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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel

V

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Innervate is fine. Yes you can pull off some crazy shit sometimes, but a lot of classes can do that if you have the right hand/draw.

What sucks is when shit becomes non interactive. Quest rogue sucked cause they did everything on their turn. Freeze mage and ice block have similar issues as it makes it non interactive for the player especially since Hearthstone doesn't allow you to do actions on another player's turn.
 
W

wiibomb

Member
Ben Brode just confirmed that they will be doing class 2 legendaries again, 1 normal and 1 hero card.

also, that they are seeing Ice Block as a potential card for HoF because it can limit how the class behaves for the future

and they don't plan to do HoF rotations outside of new standard year releases
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
wiibomb said:
Ben Brode just confirmed that they will be doing class 2 legendaries again, 1 normal and 1 hero card.

also, that they are seeing Ice Block as a potential card for HoF because it can limit how the class behaves for the future

and they don't plan to do HoF rotations outside of new standard year releases
Click to expand...

Ice block rotating seems okay.

I hope they don't mess with auctioneer though. The card is still a lot of fun to play. Granted, I don't want it to be rogue's only combo/draw engine. I think there is room to make rogue flourish in other ways without removing auctioneer.
 
M

Miletius

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
Ice block rotating seems okay.

I hope they don't mess with auctioneer though. The card is still a lot of fun to play. Granted, I don't want it to be rogue's only combo/draw engine. I think there is room to make rogue flourish in other ways without removing auctioneer.
Click to expand...

I'm not great with these kind of prognostication track records, but I think they will 100 percent get rid of Auctioneer next rotation. I love the card and the archetypes it enables, but with Jade Druid now relying on auctioneer as well as miracle, I think they don't have much of a choice.

I just hope that we get some sort of really great replacement in rogue.
 
F

fertygo

Member
Miletius said:
I'm not great with these kind of prognostication track records, but I think they will 100 percent get rid of Auctioneer next rotation. I love the card and the archetypes it enables, but with Jade Druid now relying on auctioneer as well as miracle, I think they don't have much of a choice.

I just hope that we get some sort of really great replacement in rogue.
Click to expand...
Jade Druid is gone at next rotation tho
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Miletius said:
I'm not great with these kind of prognostication track records, but I think they will 100 percent get rid of Auctioneer next rotation. I love the card and the archetypes it enables, but with Jade Druid now relying on auctioneer as well as miracle, I think they don't have much of a choice.

I just hope that we get some sort of really great replacement in rogue.
Click to expand...

Jade druid is being rotated next year. And so what if 2 out of 9 classes use the card? 2 out of 9.

Rogue doesn't need a replacement. It needs options, especially after blade flurry was nerfed and now quest rogue too.
 
M

Miletius

Member
I think the overall point is though, that as long as auctioneer is on the table, rogue and druid have the potential to abuse it using cheap spells and mana gain mechanics. While it enables a lot of really fun (IMO, the best in the game) mechanics, I think Blizzard thinks of auctioneer as a reason why rogues have a limited design space -- giving rogue (and druid, to an extent) powerful spells is a no go as long as they have a very consistent way to get to it via Gadgetzan.

Also, tongue in cheekily, Blizzard wants people to use sprint again.

And yeah, I also agree that rogue needs options. I know there was a lot of hate for QR, but it was basically the 3rd really viable archetype that rogue has had the entire game:

1) Miracle
2) Oil
3) Quest

Edit: by get rid of, I mean they are gonna move him into Hall of Fame, just to clarify.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
About to play in a tournament (Tavern Hero Qualifier). Wish me luck, guys.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Miletius said:
I think the overall point is though, that as long as auctioneer is on the table, rogue and druid have the potential to abuse it using cheap spells and mana gain mechanics. While it enables a lot of really fun (IMO, the best in the game) mechanics, I think Blizzard thinks of auctioneer as a reason why rogues have a limited design space -- giving rogue (and druid, to an extent) powerful spells is a no go as long as they have a very consistent way to get to it via Gadgetzan.

Also, tongue in cheekily, Blizzard wants people to use sprint again.

And yeah, I also agree that rogue needs options. I know there was a lot of hate for QR, but it was basically the 3rd really viable archetype that rogue has had the entire game:

1) Miracle
2) Oil
3) Quest
Click to expand...

Auctioneer does not stop them from getting powerful spells. Otherwise hallucination would never have been printed, or even shadowstrike. It's not like n'zoth where the card gets better the more deathrattles you run. Auctioneer will always have a natural cap on how many spells you want to run. I can't even imagine a card that is really broken with auctioneer, that wouldn't be broken on it's own and avoided anyway.

Another perspective is that their design choices have wedged them more into auctioneer than ever. Rogue only has good single target removal. It doesn't have taunts, healing, or AOE. They said they don't intend to either.

Lastly, it's not only counterfeit coin that is rotating. But also arcane giants. Miracle rogue every year has been a very different deck from previous years. Last year we had only aggressive miracle rogues due to conceal/QA/pirates/tomb pillager. I guess maly rogue too if you counter that due to running auctioneer, which was also a very different deck than other miracle rogues.

Before that it was heavy burst miracle rogue and oil rogue. This year is of course largely arcane giants, with some decks running some burst options. Next year for all we know auctioneer won't even make the cut because of counterfeit coin rotating. If it is used, it'll be very different from this seasons arcane giants type decks. It's always going to be different.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
inky said:
And? Even if that were quantifiably true (which I'm still not convinced it is) it has never, by itself or in conjunction with certain cards, made Druid the most powerful class or deck every expansion (you could say barely any expansion, and hardly down to the card itself), despite spurious claims to the contrary. As a class staple card, it has never had an effect greater to that of other such cards on ladder or arena, and that "most powerful card by far" label has never manifested itself to unbalanced winrate percentages to the degree other cards and deck archetypes have since the game was launched.

At most, it makes certain Innervate plays very good at certain times, with the obvious, widely ignored downside that it can also be a dead card in plenty of other times, and that by design, using it conveys a certain risk playing into the class inherent weaknesses.

There's probably an argument to be made that it shouldn't allow you to go over 10 mana, but even then I'm not too bothered by that.
Click to expand...
Every druid deck ever includes innervate as such whenever druid has a top tier deck innervate specifically in conjunction with certain cards makes it so. I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all metas but combo druid, token druid (not current aggro) and jade druid all could claim spots at the top at their time and innervate is an integral card for those strategies, not sure about combo druid as I took a break at the time.

innervate has downsides like any card, they don't even come close to the upsides.
Alternatively I'd be fine with a nerf to 1 mana add 3 mana as that specifically slows down combo aspects.

Counterfeit coin is the acceptable power level for a card like this, innervate is too close to the black lotussun.
 
M

Miletius

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
Auctioneer does not stop them from getting powerful spells. Otherwise hallucination would never have been printed, or even shadowstrike. It's not like n'zoth where the card gets better the more deathrattles you run. Auctioneer will always have a natural cap on how many spells you want to run. I can't even imagine a card that is really broken with auctioneer, that wouldn't be broken on it's own and avoided anyway.

Another perspective is that their design choices have wedged them more into auctioneer than ever. Rogue only has good single target removal. It doesn't have taunts, healing, or AOE. They said they don't intend to either.

Lastly, it's not only counterfeit coin that is rotating. But also arcane giants. Miracle rogue every year has been a very different deck from previous years. Last year we had only aggressive miracle rogues due to conceal/QA/pirates/tomb pillager. I guess maly rogue too if you counter that due to running auctioneer, which was also a very different deck than other miracle rogues.

Before that it was heavy burst miracle rogue and oil rogue. This year is of course largely arcane giants, with some decks running some burst options. Next year for all we know auctioneer won't even make the cut because of counterfeit coin rotating. If it is used, it'll be very different from this seasons arcane giants type decks. It's always going to be different.
Click to expand...

What do all of those decks have in common though? Auctioneer is used in all of those decks as a lynch pin to enable game winning combinations. Why? Because Blizzard hasn't given rogues options that allow them to thrive without them.

If your argument is that Blizzard can get rid of Counterfeit Coin and will thusly leave auctioneer untouched, then that's fine. I also suspect they might just retire auctioneer to wild though and try to get a different game plan going in rogue. QR was an attempt to get something new going with rogue (and it worked). That's their game plan going forward I think.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Miletius said:
What do all of those decks have in common though? Auctioneer is used in all of those decks as a lynch pin to enable game winning combinations. Why? Because Blizzard hasn't given rogues options that allow them to thrive without them.

If your argument is that Blizzard can get rid of Counterfeit Coin and will thusly leave auctioneer untouched, then that's fine. I also suspect they might just retire auctioneer to wild though and try to get a different game plan going in rogue. QR was an attempt to get something new going with rogue (and it worked). That's their game plan going forward I think.
Click to expand...

And mage decks all have frostbolt in common. So what?

Lets be honest. Most of the reason people want to see auctioneer rotated is because they don't like to lose to it (and now jade druid is the popular excuse?). Not because it limits design (it doesn't) or it's too common. There are a ton of cards that are commonly used throughout each class. Auctioneer is used in a single archetype. Remove that and the archetype is largely gone. They might give rogue another tool, but then what. We have 1 archetype for rogue again, instead of having 2 or potentially even more.

My argument is not predicting if auctioneer will be used or not. As I pointed out, it's that every year miracle rogue has been different. Auctioneer is not even stale 3 years into the game. It's not only a fun card. It's a high skill card. It's a card that changes the way you approach the game. It's not just some tempo card you play and hope your opponent doesn't have removal. You plan, somewhat meticulously, every turn with it while it's in your deck. And your opponent plays their gameplan differently too.
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Lost my first match. 1-3. T_T

First game I had a disgusting curve with Mid-range Paladin. Last game was against Token Druid and the dude went Flappy Bird -> Windfury -> Stealth. Feelsbadman.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
The next rotation will take out Old Gods, One Knight in Karazhan and Mean Streets of Gadgetan. This is early 2018 by the way.
 
Y

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Brode said he's hoping for sometime this summer for Naxx to be available. That's disappointing, i was hoping it was imminent.
 
E

Eddie Bax

Member
Ugh, I don't know how many times I can stand to lose to random cards in one night.

From the mage that babbling booked his way to a frost nova when I had massive board and hand advantage then top dicked the pyroblast he needed next turn for exact lethal, to the priest the next game who played 18 random/generated cards in a single game, to the next mage who highrolled on every random card. Massive sodium overload.
 
D

DyslexicAlucard

Member
Eddie Bax said:
Ugh, I don't know how many times I can stand to lose to random cards in one night.

From the mage that babbling booked his way to a frost nova when I had massive board and hand advantage then top dicked the pyroblast he needed next turn for exact lethal, to the priest the next game who played 18 random/generated cards in a single game, to the next mage who highrolled on every random card. Massive sodium overload.
Click to expand...

If it helps at all, I know that some people intentionally use a top-decked card even if they had you all along, just to instil maximum salt. Kripp does it all the time.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Well fuck this game:

OggBEKx.jpg
Click to expand...
 
W

wiibomb

Member
Yaboosh said:
Brode said he's hoping for sometime this summer for Naxx to be available. That's disappointing, i was hoping it was imminent.
Click to expand...

I feel now that blizzard is such a big and successful company, it has gained some of the ugly sides of those big companies, like jammed in bureocracy, I think ben and the team want all these things available now, but the upper administration has a lot more steps to do before doing so.

I was totally expecting it to be before august, but now we have to wait. Weird because the wording of the news said weeks, not months, I thought they had this well planned.
 
M

Miletius

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
And mage decks all have frostbolt in common. So what?

Lets be honest. Most of the reason people want to see auctioneer rotated is because they don't like to lose to it (and now jade druid is the popular excuse?). Not because it limits design (it doesn't) or it's too common. There are a ton of cards that are commonly used throughout each class. Auctioneer is used in a single archetype. Remove that and the archetype is largely gone. They might give rogue another tool, but then what. We have 1 archetype for rogue again, instead of having 2 or potentially even more.

My argument is not predicting if auctioneer will be used or not. As I pointed out, it's that every year miracle rogue has been different. Auctioneer is not even stale 3 years into the game. It's not only a fun card. It's a high skill card. It's a card that changes the way you approach the game. It's not just some tempo card you play and hope your opponent doesn't have removal. You plan, somewhat meticulously, every turn with it while it's in your deck. And your opponent plays their gameplan differently too.
Click to expand...

Ok, I mean, let's be real here for a second. Equating Auctioneer and Frostbolt is a pretty big... well, not sure what to call it -- chasm, maybe? It's true hat both are staple cards; one in mage and one in rogue. One, however, enables an archetype single handedly. The other does 3 damage and freezes a target for 2 mana. If frostbolt suddenly disappeared the only thing that might happen is that mages might finally use flame surge for a bit. There's a reason why whenever Ben Brode gets talking about what kind of cards he might like to see removed from standard he talks about cards like Auctioneer, Ice Block and Alextrasa. We are talking about one of the most influential cards in the game here.

Regardless, I'm not actually arguing against the merits of Auctioneer and by extension Miracle Rogue here. I'm just pointing out that, GA has been on their radar for a while now and if I were a betting man I'd bet that it gets retired at the end this rotation. It has nothing to do with skill or if Miracle is a great deck with a high skill cap (for the record, I agree with both of those claims). It is my read that Blizzard just believes that it's time for a change.

One theory that I could see Blizzard buying that the relative ubiquitousness of Miracle Rogue stifles experimentation. For example, rogue still has a pretty decent jade package going on, but the deck never really caught on and was never really refined as a result. Was jade rogue a t1 deck? Probably not. But I could totally see Ben Brode and co reasoning that the deck never really had a chance.
 
B

BananasWithGuns

Member
So I was reading through the AMA. I guess it's a safe bet to assume Stonetusk is gone in the next rotation? It seems to keep coming up so I can't imagine them leaving it in Standard next year.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
BananasWithGuns said:
So I was reading through the AMA. I guess it's a safe bet to assume Stonetusk is gone in the next rotation? It seems to keep coming up so I can't imagine them leaving it in Standard next year.
Click to expand...
We are slowly getting to the point where unconditional Charge is getting phased out from the game.
 
B

BananasWithGuns

Member
Dahbomb said:
We are slowly getting to the point where unconditional Charge is getting phased out from the game.
Click to expand...

True enough, although there is that new Paladin one in KFT. Granted it's pretty modest as far as charge minions go so it's easy to see the direction they're going with charge. I'll give them a mulligan on Patches.
 
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