Support NeoGAF

[Schnauzer]

@Brian.

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you're missing Kharazim in your list.

 

[brian!]

i put monk at tier 3 but I dunno if that's the right spot

feel free to mix and match the tier list like refrigerator magnets ppl, I don't care if ppl revamp it in their style I just like talking about it

you know what it probably would have been better to do this by role since it's all automated

 

[Milly79]

I'm going to make my list in a bit here, but I ALWAYS take resistant when I get hammer. It's OP as hell in aram.

 

[Alur]

IMO I can't see Kharazim below the top tier of any supports. Can heal the whole team with his AOE, can heal for free early when mana is sparse, can easily finish kills for the team even at level one which is huge, etc. He's the total package.

I can't see Tassadar above tier 3 in your list for the same reason Brian! says he can't see Hammer above 2. While his tools are strong, certain comps and heroes nearly guarantee a loss unless you stacked your team with all the better players before the game and just outskill your opponent regardless of comp like we did there for a bit.

I'd go like this for supports:


Kharazim-Tyrande (OP)---Brightwing (infinite sustain early to get the lead and mana not req to keep it)-Rehgar-Malfurion (heal for a shitton, Malf provides less early healing but can keep your assassins going)-Uther/Morales/Tassadar (comp dependent)----Lili (broken late, but the single target heals early make her weaker than the rest unless you hit an AA team)

 

[brian!]

rethinking supports id probably go

uther
tass
monk
bw
medic
rehgar
tyrande
malf
lili

I do think monk should be bumped up but mainly because 7strike gets a lot of value in the way the comps get created (you often have a warrior going in first ahead of his team), and the reason I value uther so much, besides his stun, is because his passive wins midgame so handily. also I don't value heals very much but if I were ranking by heals monk and rehgar would be at the top.

maybe id switch rehgar around w/ bw because of how ancestral can win fights but I don't really see too many long fights or ancestral chances generally

tass is just broken still, esp late, but it's true that if your team is bad at not constantly taking free damage his value drops. wells being taken on cd is what lowers the keeping ppl topped off value to me, I feel like I can basically time tapping well so I'm never in a bad spot

tyrande can be really good w/ good positioning but it feels like more often than not she's just food

medic is too high in the list I just put, she has prtty real mana problems, her w is so strong though

but yeh my list values healing but not as an end all, like I never feel like I need more heals or that I have too little heals in these games, and tass's numbers, esp in situations where you're fighting often and rotating in and out, are like the rent, too damn high

 

[Milly79]

S: Kael'Thas, Sylvanas, Sgt. Hammer. Rehgar

A: Azmodan, Raynor, Nazeebo, Valla, Kharazim, ETC, Lt. Morales, Tyrande, Stitches, Johanna, Jaina, Diablo, Leoric

B: Nova, Uther, Tassadar, Zagara, Muradin, Brightwing, Arthas, Falstad

C: Tychus, Li Li, Zeratul, Thrall, Sonya, Kerrigan, Artanis, Gazlowe, Johanna

D: Malfurion, Lunara, Illidan, Butcher, Murky, Rexxar, The Lost Vikings, Abathur, Anub'Arak, Chen, Tyrael

LOL: Cho'Gall

Bet I'll catch some flak for some of those.

 

[Alur]

tass is just broken still, esp late, but it's true that if your team is bad at not constantly taking free damage his value drops

So basically every ARAM game because most of the players are sub rank 15.

Heals are what wins the ARAM unless you get one of the 3 super OP damage heroes for the mode. Monk's ability to finish kills is unlike any non-Tyrande, and he outheals her to boot. And doesn't go through the early issue she has of being unable to heal his team due to Healing Totem + passive heals.

For the non healing heroes...beyond KT, Sylvanas, Hammer there's a bit of a drop to where you could include Zagara's early game and ETC next. Most of the rest of the non healing heroes are simply on a scale from weak to strong facilitators towards a win. A hero like Tyrande/Kharazim/KT/Sylv/Hammer is an out-and-out decider of a win unless you are just completely outskilled or do stupid stuff.

Which healer you get bears an inordinate amount of weight on how the game goes. If you get Tassadar with any tank that isn't a strong frontline presence, you're at a disadvantage. The only thing that is near commiserate with it is if you get one of the 5 heroes above, or you get the short end of the stick with Abathur/Nova/TLV + none of hte heroes above and then those 3 hurt your team more than other options.

 

[brian!]

i mean his value drops but it's still top 3 kappa

but yah obviously we have prtty different philosophies about this I think that's cool

 

[Alur]

lol I don't think mine is a philosophy at all. A philosophy would be what I value. This is just cold hard "if you pulled the numbers a-la hotdoggies you'd see these winrates".

The team that gets one of those 3 OP heroes vs a team that doesn't wins like 70% of the time...unless the team is stacked against them beforehand. The team that gets a Kharazim or Tyrande vs a Tassadar or Lili often wins, etc.

I mean, a hero that can do the same or better damage than Tass + heal everyone vs Tass who cannot permanently return health + does middling damage? Seems like a pretty simple solution.

Den again, I know you got dat Tass bias so you gotta ride w/ your boi.

EDIT: And as Milly says, I got dat monk bias. But to me more numbers in both categories + the ability to finish all the kills that getaway = far more valuable than a force wall every few seconds that is as apt to cost a kill as it is to secure one. And Tyrande is Tyrande. She OP.

 

[Milly79]

Some fun little stats:

Since 12-27, I've played 67 ARAM games. I'm 51-16.

My most played heroes are (over 4 GP):

Azmodan 5-1
Li Li 4-0
Malfurion 2-2
Rehgar 4-0
Valla 5-0

Warrior: 15 GP
Support: 21 GP
Assassin: 14 GP
Specialist: 17 GP

 

[Alur]

Felt like you played 35 support and 30 warrior and a few specialist and next to nothing for assassins.

 

[Milly79]

Felt like you played 35 support and 30 warrior and a few specialist and next to nothing for assassins.

I know, right? I don't mind playing support at all, in fact I've done well with it overall only losing 3-4 games. Warrior on the other hand...

 

[brian!]

I get the numbers thing definitely, like that is a big reason why monk is up there for me, plus he can make plays in ways the other supports cant

but it is a philosophy thing I think, because I don't value those things as much, like im here valuing uther because of what happens when he dies

 

[Indignate]

Played my first aram. Immediate BM. Someone decided we lost and just went to other lanes.

Which is weird cuz why not just disconnect?

 

[brian!]

dang that sucks
when I did aram today there were all these new rules all of a sudden haha
like apparently ppl dont want you to go into the bottom smoke in infernal now

 

[RumblingRosco]

I think you all undervalue Malfurion. I find games constantly result in my teammates without mana. Malf lets your team be way more aggressive mana-wise. He isn't top tier by any means but I think easily hits mid-tier. Also Entangle is great with so many clumped opponents.

 

[Milly79]

I think you all undervalue Malfurion. I find games constantly result in my teammates without mana. Malf lets your team be way more aggressive mana-wise. He isn't top tier by any means but I think easily hits mid-tier. Also Entangle is great with so many clumped opponents.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but he's pretty weak. If your team isn't very smart with their engages, Malf is worthless until 10. The HoT is terrible for aram where most are gung-ho about engagements. Innervate is great for everyone but Malf, who is constantly mana starved. Why they removed Conjurers I'll never know. Doesn't make sense he can't use innervate on himself either. He desperately needs it early game. May be an issue later game when mana isn't an issue. Roots is great though for those wombos that happen somewhat frequently in aram.

 

[brian!]

yeah roots is nice to have, i dont think innervate does much, except sometimes you can make your team go back in when they were running away needlessly, like somehow that convinces them lol

i dont like him because i feel forced into all the healing talents, I'd like it if life seed was able to be activated

ive had ppl in my games happy that they were malf though

 

[davepoobond]

i play an aggressive spec with Malf that is half healing/half cc-damage, and i find it to be quite effective. i'm getting a lot of assists and even get a lot of kills/siege damage.

i suppose it depends on the comp, but more often than not it seems to help me win. or i can at least give more to the team than just a big HOT which might not exactly be help in crucial moments.


level 1 talent is deal 100% damage to mercs/minions
level 4 - basic abilities range increase by 30%
level 7 - regrowth +6 seconds
level 10 - tranq
level 16 - moonfire slow for 2 seconds
level 20 - Tranq boost

 

[Venus Van Dam]

i play an aggressive spec with Malf that is half healing/half cc-damage, and i find it to be quite effective. i'm getting a lot of assists and even get a lot of kills/siege damage.

i suppose it depends on the comp, but more often than not it seems to help me win. or i can at least give more to the team than just a big HOT which might not exactly be help in crucial moments.


level 1 talent is deal 100% damage to mercs/minions
level 4 - basic abilities range increase by 30%
level 7 - regrowth +6 seconds
level 10 - tranq
level 16 - moonfire slow for 2 seconds
level 20 - Tranq boost

You are a brave Malf player. I can only imagine the complaints you receive from your team when they realize you aren't a support Malf. But you must pick this setup with the company of a Tass or Tyrande I supose.

 

[brian!]

In terms of healing talents thats the standard malf build i think, w/ 13 being ice block/shrink and 16 being hardened/roots, but i understand the urge to talent into w there which is fine if you're winning. Argument can be made for the burst heal talent at 4 but it's not a must take or anything.

Iceblock is pretty necessary for the malfs in my mmr, but it's also a nice thing to pick up just because you can go aggressive and combo it with tranq. But hes like tyrande, he has to position or he's food, and ice block helps him in that regard

I play mainly with my brugh and he talents completely into w tho

I feel like naming a talent "full moonfire" is pretty good marketing too

Theres also the build that takes the mana talents at 1 and 4 which is good on maps like boe or channeling maps when you have things like zag on your team, like the only healing talents that are worth taking on him is the one at 7 and maybe the one at 4 if it pushes you past their burst

 

[davepoobond]

You are a brave Malf player. I can only imagine the complaints you receive from your team when they realize you aren't a support Malf. But you must pick this setup with the company of a Tass or Tyrande I supose.

i usually take radius/mana reduction at 13, i forgot to note it. sometimes i switch it but not often. it helps with mass slows/wave clears once i get the moonfire slow.

My healing is actually not very low, i do spend a lot of time on healing on cooldown, but i pump out moonfire on cooldown as well, which helps kill enemy players which indirectly helps damage reduction as well.

My roots placement help heroes as often as the healing does.

In terms of healing talents thats the standard malf build i think, w/ 13 being ice block/shrink and 16 being hardened/roots, but i understand the urge to talent into w there which is fine if you're winning. Argument can be made for the burst heal talent at 4 but it's not a must take or anything.

i used to take the burst heal at 4, but being able to heal farther away was helping me more.

Iceblock is pretty necessary for the malfs in my mmr, but it's also a nice thing to pick up just because you can go aggressive and combo it with tranq. But hes like tyrande, he has to position or he's food, and ice block helps him in that regard

I play mainly with my brugh and he talents completely into w tho

I feel like naming a talent "full moonfire" is pretty good marketing too

Theres also the build that takes the mana talents at 1 and 4 which is good on maps like boe or channeling maps when you have things like zag on your team, like the only healing talents that are worth taking on him is the one at 7 and maybe the one at 4 if it pushes you past their burst

at least at my MMR its working more often than not, but I'm sure if I'm getting higher MMR where the healer is focused more often than not I would have to get the ice block talent instead.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I've never ran an offensive Malfurion. That seems generally not-good. I usually do pick the two Innervate talents at 1 and 4 with Tranq and Iceblock down the road, but those Innervate talents really depend on my team composition. I like Malf overall but think he's a below-average support in normal games and about average in ARAM.

Basically, slow heal over time gets trumped by huge burst damage, which is the meta we live in right now.

 

[brian!]

"Full moonfire" is one the most alluring talent names in the game i think

Hardened focus could be the opposite of that
Legit hesitate to take that talent when im considering 16 because of the name

 

[Maledict]

There are a couple of heroes getting small balance updates in the next couple of weeks that could help with some of the heavier stuns in the meta. While these updates won't come out with Greymane, they'll be going live shortly after.
The amount of stuns available in Heroes of the Storm is a subject the balance team has been discussing lately. Obviously crowd control can be very powerful, but the amount of stuns in a game can vary depending on the heroes selected per a match. This is a subject we'll be keeping an eye on and we're not opposed to making adjustments if they are needed. Please feel free to let us know your thoughts.

So not tweaks at all with Greymane next week it seems. have to say, it does feel like Kirblar et al were right and they took December off. Not entirely sure why they haven't been a bit faster on small tweaks to characters following the scaling changes - they knew it would up end things, why they haven't responded is slightly perplexing.

I really enjoyed the fact they were making much smaller, much faster "tweaks" to characters over the last year rather than the previous heavy handed nerfs, and was hoping we would see a bit of that as a stopgap measure whilst the wider stun changes etc are coming.

I really need to practise my Tyrande more it seems!

 

[Milly79]

Can't wait to see the changes.

 

[Maledict]

I'd honestly quite like an across the board health increase for heroes and a larger damage increase for structures. I think the scaling changes were a decent idea but they have shorted the time to kill so much I find the game less enjoyable - stuff just dies too fast. It's one of the things I liked about heroes, the fact that heroes didn't instantly explode like they do in other MOBAs, and we've lost a bit of that.

Individual character nerfs of course would go on top of that! ;-)

 

[Alur]

I agree with you on TTK Maledict, but unfortunately I think that was calculated.

As they have said previously (if I'm not mistaken), their focus groups or whatever tell them that people who play mobas enjoy that stuff. Combo killing heroes, insta-deaths, etc. I dunno that it will go away if that is the case.

I forget what it was, but a while back they addressed one of those groups/studies for a change and kirblar was talking about it. He can probably remember it and expand on the idea.

 

[kirblar]

I agree with you on TTK Maledict, but unfortunately I think that was calculated.

As they have said previously (if I'm not mistaken), their focus groups or whatever tell them that people who play mobas enjoy that stuff. Combo killing heroes, insta-deaths, etc. I dunno that it will go away if that is the case.

I forget what it was, but a while back they addressed one of those groups/studies for a change and kirblar was talking about it. He can probably remember it and expand on the idea.

KDA got put in because of them.

Here's the main issue- the game should be objective based and feature PvP and teamfights that happen because of objectives.

Instead it's become a game that revolves around teamfights. That's not good.

I hope that the structure change and Tass/Ty changes weren't the result of listening to feedback from neanderthals. Sadly, you may be right.

 

[brian!]

I like the scaling changes in theory (like the more dangerous early game, assassins being more refined w/ their health and dmg, etc.) and i really like that they just fukkin did it, but, as noted by a bunch of ppl, the aftermath needed a lot of attention that didnt happen

 

[kirblar]

I like the scaling changes in theory (like the more dangerous early game, assassins being more refined w/ their health and dmg, etc.) and i really like that they just fukkin did it, but, as noted by a bunch of ppl, the aftermath needed a lot of attention that didnt happen

What's scary is that with the 12 week length of this patch, you'd expect that to be a big data analysis/patch time.

Instead, its like they're sitting on their hands.

 

[davepoobond]

towers might seem like they fall faster, but it definitely put more emphasis on the team fights than the tower killing. objectives still kind of matter but only as a vessel in which you win team fights with a reward at the end of it.

the games aren't particularly shorter, but more often than not they can end shorter now if there is a huge imbalance. i still see a lot of games where the losing team rallies and ends up winning and those are over 20 minute games. almost never see 30 minute games anymore


i think id like to see towers get some sort of revamp, or at least not be able to be killed until around level 5. there was a game i played where all 5 of us pushed one lane and got a fort down in less than 5 minutes. but we ended up losing anyway.

 

[Maledict]

I agree with you on TTK Maledict, but unfortunately I think that was calculated.

As they have said previously (if I'm not mistaken), their focus groups or whatever tell them that people who play mobas enjoy that stuff. Combo killing heroes, insta-deaths, etc. I dunno that it will go away if that is the case.

I forget what it was, but a while back they addressed one of those groups/studies for a change and kirblar was talking about it. He can probably remember it and expand on the idea.

That really depresses me if true. I play HotS because it's different to other mobas. Time to kill is part of that difference. Every year I watch the Invitational, and this year it was dreadful because heroes just vanished from half way across the screen in a blast of CC and burst damage. I don't want that in HotS - attracting other MOBA players isn't going to help if it removes some of the things that makes HotS unique (and better IMHO).

 

[Milly79]

S: Kael'Thas, Sylvanas, Sgt. Hammer. Rehgar, Falstad

A: Azmodan, Raynor, Nazeebo, Valla, Kharazim, ETC, Lt. Morales, Tyrande, Stitches, Johanna, Jaina, Diablo, Leoric

B: Nova, Uther, Tassadar, Zagara, Muradin, Brightwing, Arthas

C: Tychus, Li Li, Zeratul, Thrall, Sonya, Kerrigan, Artanis, Gazlowe, Johanna

D: Malfurion, Lunara, Illidan, Butcher, Murky, Rexxar, The Lost Vikings, Abathur, Anub'Arak, Chen, Tyrael

LOL: Cho'Gall

Updated tier list. Falstad goes from B to S tier. Z into MG wins games, HARD. Quite

in ARAM.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I like to use Haymaker to push people out of bounds and then say "OUT OF BOUNDS CHEATER SACRIFICE YOUR HERO" and it usually gets a good laugh out of people. Thus, MVP. Mighty Gust should work similarly.

 

[WonderRade]

how often do other mobas do patches? Hero or balance wise?

 

[Strider]

how often do other mobas do patches? Hero or balance wise?

Can only speak for Dota 2...

Dota patches that include balance changes come waaaay less often than in HotS (About 3 big patches a year since I started playing)... But when they do come they are fucking epic. Here's what the most recent Dota update looked like: http://www.dota2.com/balanceofpower
Just scroll down to get an idea.

There will be some smaller patches in between the big updates that have very minor balance changes, hats and bug fixes but that's it really. Nothing to be excited about...

--

HotS can't afford to sit back and go that long without an update though like Dota 2 can but I definitely always give a big "meh" when I see HotS patch notes... Since it's very underwhelming compared to the other moba I play. But of course HotS doesn't have humongous gaps without anything new like Dota does either which is nice in it's own way.

Whether I'm excited for a HotS patch or not solely comes down to what new hero is getting added and if they seem like fun to me...

 

[kirblar]

Per one of the threads over on Reddit, early LOL patched super often.

 

[Duress]

wtf is a "Heals" Tyrande? All the heal talents are garbage except for better heals at full health and Shadowstalk.

 

[Alur]

wtf is a "Heals" Tyrande? All the heal talents are garbage except for better heals at full health and Shadowstalk.

You take owl talents at 1 and 4, or Battle Momentum at 7 = much more frequent healing. Popularized in pro games IIRC.

 

[Duress]

You take owl talents at 1 and 4, or Battle Momentum at 7 = much more frequent healing. Popularized in pro games IIRC.

Ahh I see! I might try that out later.

 

[WonderRade]

Per one of the threads over on Reddit, early LOL patched super often.

i saw something to this effect and was curious. It feels like the complaining has gotten really large as of late. Im not too prone to blaming devs myself combined that with my unfamiliarity to how other mobas means i have been easy to please.

I suppose if i played hero league more i might understand better. like if you asked, Personally I think they have done a pretty good job with hots. Although maybe its just this patch that has exacerbated the problem of not having the things other mobas have had. (or so im told)

 

[Ketch]

You know what's hilarious? I'll probably be home before/right as the patch hits and I will have literally missed nothing.

 

[kirblar]

i saw something to this effect and was curious. It feels like the complaining has gotten really large as of late. Im not too prone to blaming devs myself combined that with my unfamiliarity to how other mobas means i have been easy to please.

I suppose if i played hero league more i might understand better. like if you asked, Personally I think they have done a pretty good job with hots. Although maybe its just this patch that has exacerbated the problem of not having the things other mobas have had. (or so im told)

This is basically 3 months of no patch following one of the biggest paradigm shifts in the game's history, something which blew up a lot of the work they had already done.

There's no timely follow up, and it's a problem.

 

[Maledict]

If they just had bans for hero league life would be a lot easier and we'd see much more varied games. I loved Chu8s guide to winning games:

pick Tyrande
pick 3 from Diablo, Kt, Raynor, Muradin, Zagara
pick one Nova, Thrall, Tassadar, Sonya

 

[patchday]

played for the first time in 17 days. Had fun in HL but I keep thinking we could use map voting. But guess I complained bout that already a few pages back. In other moba, I feel like I have control of my play experience cause I manually choose the map I want to play on. But in this game I feel quite helpless.

I just dont understand why they give us no options at all. Too spoiled by other moba and FPS I guess

Besides that the game is sooooo much fun. So many great heroes.

Ok, gonna go tryout Smite. Never did give it a shot. Basically trying to distract myself til Overwatch returns hehe (which ironically, has no map voting either atm)

 

[brian!]

Smite is pretty fun

Old me would have thought that the real ranked mode for this game would have had map drafting on top of hero bans but it's not gonna haaapppenn

 

[brian!]

S: Kael'Thas, Sylvanas, Sgt. Hammer. Rehgar, Falstad

A: Azmodan, Raynor, Nazeebo, Valla, Kharazim, ETC, Lt. Morales, Tyrande, Stitches, Johanna, Jaina, Diablo, Leoric

B: Nova, Uther, Tassadar, Zagara, Muradin, Brightwing, Arthas

C: Tychus, Li Li, Zeratul, Thrall, Sonya, Kerrigan, Artanis, Gazlowe, Johanna

D: Malfurion, Lunara, Illidan, Butcher, Murky, Rexxar, The Lost Vikings, Abathur, Anub'Arak, Chen, Tyrael

LOL: Cho'Gall

Updated tier list. Falstad goes from B to S tier. Z into MG wins games, HARD. Quite

in ARAM.

Y the rehgar love

Woops dbl post

 

[Altairre]

You take owl talents at 1 and 4, or Battle Momentum at 7 = much more frequent healing. Popularized in pro games IIRC.

The CDR is so stupid. It always feels like the enemy team gets shadowstalked every 10 seconds if you're on the other end of it.

 

[Alur]

Ok, gonna go tryout Smite. Never did give it a shot. Basically trying to distract myself til Overwatch returns hehe (which ironically, has no map voting either atm)

To echo the yung ARAMdamus brian!, Smite is pretty fun. The graphical style was a bit weird for me, but the gameplay was interesting. Plus you can get a shitton of heroes for peanuts.