team. wow
And some yeah whatever comment about arena deferring it to future. Great job there...
well, losing to charge minions isn't fun? So how about force of nature combo? How is that fine? These design inconsistency are so annoying, if they want to nerf charge, nerf everything else because starting next week there will be even more druid players and losing to combo sure doesn't feel good when you die from 22 health or who knows what these days after emperor drops.
If they care about feeling bad when losing, you know what feels bad to lose to? RNG, terrible cards like unstable portal. Of course they won't ever address it. You can't get more unfair than that.
They went through thirty to forty text and decided on this? And he actually admits the card is bad now and that new players wouldn't know how good the card is... nothing more needed to be said about how exactly this reflects on his team. wow
And some yeah whatever comment about arena deferring it to future. Great job there...
It's a 3 mana 2/3 for fuck's sake.
No one cares about them for good reason. Because they're fucking useless because they don't do anything on the turn they come down because Hearthstone has reached a state where if you don't do anything entering or leaving the battlefield, or you don't generate a ton of value, you might as well not be played at all. This is the game that Brode's team has created and the game my Warsong is targeted for.
Here's another 3 mana Charge giver that's seeing tons of play, apparently, because Charging Sylvanas is just so amazing.
.png/200px-Charge(646).png?version=e004a5f5ed8ecc42e59a3d23001cf8b6)
The way I see it, the best method of using my version would be Warsong Commander + Shield Bash + 3 Armor, which already provides multiple avenues of "interruption" it and takes up 4 mana so at most you're doing it with Sylvanas... and you can already do better with just a single Shield Bash and more armor.
But that's besides the point. I was trying to show that you can balance Patron and solve the Dreadsteed/self generation problem by putting a cap on how much Charge it can give. The reason Gadgetzan Auctioneer was degenerate was not because it cantripped cards, but because it did it without limit. It's a balance change I proposed way back. People didn't care if Auctioner drew 1 or 2, they cared when Auctioneer drew 5-6. If Rogues weren't permitted to overdraw like that (Battle Rage has a similar issue), the complaints would've died down eventually and we'd have one more interesting non-standard deck to play with instead of 1.
And soon, 0.
I am actually trying to add to the game. Brode is the one subtracting from it.
Doesn't have a body. Only charges one minion. Your version of Warsong and the existing Charge card aren't even remotely in the same league.
They're not in the same league because the current Charge is unplayable. Why would I want a Commander in the same league as that?
I tried
and
And I thought why would I play this over Charge? Hence, both.
By the way, it's not immediately obvious but I left out "other" on purpose so it can give itself Charge via Battlecry because DIGITAL ATHLETICS.
I keep saying this but my intent was to preserve Patron and promote new decks. I would not use a currently unplayable card as a yardstick to accomplish those two goals, just like how I wouldn't use Unbound Elemental as a template for new Overload cards.
I tried
and
And I thought why would I play this over Charge? Hence, both.
By the way, it's not immediately obvious but I left out "other" on purpose so it can give itself Charge via Battlecry because DIGITAL ATHLETICS.
I keep saying this but my intent was to preserve Patron and promote new decks. I would not use a currently unplayable card as a yardstick to accomplish those two goals, just like how I wouldn't use Unbound Elemental as a template for new Overload cards.
You are the one that made the comparison! Tried to act like your version wasn't too strong because Charge wasn't too strong.
That's a horrible way to approach card design. You don't just come up with two cards and then combine them whenever you're unsatisfied with the individual pieces.
This isn't a design manifesto. It's a single change to a single card to address a single problem. I mean I could be more granular with the effects. I could say, 2 attack or less, or 4 cost or less, or any number of caveats to limit its power without making it as useless as Charge, but Hearthstone also hates complex/verbose cards so what is there to do?
And I wanted to preserve the "soul" of Warsong Commander so I didn't change the Mana Cost or Stats. I know Brode would approve of that.
I think that's just a bad mechanic to mess around with in general. Especially when there's mobile clients and weird disconnects that can happen.
That's before we go into detail about how the timer is super weird with all the animations in general and Noz is buggy as hell already.
Okay, cool.
3 mana
1/3
Battlecry: Draw a Card
Deathrattle: Draw a Card
If it was just a battlecry it would be worse than Acolyte of Pain.
If it was just a deathrattle it would be worse than Acolyte of Pain.
So I combined them. It's a totally fair card now, right?
3 mana
1/3
Battlecry: Draw a Card
Deathrattle: Draw a Card
If it was just a battlecry it would be worse than Acolyte of Pain.
If it was just a deathrattle it would be worse than Acolyte of Pain.
So I combined them. It's a totally fair card now, right?
This is true, I'll give you that. It just rankles that they show me what's possible in a digital card game and then go "nope, not doing it, having some value creatures instead!"
I don't know why you're reaching for Acolyte when there are closer analogs:
Your card is pretty much better than either two, one of which was nerfed but playable, the other of which is also playable, and then you combined them so, no, not really. Not a fair card at all. Furthermore, I don't know why it would even need to exist. Have I failed to clarify that I'm proposing a solution to an existing problem that I felt was poorly addressed?
There is only one other analog for my Commader and that's Tundra Rhino, which is, surprise!, also borderline unplayable.
irfaanator
Banned
yea pretty much. i kind of understand the whole look at a card and know the gist, but damn its gonna be a while before anybody looks at warsong commander. Ultimately whatever they release next has to justify this huge of a nerf.
Oh boy, a hunter's dr. boom getting 4 to the face and killing an azure drake deciding yet another game.
Maybe in two years blizzard will get around to him.
Yeah, I get that. I remember some of the weird stuff that datamined from the beta like a minion that did damage if people moused over it, lol.
Maybe in two years blizzard will get around to him.
Yeah, I get that. I remember some of the weird stuff that datamined from the beta like a minion that did damage if people moused over it, lol.
I would have made warsong to has charge while you have a weapon equipped like deckhand is, decent followup to war axe for new players and basic decks, 2/3 body with charge and 3 mana isn't bad. I think that's a reasonable text, it's simple to understand and way better than removing the card from the card pool like they're doing right now. Actually pretty decent for arena too, charge is valuable there. It would still be a bad card but at least playable and smorc warrior could use it and like in the video he mentions it would be a different function that Kor'kron Elite has if that was their problem of just making the text charge.
I'll be upfront, Zealous. I actually built that card knowing that it would likely revive Giants Warrior, which is, in an environment with Secret Paladin, Thaurissan, Freeze Mage, Fast Druids, etc, not that big of a threat. The game has changed a lot since then and double Molten is no longer the bogeyman it once was.
Or it might be! With Frost Giant this Warrior would give Handlock a run for its money. Wouldn't that be interesting? I think it would. I like games that are interesting and dynamic.
Or it might be! With Frost Giant this Warrior would give Handlock a run for its money. Wouldn't that be interesting? I think it would. I like games that are interesting and dynamic.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Is this a troll?
That answer was a joke. Brode was always a clown but at least he felt honest. The shit he said about the new warsong make clear he's lying and just spewing PR shit. "3 mana 2/3 is teh spirit of the card", just wow, amaze design insight
Nope. He knows more about game design than the people complaining in this thread. Fact.
I'm very happy his vision for the game doesn't include OTK bullshit.
yeah the one reasonable argument is that warsong can prevent more interesting cards going forward but I want to believe in a world where it's possible to do this without killing a deck and the card at the same time.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Better remove the Druid class from the game then.
Better remove the Rogue class as well while you're at it.
Shamans too. If all those Overload bursty cards ever become viable again they'll become too OTK for Hearthstone players. And Bloodlust, AlAkir, Doomhammer. Remove all of that!
All Paladin all the time.
Shamans too. If all those Overload bursty cards ever become viable again they'll become too OTK for Hearthstone players. And Bloodlust, AlAkir, Doomhammer. Remove all of that!
All Paladin all the time.
Oh wait...
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Call me when Druid can OTK from hand with no minions on the board and the opponent at 30+ health, and it becomes so consistent it wins countless tournaments.
I get people having a different opinion on how to handle the nerf (I expected it to change to 'minions with 3 or less attack HAVE charge', though now I understand how the card itself hampers future design), but let's be real - patron was a problem. If someone wants to discuss how to change WC (as many of you have), that's cool. Interested in keeping OTKs in the game? Not interested in your vision for the game at all.
Secret Paladin and Thaurissan are busted, though. Mysterious Challenger should just not exist as a concept and Thaurissan should be a battlecry. I don't support hypothetical OP cards just because there are other bonkers as hell cards in the game currently.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
FoN + Savage Roar is far more reliable then an OTK, though. OTKs are very annoying yes, but most of the time they have very complicated conditions, Patron was one of the sole exceptions and you still needed the perfect hand + Emperor. They have become easier after Thaurissan was put into the game yes but FoN + Savage Roar + Innervate + Savage Roar is still death most of the time for an empty board. Normal FoN + SR usually does the trick anyway since that is Druid's entire gameplan.
Thaurissan usually dies the turn he is played, save for certain matchups, although if they did nerf him the battlecry method would be best.
"Countless".
Lmao.
The deck is 5 months old.
The best decks of Hearthstone World Championships 2014 were, in fact, Ramp Druid and Handlock, decks that have existed even before the Championships were established and dominant then as well.
Lmao.
The deck is 5 months old.
The best decks of Hearthstone World Championships 2014 were, in fact, Ramp Druid and Handlock, decks that have existed even before the Championships were established and dominant then as well.
Well part of that is because he has such a huge target on his head. People would be less desperate to remove him if his text was a battlecry. And it's not like the card would see any less play if it was a battlecry. That's usually a pretty good indication to me that a card needs a nerf. You could make a significant change to a card and it wouldn't even change which decks it is put in or how often it is played.
He starved so much his soul was shed.
toddhunter
Member
I like the change. With Patron destroyed aggro will be much stronger. This might force people to actually think about their decks a little.
Substituting a card in to help you survive? It is going to be a massive shift for 99% of players, but it might just make the game better.
Also reincarnate shaman and other shaman decks may not get so fucking destroyed.
Substituting a card in to help you survive? It is going to be a massive shift for 99% of players, but it might just make the game better.
Also reincarnate shaman and other shaman decks may not get so fucking destroyed.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Got a feeling if they nerfed Emperor they would hamstring him like Nat Pagle instead of doing the battlecry thing.
toddhunter
Member
I agree. Battlecry isn't really a nerf at all because the single activation is all you need. If you get more, chances are shit was getting silly anyway.
Nerf to not allow things to cost zero is the safest nerf. I'd like to see that first, then pagled.
or more people will go aggro.
irfaanator
Banned
lost to a hunter who pulled armored warhorse from call pet and won the joust. well played
So it's fine to be do 20+ damage with 4 cards in hand but it's not fine to do 30+ damage with at least as many cards?
It's a very fine line there between so broken that it requires destruction of a card/deck and perfectly fine (allowed to stay in the game for years).
Professor Lich
Member
It's ok guys, Warriors will just get "Charge into Battle," that will summon three 0/1 minions with charge for four mana.
And you would still just use Raid Leader over Warsong Commander.
Professor Lich
Member
But you need to keep the awesome identity of having a 2/3 over a 2/2.
Super Nothing
Member
Or Dire Doggie.
I feel the Patron nerf came far less from the one turn kill and more how it impacted the other player.
1.) Patron punished hurting the enemy due to battle rage.
2.) Patron punished playing minions with two or less damage, and could generate huge card draw off of doing so.
3.) Patron punished playing a large number of minions due to how Frothing Berserker works.
4.) It was hard to play something that was a great solution to both the Grim Patrons and the Frothing Berserkers instead of dealing with one while potentially buffing the other.
5.) It enabled one turn kills against very high health and armor totals instead of just specifically 30 health or 22 health.
6.) The Patron wombo combo often happened pretty early in the game.
7.) The card limited what they could feasibly print in the future as further buffs to the deck would make it seem increasingly unbearable to large parts of their player base.
If we boils this down, I see the driving factors as:
1.) The Patron player was not engaging in minion combat was fine, because they were opting to do so, similar to how Freeze Mage has been left alone for quite some time. However, it was notably hampering minion play *for the other player* as well, which is where I feel it upset Blizzard the most. It's similar to why Unleash the Hounds + Buzzard was nerfed.
2.) It was hard to play around without picking specific deck archetypes that were often expensive, and thus not nearly as accessible to their more casual audience who would be most upset. You can't tell the vast, vast majority of players to pull out Handlock.
A Malygos Shaman OTK deck or a Velen/Aucheni OTK deck on the other hand would not have many of these properties.
1.) Patron punished hurting the enemy due to battle rage.
2.) Patron punished playing minions with two or less damage, and could generate huge card draw off of doing so.
3.) Patron punished playing a large number of minions due to how Frothing Berserker works.
4.) It was hard to play something that was a great solution to both the Grim Patrons and the Frothing Berserkers instead of dealing with one while potentially buffing the other.
5.) It enabled one turn kills against very high health and armor totals instead of just specifically 30 health or 22 health.
6.) The Patron wombo combo often happened pretty early in the game.
7.) The card limited what they could feasibly print in the future as further buffs to the deck would make it seem increasingly unbearable to large parts of their player base.
If we boils this down, I see the driving factors as:
1.) The Patron player was not engaging in minion combat was fine, because they were opting to do so, similar to how Freeze Mage has been left alone for quite some time. However, it was notably hampering minion play *for the other player* as well, which is where I feel it upset Blizzard the most. It's similar to why Unleash the Hounds + Buzzard was nerfed.
2.) It was hard to play around without picking specific deck archetypes that were often expensive, and thus not nearly as accessible to their more casual audience who would be most upset. You can't tell the vast, vast majority of players to pull out Handlock.
A Malygos Shaman OTK deck or a Velen/Aucheni OTK deck on the other hand would not have many of these properties.
- Status