-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
SonicXtreme
Member
its john hammond's deck of choice
snaps quest rogue too since i added knife juggs
https://hsreplay.net/replay/AKGPnaqxFm6XK5QiLeomDT
21-12 atm i can't believe i toyed around without knife juggs and UTH, they are so key
I don't think miracle list people play is very strong actually, it's more like a low power tempo deck than some bursty combo deck, it feels very fair and mediocre to be honest. Putting stuff on board in the open and hoping them to connect is just too fair to be good with how relatively slow it is compared with something like pw doing the same in three turns. Firebat was saying yesterday the deck is just bad, he was playing quest with his own list, he said it's better because he doesn't want to interact with opponent lol. He had good winrate with it but that's Firebat. I don't think that deck will stick around now that tempo storm has officially announced to the world that pw is best deck.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
edit: Well I was right about one thing at least for tempostorm's list, miracle rogue is higher than quest. But they're both tier 1.
It goes
Pirate warrior
miracle rogue
taunt warrior
quest rogue
I frankly think quest rogue drops over time unless it's refined further. I will be surprised if VS reports quest rogue top tier (at least across all ranks), because there reports are more based on the reported data as far as I can tell. A deck that reports 48% is usually tier 3.
There are several burst miracle lists. But I wouldn't call arcane giants list low power tempo. A lot of decks cannot deal with 0 mana 8/8s as well as sherazin coming back basically being a 0 mana 5/3 several times.
It goes
Pirate warrior
miracle rogue
taunt warrior
quest rogue
I frankly think quest rogue drops over time unless it's refined further. I will be surprised if VS reports quest rogue top tier (at least across all ranks), because there reports are more based on the reported data as far as I can tell. A deck that reports 48% is usually tier 3.
There are several burst miracle lists. But I wouldn't call arcane giants list low power tempo. A lot of decks cannot deal with 0 mana 8/8s as well as sherazin coming back basically being a 0 mana 5/3 several times.
It's slow at ending the game and is more like a grinder deck with sherazin, you can certainly out value some opponents but it's not exactly hard to deal with. I was watching dog play the other day, decks like the new midrange paladin that on paper you should be able to beat with ease, were actually dealing with everything rogue can do. It looked very underwhelming.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If midrange paladin becomes very popular you can tech against them. Violet teacher is a card that paladin has a very difficult time dealing with.
I've beaten paladin. I think rogue is still favored. You can't just watch a couple games and really know which deck is favored. It might be closer to 50/50 than a burst list is but even a burst list can have difficulty with a strong curve with many taunts on the tail end.
TS tier list looks more like a popularity tier list than one based on actual power level or match ups.
Will wait for VS's list.
Like yeah I expect PW and Taunt Warrior to be on top but I don't see Rogue sticking on top with stuff like Midrange Hunter, Egg Druid and even Zoolock on the prowl.
Will wait for VS's list.
Like yeah I expect PW and Taunt Warrior to be on top but I don't see Rogue sticking on top with stuff like Midrange Hunter, Egg Druid and even Zoolock on the prowl.
Their elemental shaman list seems bad... is that what people are running?
Glass Shark
Banned
.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
What is with that Aggro Mage list tempostorm has in tier 2? I've never seen or heard of it before, but it looks so bad. They even acknowledge that it's only good for countering rogue, but there's so many way better ways to counter rogue that doesn't just have you playing a terrible deck against literally everything else.
And I don't play much priest so I don't know, but there's no way Dragon Priest is that good, is there? I know of the infinite DrakOP, but where does that get you? DrakOP just doesn't make quite enough sense to solely base a deck around.
I guess DrakOP and Dragonfire Potion is good vs Quest Rogue.
There's a lot of things that feel completely off to me, and it mostly seems to revolve around them really overrating rogues, and that cascading down to other decks. Even their underrating of Jade Druid come from their worries about the Rogue matchup.
I guess for now, rogue is maybe popular enough to shape the meta on popularity alone?
And I don't play much priest so I don't know, but there's no way Dragon Priest is that good, is there? I know of the infinite DrakOP, but where does that get you? DrakOP just doesn't make quite enough sense to solely base a deck around.
I guess DrakOP and Dragonfire Potion is good vs Quest Rogue.
There's a lot of things that feel completely off to me, and it mostly seems to revolve around them really overrating rogues, and that cascading down to other decks. Even their underrating of Jade Druid come from their worries about the Rogue matchup.
I guess for now, rogue is maybe popular enough to shape the meta on popularity alone?
Glass Shark
Banned
.
Tempostorm's reports have always been based on statistics only taken from Tempostorm players. There's also some opinions in the reports based on how they *feel* matchups play out.
Glass Shark
Banned
.
There was this whole drama over TS vs VS over at Reddit where the Redditors called out TS on their lack of stats for their tier list compared to VS.
Reynad took to YT to respond, talked crap about Reddit like he usually does and then made shots at VS. He claimed that data is imperfect especially when it comes to defining archetypes online through deck trackers (a real issue) and that TS themselves uses data but it's from their own players. He said last time that they had a new software upcoming that would fix these issues but didn't want to release it until it was right.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think it's flawed to have a bunch of really good players pool together resources and thoughts and come up with a tier list. But it seems to have always come at the price of having certain overrated decks that one of them took a liking to. This report seems to have even more of that than usual.
Drop down both Rogues, Dragon Priest, Aggro Mage, and Purify Priest and it'd be a pretty good top two tiers in my opinion, at least before things start to really settle down and contract. The only tier 2 decks I might consider adding are Elemental Shaman and Murloc Shaman, but I don't hate leaving them out for now.
Weird they forgot about Murloc Shaman altogether.
Drop down both Rogues, Dragon Priest, Aggro Mage, and Purify Priest and it'd be a pretty good top two tiers in my opinion, at least before things start to really settle down and contract. The only tier 2 decks I might consider adding are Elemental Shaman and Murloc Shaman, but I don't hate leaving them out for now.
Weird they forgot about Murloc Shaman altogether.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Paladin feels very unfavoured against miracle rogue. There's 5 ways total that deal with high power minions and tempo plays are very good against it.
Don't put too much thought into the exact deck lists, TS likes to highlight weird or interesting deck lists rather than the usual ones. Reynad even said so himself when people called him out on the deck lists.
It is definitely weird that Shaman is that low. Has been seeing reasonable competitive and ladder play.
It is definitely weird that Shaman is that low. Has been seeing reasonable competitive and ladder play.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Well, I guess if they mean Aggro mage to include good secret based decklists, then the tier 2 spot is fine. But they'd be really stretching the aggro mage category if they think that thing fits in the same category as secret mage.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Finally, finally... last boss was a quest rogue. He had a slow start. I sapped his igneous and went all in playing an ethereal peddler and let the smorc guide me. I took him down with hallucination off the top getting me that 1 damage I needed to win the game.
Rank 1004... lol worst rank I ever got entering legend.
Only a meager 60% winrate. At first though damn... going from rank 3->rank 1 I was on like a 70-80% winrate at least I think. Once you hit competent players that winrate goes down.
I am surprised secret mage is on the list at all. Is that even really a thing? I think I ran into maybe 1 or 2 secret mage lists ever. But burn/aggro mage is legit. It's kinda a relief that there are viable decks that can out heal the burn because of ice lance having rotated.
Rank 1004... lol worst rank I ever got entering legend.
Only a meager 60% winrate. At first though damn... going from rank 3->rank 1 I was on like a 70-80% winrate at least I think. Once you hit competent players that winrate goes down.
I am surprised secret mage is on the list at all. Is that even really a thing? I think I ran into maybe 1 or 2 secret mage lists ever. But burn/aggro mage is legit. It's kinda a relief that there are viable decks that can out heal the burn because of ice lance having rotated.
You can try Living Spore instead. Soul of the Forest is a bit slow but Living Spore can win games because it's more aggressive. +3 attack, deathrattle, divine shield, windfury, +1/+1 are all good options to close out game faster.
It's essentially high roll RNG vs consistent result.
I strongly agree with this. I have been struggling to try and make the list work and just can't find a sweet spot. This is the weakest the deck has been in sometime IMO.
Also fits more with the aggressive theme of the deck, rather than a passive option.
I haven't unpacked one of those yet surprisingly, will just hold off since I'm running low on dust.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This is the first time I hit legend in an expansion before even tier lists came out. I mean, TS published a few hours ago but I was already running miracle rogue anyway, close enough!
Also, I did it with arcane giants list in case people are wondering.
This was the list I went with from rank 3-1
http://i.imgur.com/Ykx9o4v.png
This was list for final push
http://i.imgur.com/KyI9HR5.png
edit:
In retrospect, I do think 1 cold blood is probably a good thing to include. I just wanted to run double hallucination. I also wanted to run double mimic pod but chose to go for quicker cards instead.
Also, I did it with arcane giants list in case people are wondering.
This was the list I went with from rank 3-1
http://i.imgur.com/Ykx9o4v.png
This was list for final push
http://i.imgur.com/KyI9HR5.png
edit:
In retrospect, I do think 1 cold blood is probably a good thing to include. I just wanted to run double hallucination. I also wanted to run double mimic pod but chose to go for quicker cards instead.
LucidMomentum
Member
Kripp is the dark knight of Hearthstone.
He's made a career out of a mode oft-ignored by the devs and his predictions are usually pretty accurate.
Blizzard made Mage's insane spells into epics just so they wouldn't fuck with arena balance. Not good enough. Blizzard can never print good spells for mage anymore. Even though that's basically their class identity. So sayeth the Kripp.
You know what Kripp thinks Blizz should have done instead? Make it a Druid spell! That's right, let's give one of the best removal spells in the game to freaking Druid. The class that is only kept in check by their lack of removal. Because that wouldn't break the game he thinks.
LucidMomentum
Member
That's not what Kripp said.
It's nice that the better spells are Epics, but when Discover / Add A Random Spell To Your Hand effects come into play, they could be commons for all the game cares.
There doesn't seem to be a weight to what will show up in regards to the card's "rarity", so you get game losing events like Glyph into a second Glyph at 0 cost into a 4 mana Meteor that essentially provided board clear where there was none and didn't cost any additional mana due to the stars aligning.
That match where it happened was rather egregious because the guy's Arena deck was basically a Mage that picked all of the "Discover" and "Add to your hand" Mage minions and spells that he could.
Hell there was a turn where the guy played Babbling Book which gave him Cabalist's Tome which gave him exactly the answers he needed for the next three turns.
Kripp lost due to fatigue because the random spells kept being ones much better than the original card used to discover or create them were, as well as giving the person an additional 10 or so cards to their deck.
In standard you can play around that to an extent but in arena you can get some seriously busted decks as a result of these new mechanics and Mages have just gotten better and better cards for Arena overall.
I think instead of it being 100% random what comes up off a Discover or Add To Your Hand, Blizzard may want to add a bit of weight to higher rarity cards to help prevent them being insanely good.
Also add into the above and Kripp's discussion points the fact that there is no limit to how many multiples you can have in a deck in Arena.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
So the class that is meant to be strong in spells should not get any powerful spells. Best kripp line ever?
LucidMomentum
Member
It's like you both are choosing to ignore Arena balance because Kripp's an Arena player and while his statement doesn't make sense for Standard balance, it does for Arena balance.
But Blizzard rarely balances Arena.
Exactly. There's a reason Mage is the go-to for Arena right now, and has been since Firelands Portal came out.
Same with Warlock, they have great hero power and card draw / discover abilities for Arena.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Nope. Mage arena is supposed to be strong in spells too. Perhaps stronger than standard. It's basically the class identity. Taking the strong spells out of mage would be dumb. I think even taking the strong spells out of commons or rares for mage isn't that good for the class in a way, but having them epics is the best they can do for arena balance.
I watched both games now and it's just typical kripp salt. First meteor in the second game wasn't even that good. It was a fireball. And weapon hate is probably at an all time high in arena just because there are 2 added in the last 2 expansions. Why is he even surprised. He is just so easily triggered. I've seen him triggered live by the dumbest shit. I think it might be in part playing to his audience, but sometimes I know it's not.
Grats! Start stacking up those golden cards (and then disenchanting them to craft the OP legendary of the week)!
I actually crafted Patches today for this deck 😂😂😂😂😐😂😂😂
I'm really close to being able to craft a quest rogue or quest warrior, but I only have enough dust to go in one direction.
I disenchanted all my old non-standard cards to get enough dust.
I'm going to be forced to pre-order the next expansion to be able to participate.
BananasWithGuns
Member
5 games played today, 4 against Hunter.
I'm honestly surprised it took this long for people to figure out that Hunter got the most broken cards in the set.
I'm honestly surprised it took this long for people to figure out that Hunter got the most broken cards in the set.
Primordial Glyph and Meteor are both epics. Given the tools that Blizzard currently has to balance for the arena, that's significant. Blizzard isn't ignoring arena balance.
Now, if Kripp wants to argue that Blizzard should be more sophisticated in the ways that it balances the arena, I would be all aboard that train. But that's not the direction he took the argument. The direction he took the argument is that mage shouldn't get strong spells anymore. And then he actually was dumb enough to suggest that Meteor should have been a Druid card instead. Which I believe would create an even worse situation.
Yes, Tempo Storm's list is an opinion piece. They don't backup their claims with any data like the Vicious Syndicate list, at best we got their word that they use their player's game data.
Which are exactly the broken hunter cards from this set? I feel like most of the cards are the ones that we always saw but that now are better since lots of counters for hunter rotated out
I can't even imagine the world where druid has access to a card like Meteor. I mean regular Ramp druid is almost a good enough deck with Swipe and Wrath being almost their only "removals". If they had Meteor, the class would be insane, I think. I want to believe that Kripp realizes that but is doing this for the Youtube hits. I'm certain that the design team realizes it. Cause they didn't give Druid that kind of spell.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Quest rogue is bullshit, mostly because I can't do anything to stop it. If he has the right cards then I'm screwed.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Crackling razormaw is an insane card full stop. Jeweled Macaw is ok - better than firey bat in the midrange list, certainly. Don't forget about Rat Pack and Alley cat, which are still great cards.
Midrange Hunter is a good deck again mostly because Reno is gone, and Golokka Crawler makes the aggro matchups much more manageable if not favored, and it's still a 2/3 beast in your other games.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Macaw and Razormaw are both well above the power curve. They'll be in every single Hunter deck for the next 2 years.
Yep. I wonder if in two years people will be as happy to see those go as they are with Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm only 3-0 with this deck in casual
but I'm posting the deck because of how well it performed in each of those 3 games.
I was told this deck would lose to just about any deck. Then I beat a quest rogue, midrange hunter, and freeze mage.
not ready to tank legendary rank for this experiment
I was told this deck would lose to just about any deck. Then I beat a quest rogue, midrange hunter, and freeze mage.