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Hell at Tesla
- Thread starter sphagnum
- Start date
You realize a Union would still allow for all of this right?
The gaming industry is one of the industries that's in dire need of unions across the board.
What union and local were you a part of when you were working in a factory as a laborer? What did that factory produce? What was your job title and what part of the production process were you a part of?
Thanks but I will pass, Im very happy the way things are for me and the people that work with me.
Widdle Puppy
Banned
His post reads like someone who has a lot of money to fall back on if they decide to quit their job one day.
The industry is far far larger than you and those who work with you and there are mountains of stories about mistreatment, lack of job security, insane crunch time and so on. Just because you're in a situation where a union isn't needed doesn't mean they wouldn't be hugely beneficial to countless others working in the same industry without that kind of environment or social safety net that allows them to search for the places that don't push their employees to do all kinds of extra or unsafe things.
Psychoward
Banned
Basically
"Well yeah I got fired but I know my self worth so it doesn't matter
""Well I had an omnipotent boss who was also generous and never abused their position or shorted their employees so clearly unions are evil"
I was not a member of the union, It was a mobil home factory and I worked as an unlicensed electrician. The rest of the facotry was union, I dont remember the exact group. They fell under the Forest Workers of BC. The place eventually failed and I went back to school. I then spent several years doing factory automation as an SE again non union. I worked mainly automotive in Japan, other smaller stuff as well. I then switched to gaming. Like I said the union environment does not suit me.
I read recently that Tesla only has cash on hand for 3 more months of operations. Let me see if I can find it.
Edit: Nevermind, was 3 quarters and it came from a hedge fund manager.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...-cash-for-next-3-quarters-einhorn-says-2017-8
Edit: Nevermind, was 3 quarters and it came from a hedge fund manager.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...-cash-for-next-3-quarters-einhorn-says-2017-8
Psychoward
Banned
Fwiw I had a boss that was shorting people with their checks and the only way we got our actual share was by calling the union we used to be a part of. So
Basically
"Well yeah I got fired but I know my self worth so it doesn't matter
"Well I had an omnipotent boss who was also generous and never abused their position or shorted their employees so clearly unions are evil"
Dude, I grew poor as dirt and did my fair share of shit jobs for abusive pricks. Been around unions just was not a member myself. I have no problem if its for you, its just not for me.
Widdle Puppy
Banned
Honestly the discussion of unions makes me tired. Unfortunately they, the capital owning elite, won. Unions are a shell of what they once were and it is a damn shame but they aren't coming back. It's sad and difficult arguing against decades of propoganda pushed out by them.
Never been a member of a union but the evidence is pretty clear that unions are needed in many cases. This appears to be one of them.
That injury rate is too damn high. I'm surprised Tesla is OK with the insurance fallout from this. They've got to be paying much more than they would if they just implemented better safety procedures.
I've been in corporate environments where the company did the math on the cost of OTJ injury related deaths, liabilities, and lawsuits, and came to the conclusion that it was just flat cheaper to be safe. Tesla ought to do the same thing. If their workers unionize, Tesla will have no one to blame but themselves.
That injury rate is too damn high. I'm surprised Tesla is OK with the insurance fallout from this. They've got to be paying much more than they would if they just implemented better safety procedures.
I've been in corporate environments where the company did the math on the cost of OTJ injury related deaths, liabilities, and lawsuits, and came to the conclusion that it was just flat cheaper to be safe. Tesla ought to do the same thing. If their workers unionize, Tesla will have no one to blame but themselves.
If that's the case then they are in serious trouble. And it lends credence to the idea that they have no business doing the manufacturing alone.
Psychoward
Banned
The problem is you're no arguing in good faith for unions. In an ideal world unions wouldn't be needed and there wouldn't be an "us vs. them" scenario at play but that's not the world we live in and they're necessary.
Sorry, it was 3 quarters and it was some hedge fund manager that said it, so not necessarily based on direct knowledge.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Because somehow "free market" has become a one-sided ideal that only applies to a tiny part of the total free market.
People supplying labor aren't supposed to participate.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
They're still in business despite their constant tears.
I don't see how anyone that has been around unions or worked in any lower-level production jobs can talk about the necessity of unions as some kind of "it isn't for me" personal preference rather than (at a minimum) acknowledging the fact that some positions and types of work fundamentally provide workers with absolutely no bargaining power on an individual level, which will lead to unbearable levels of exploitation. It's pretty mind-boggling to me.
Well I'm in Canada and I personally have never seen this in practice. Safety and working conditions are covered by the government. You don't need a union for any of that anymore. I always have bargining power on an individual level. Its a free country and I can get a job. I see a union as a personal preference.
So what do you do when the value you see in yourself and the one your boss sees in you differ? Work harder and hope senpai notices you? You're ok with your boss replacing you with a more willing employee, even though the work you are doing is good? You have too much faith in the system.
Nothing you describe is prevented by unions. Unions are here to help you when bad times happen. Like after working for 30 years for the company that suddenly wants to lay you off. You don't think long time works should be given incentives for their long term dedication? You don't think they should be protected a little bit more because how difficult it is to find a job at 50?
Unions don't prevent bad workers to get fired, they prevent all workers to be fired for inane reasons and without given due credit. If you're shit at your job, you'll get fired, union or not union. But with a union, the company has to actually spell out what bad worker means to them, and isn't just a way of getting rid of someone for whatever reason (like, he
I feel like my brain is being scrambled trying to unpack this so I'm just gonna say "lets agree to disagree" so I can go drink and think about the fact that this kind of logic exists out in the world.
What the fuck? They just said that injuries are 30% higher than other factories in the industry. What are you smoking lol? Seems pretty normal to ask what is going on. 8/100 sounds damn bad even though 6/100 is pretty bad too.
They are going to rake in huge amounts of money here real soon. They will be fine.
the-pi-guy
Member
A big thing that turned me off of Tesla, was hearing Elon Musk talk about how working 80 or 100 hours a week was the best thing to do.
Stuff like this seems pretty much a guarantee by the way that he pushes his employees.
These numbers I don't think are all that surprising.
Stuff like this seems pretty much a guarantee by the way that he pushes his employees.
These numbers I don't think are all that surprising.
Honestly, this slave mentality is so fucked up in America and abroad. We don't even need an 8 hour work day. We don't NEED to work 5 days a week. We are driven like cattle to keep these corporations flowing with cash. To keep the rich richer. Our lifestyles and the way we live are so fucked up.
And then you hear people like Elon that want people to devote their entire lives to his automated, electric vision. Fuck these people.
So a bit surprised NeoGaf hasn't done there research a bit more. The first allegations of high injury rates was reported like a year ago and the information being used by the Union is from the end of 2015.....more than a year and 7 months ago. Elon and Tesla have stated that they have been addressing the issues. Pretty hilarious reading through the response of outrage while ignoring that it's old data and that the company has spoken about the issues. You would think people would wait until the numbers for 2016 or 2017 are out.
Another thing people are failing to do their research on is the pay. Tesla has repeatedly said that the workers are awarded shares that vest over time.....like almost every major company, especially in tech does. The awarded shares can easily match the yearly salary of a worker and Elon has stated that Tesla factory workers are the highest compensated workers in the auto industry. The Union is obviously trying to mislead and leave out information. I work in the tech field, your salary tells only half the story. The other half is yearly bonuses and stock awards.
I think someone mentioned something about Elon being a billionaire and not caring about his employees, their pay, or the health of the company. Elon is a billionaire in theory with his stock, not cash. In fact, he continually holds his Tesla stock without selling and continually goes into private debt to buy more shares when Tesla does a stock offering. Elon is the exact opposite of a typical billionaire. There's no doubt that Elon is a workaholic and expects a lot from his workers. But he's in there with them, spending days and nights at the factory. How many other CEO and billionaire care that much?
Also Tesla doomed to run out of cash in 3 months....3 quarters, it's all pretty silly. Try and do a bit of research before you start spouting information. Tesla has a pretty low share count right now and a very high stock price. They can raise money whenever they want or take on debt like they did recently at low interest.
You don't have to be a Tesla or Elon fanatic just because you call bullshit when you see it. Like a couple people pointed out, the Union has a vested interest here with a company that's expected to see rapid growth in the future. They're trying to make a case and are obviously going to promote their propaganda. Also not all Unions are bad. Auto Unions have been and continue to be terrible for their members and gave the terms "Unions" a bad name.
Another thing people are failing to do their research on is the pay. Tesla has repeatedly said that the workers are awarded shares that vest over time.....like almost every major company, especially in tech does. The awarded shares can easily match the yearly salary of a worker and Elon has stated that Tesla factory workers are the highest compensated workers in the auto industry. The Union is obviously trying to mislead and leave out information. I work in the tech field, your salary tells only half the story. The other half is yearly bonuses and stock awards.
I think someone mentioned something about Elon being a billionaire and not caring about his employees, their pay, or the health of the company. Elon is a billionaire in theory with his stock, not cash. In fact, he continually holds his Tesla stock without selling and continually goes into private debt to buy more shares when Tesla does a stock offering. Elon is the exact opposite of a typical billionaire. There's no doubt that Elon is a workaholic and expects a lot from his workers. But he's in there with them, spending days and nights at the factory. How many other CEO and billionaire care that much?
Also Tesla doomed to run out of cash in 3 months....3 quarters, it's all pretty silly. Try and do a bit of research before you start spouting information. Tesla has a pretty low share count right now and a very high stock price. They can raise money whenever they want or take on debt like they did recently at low interest.
You don't have to be a Tesla or Elon fanatic just because you call bullshit when you see it. Like a couple people pointed out, the Union has a vested interest here with a company that's expected to see rapid growth in the future. They're trying to make a case and are obviously going to promote their propaganda. Also not all Unions are bad. Auto Unions have been and continue to be terrible for their members and gave the terms "Unions" a bad name.
MonorailCat
Member
How long are people supposed to wait? 2016 ended 8 months ago.
He didn't tell "a group of journalists" we're going through production hell, he told his employees that at the model 3 event. His employees knowing that this doesn't mean you're going to get your hand crushed in a press but that manufacturing is difficult and unexpected things happen, like supply chain issues.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The demonization of unions in this country was a stroke of genius on the part of evil corporations, combined with the impact of somehow convincing the government to make strikebreakers completely legal.
lol. It's true though.
Higher production - more chance of injury.
It's not like Musk is walking up and down the production line whipping them as they scurry around a huge machine that has blades swinging around. accidents happen, if you're producing at a higher volume than other factories it should be factored in and I'm sure it would be less than 33% if that was the case.
People wouldn't be working if the safety standards hadn't been met in the first place,these places get inspected up the wazoo constantly
How can this be true?
You get from the system what you put in it. If you want everybody to work less, be prepared to lower your lifestyle. You're also free to start a fewer work hours company, and see how well it goes.
So a person wants to dedicate their life for a great vision that helps the world, and fuck them.
TheRagnCajun
Member
Learning to build a car is hell. No doubt Tesla is going through growing pains right now. They will make a lot of mistakes and see a lot of challenges before they are out of the woods. Despite the god-like reputation of Elon Musk - he can't single-handedly scale up an OEM automotive manufacturing organization and make it successful. It will take a long time for the organization to mature to a point where it is meeting industry standards at high production volumes.
The real story here is if he can keep the union at bay, because they will make everything more difficult.
The real story here is if he can keep the union at bay, because they will make everything more difficult.
excelsiorlef
Member
More excuses
In a few years you will be driving a Tesla or something similar under the same conditions at Tesla now.
If Tesla goes the way of Ford, the government will be bailing them out in a few years.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
I hate this tired argument. If there was some magical automation technology to replace them. it would have already been done, wouldn't it? It essentially amounts to: shut up and give the boss more power, and if you don't, you're the problem for ever asking for anything more than the shit conditions you're in. It's like victim blaming.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
Yes, it's the billionaire who is the victim.
How can you even type this out and post it?
I don't think my point came across. We don't, as of right now, know what the injury rate is.....because that information is not available. The Union is using numbers and information from the end of 2015. Numbers, which were calculated over the course of all of 2015. We don't know what the injury rate was at the beginning of 2015 vs the end of 2015. We don't know what the injury rate was in 2016 and we don't know what the injury rate is as of right now.
This is why outrage I see in this thread is a bit ridiculous to me. Elon/Tesla stated and acknowledge that they were doing extreme overtime in early and mid 2015......which was when the company was essentially trying to prove out it's business. They have since stated multiple times that they hired on more to alleviate overtime shifts. Again, it would be one thing if these accusations came out and Tesla/Elon stayed silent....and it kept happening year after year after year. But Tesla and Elon have addressed this in statements.
If the Union wants to be present valid, current numbers and information, then of course I would be harsher on Tesla.
Also, the fact the Union keeps repeatedly using the salary numbers of $18/hour as "total compensation" makes me very suspicious of the information their using. Like that's not even a debate. They're flat out lying by saying Tesla factory workers are underpaid.
michaelius
Banned
Yeah but it looks like they are doing it at the expense of their workers
They are nice cars.
Not that we should necessarily take his word for it, but Elon cited the TRIR to be lower than the industry average in early 2017:
source
adamsappel
Member
There's no reason a group of employees shouldn't be able to form their own internal union.
not saying that this is the case here, but there seems to be people constantly betting against Tesla including putting out negative news or press to try and hurt them.
do you have anything to back this claim up, cause it would require some proof that Tesla is actively NOT trying to make the work environment better for workers.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Has any of the employees contacted OSHA?
I'd say there is a 99% chance that the news in the OP is specifically designed to hurt Tesla. Articles like these hurt Tesla's case and help the unions, not by accident. The main complaints in the article are from "a group of factory workers from Tesla's main Fremont, Calif., facility". Not discounting that the complaints are valid, but management will cherry-pick numbers the same way that the union reps will cherry-pick theirs.
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