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[Boken]

Man, I got invited to play Magic with some friends the other day. They all had new decks and were so pumped to play and I was still playing with my old stuff. Just wasn't fun and I don't have the heart to drop more money on Magic when I already feel invested in this game. Not to mention I rarely see my friends anyway.

I probably should go ahead and make a new deck though, I doubt I'll be getting to play the alpha this year, lol.

this is why I only play limited

 

[Shinjica]

Is this F2P or you must spend cash on playing Hex ?

PVE is free. The PVP card are not free, you have to pay it with real money or use ingame money in the Auction house

 

[StMeph]

Banning is black and white and extreme. In most cases, cards won't need to be banned, and when they do, it's an extreme measure that happens at specified times and with great forethought and seriousness. The measurable effect of this, in real world examples, is very minor: occasionally people get bitten by investing in broken cards that then get banned, but generally it means people feel safe knowing that a card they buy will be worth what it's really worth. Banning also is less disruptive the more formats there are -- in Magic, for example, a lot of cards get banned in Vintage (all cards ever) but not Standard (most recent cards) or vice versa.

Errata is unpredictable. You might buy or trade for some super-expensive card, only for the cost to go up or some loophole in the effect to get closed, causing it to plummet in value. If errata is on the table, there's complete uncertainty -- what a card does at the moment might have nothing to do with what it does tomorrow, and one of the best cards in the game might turn into unplayable drek. This produces huge uncertainty in the market and leads to frequent instances of unhappy players.

The tl;dr here is that holding yourself to a banning-only policy means that there will be uncertainty around the very best cards in a format, but people can feel absolutely safe about everything else; using errata means there's never any certainty whatsoever about any card.

I definitely agree that banning/restricting is the preferred way to handle the issue, but errata -- in my opinion -- is something else. It's more akin to fixing a vague text that might be interpreted several ways, when only one is actually accurate. And for things like that, to PREVENT misunderstandings, I would be completely for text clarifications if the original effect of the card goes unchanged.

MTG sometimes changed names or descriptions, adding/revising types and properties, like the more recent change of Remove from Game to Void, etc. These types of changes I would like to see updated and reflected in old cards if that were to occur in HEX. No mechanical changes, but text updates to preserve clarity.

 

[Brakara]

Cards can be unbanned later or playable in legacy formats. A nerfed card will be junk forever

Why would you tweak a card so that it becomes "junk" ? That makes no sense what so ever.

Banning is black and white and extreme. In most cases, cards won't need to be banned, and when they do, it's an extreme measure that happens at specified times and with great forethought and seriousness.

And why couldn't you have card changes with the same great forethought and seriousness? You're basically saying it's either banning in rare circumstances or doing card tweaks willy nilly. Of which the latter nobody has argued for.

I'm asking, why ban instead of tweaking cards? The former makes the card almost completely worthless (especially in a digital game), while the latter makes it still valuable (although less than it was) and also still playable. But you basically answered a completely different question, where nobody in their right mind would disagree would you.

Trust me, don't bother questioning the logic - it won't get you anywhere.

Pretty much.

 

[StMeph]

I'm asking, why ban instead of tweaking cards? The former makes the card almost completely worthless (especially in a digital game), while the latter makes it still valuable (although less than it was) and also still playable. But you basically answered a completely different question, where nobody in their right mind would disagree would you.

Tweaking for balance is a problem because then anything around the threshold of being broken -- stuff that's very very good -- becomes a possible target for the nerfbat. There's a cloud of uncertainty over any great cards, and it affects values, trades, and deckbuilding. It removes certainty from the system (knowing what you're getting), and every market and system prefers certainty.

Banning is extreme. That's the nuclear option. But it also means that it's done in an extremely small number of cases -- way fewer cases than if a card could be tweaked. Banning is an admission of inadequate testing and failure in design. Tweaking never ends.

 

[Minsc]

Plus you can still enjoy your banned cards in the exact way you originally got them in unrestricted formats that allow retired/banned cards.

 

[Mugaaz]

Tweaking for balance is a problem because then anything around the threshold of being broken -- stuff that's very very good -- becomes a possible target for the nerfbat. There's a cloud of uncertainty over any great cards, and it affects values, trades, and deckbuilding. It removes certainty from the system (knowing what you're getting), and every market and system prefers certainty.

Banning is extreme. That's the nuclear option. But it also means that it's done in an extremely small number of cases -- way fewer cases than if a card could be tweaked. Banning is an admission of inadequate testing and failure in design. Tweaking never ends.

I 100% agree, but until a set is released there is absolutely no reason why they can't tweak. Any balance changes they make now are fine, since Set 1 is not released.

 

[StMeph]

I 100% agree, but until a set is released there is absolutely no reason why they can't tweak. Any balance changes they make now are fine, since Set 1 is not released.

I don't think anyone is advocating for preserving cards in their Alpha state, only post-launch.

 

[JustProgress]

How did the stress test go?

 

[charlequin]

I definitely agree that banning/restricting is the preferred way to handle the issue, but errata -- in my opinion -- is something else. It's more akin to fixing a vague text that might be interpreted several ways, when only one is actually accurate.

Yeah, that stuff is fine, it's just what the Magic people call "power-level errata" (i.e. balance changes to cards after they're already released) that's a problem IMO.

And why couldn't you have card changes with the same great forethought and seriousness?

Well, to start, because making power-level tweaks to cards is as much work -- maybe more -- than developing new sets in the first place. The impact of changing even a single card is huge, but it's not even guaranteed to work. If the tweak isn't exactly right, it might not solve the problem it was made in response to -- which then engenders yet more tweaks, either changing the same card multiple times, or tweaking lots of cards at once to achieve a specific competitive result. It rapidly accelerates once you start; you get into situations where you tweak cards to fix problems that didn't really need to be fixed, or tweak over and over to solve one problem that the banhammer could've fixed right away.

And that's ignoring all the ancillary damage caused by power errata. It hurts people's memory of card effects (and with it the sense of satisfaction from mastery in the game), which can lead to feel-bad moments and slow play from people who misremember changed cards. It's also worse the more formats you have; if a card is great and fun in one format, but it's disruptive and overpowered in another, you're stuck using banning to fix it or else cause collateral damage. And there's the uncertainty other people mentioned -- every slightly good card becomes risky in this context, instead of just clearly overpowered ones.

You're basically saying it's either banning in rare circumstances or doing card tweaks willy nilly.

In practice that is the choice you're making, and it's why people with experience managing TCGs usually choose the former.

 

[michaelius]

In practice that is the choice you're making, and it's why people with experience managing TCGs usually choose the former.

That's experience from paper TCGs.

We are speaking MMO here so developer can pull tons of usefull statistical data from database.

Also major reason to avoid erratas is that printed text doesn't much gameplay effect after that - again not a problem in digital only.

 

[Shrennin]

That's experience from paper TCGs.

We are speaking MMO here so developer can pull tons of usefull statistical data from database.

It's the same thing when Hex is concerned. Editing cards after the fact, like in games such as Hearthstone, is fine as the cards themselves contain absolutely no value since they cannot be traded or sold within the game. This is not true of Hex. CZE is even hoping to allow players to sell their cards to other players for real money one day - that wouldn't be possible at all if text could be changed for balance. You change even one card's text and the value of all cards would constantly be in question.

 

[KuroNeeko]

Anyone have any theories about what the big surprise announcement is going to be? I get the impression that it's going to be something that will generate a lot of mixed reactions. Just some guesses but,

・ Hex coming to some new platform (consoles?) / medium (physical)
・ Introduction of a new product (comic books, animated short)
・ Beta for all backers
・ Beta access temporarily blocked for all backers while they implement something new
・ Merger with another company, perhaps a well-known publisher
・ A tentative release date for PvE or open beta, the catch being it's next year

or something along those lines. Cory saying that it's important everyone realize that there are things that they just don't know, things only that Crypto has all the information for... makes me think his announcement is going to anger a few people.

Watchu all think?

 

[Smiley90]

I'll go with the not-so-surprising "next wave will include all 250$ tier players", starting right now.

but given that they said they'll send out emails BEFORE making an official announcement on that to avoid server-overload, i kind of doubt it's that.

so............. maybe they hired some fancy artists or are further on the Mac/iOS/android clients, who knows.

 

[KuroNeeko]

I'll go with the not-so-surprising "next wave will include all 250$ tier players", starting right now.

but given that they said they'll send out emails BEFORE making an official announcement on that to avoid server-overload, i kind of doubt it's that.

so............. maybe they hired some fancy artists or are further on the Mac/iOS/android clients, who knows.

I don't know, I don't think either of those announcements would warrant this -

Hi Everyone! So I wanted to jump in and let you know that we have some exciting news coming next week, and before the inevitable “what it all means” questions come up, let me say: Is important for Cryptozoic to “know what you don’t know.”

I have seen to many projects fail because the group in charge thought they knew it all. Well, we don’t know it all, and if we are going to set ourselves up for success we need to make sure we have every possible issue thought through with a solution in place. So stay tuned, and expect me to give you all the details after the announcement.

Maybe it's something that requires backer feedback, but I feel like it's going to be a give-and-take announcement. We'll get something but lose something else. Maybe the game will go live sooner, but PvE will be post-poned or something.

 

[StMeph]

Playing the Hearthstone Beta, it's clear that Blizzard is very good at simplifying and streamlining stuff that's very complex to lure in people who would otherwise never give the subject a chance, but I'm already craving the deeper interactions that have been a part of CCGs for so long.

Where is my HEX Alphaaaaa

 

[Minsc]

Playing the Hearthstone Beta, it's clear that Blizzard is very good at simplifying and streamlining stuff that's very complex to lure in people who would otherwise never give the subject a chance, but I'm already craving the deeper interactions that have been a part of CCGs for so long.

Where is my HEX Alphaaaaa

If there's one thing all CCGs could learn from Hearthstone, it's the UI, which is just phenomenal. I'm going to miss being able to see what my opponent is mousing over while playing their turn (really amazed me it was done in real time, so if they hover over three cards for different lengths you see it all, and if they mis-target an ability and can't complete it, you see their errors as well - it gives you their entire thinking process basically), the perfectly presented game log on the left of the screen, and all the other little touches in the Hearthstone UI that make it fun to play.

 

[Smiley90]

If there's one thing all CCGs could learn from Hearthstone, it's the UI, which is just phenomenal. I'm going to miss being able to see what my opponent is mousing over while playing their turn (really amazed me it was done in real time, so if they hover over three cards for different lengths you see it all, and if they mis-target an ability and can't complete it, you see their errors as well - it gives you their entire thinking process basically), the perfectly presented game log on the left of the screen, and all the other little touches in the Hearthstone UI that make it fun to play.

The lack of a grace period for disconnects in a monetary format (Arena) is a bunch of BS though. My wifi router drops my connection for like 3 seconds every once in a while, which is an automatic loss.

I hope to got Hex has grace periods...

 

[Minsc]

The lack of a grace period for disconnects in a monetary format (Arena) is a bunch of BS though. My wifi router drops my connection for like 3 seconds every once in a while, which is an automatic loss.

I hope to got Hex has grace periods...

I haven't experienced that myself, but yes, Hearthstone still has a lot of flaws outside the UI. I wouldn't associate the connection policies with the UI though.

I would hope they fix it before release, but in general what I'd like to see is if turns are 1 minute, the game to hold for ~3 turns of no connection before dropping your opponent and ending the match.

Similarly and even more important for a 2v2 or 3v3, I'd expect if one of your teammates drops, that they could reconnect to the client within a certain amount of time and automatically rejoin the game they had in progress without disrupting it for everyone else (even if they missed a round and made everyone sit there for a minute while nothing happened).

I suppose since the alpha is out, people probably know how the client handles this in Hex, hopefully it's a little better.

 

[JustProgress]

Anyone have any theories about what the big surprise announcement is going to be? I get the impression that it's going to be something that will generate a lot of mixed reactions. Just some guesses but,

・ Hex coming to some new platform (consoles?) / medium (physical)
・ Introduction of a new product (comic books, animated short)
・ Beta for all backers
・ Beta access temporarily blocked for all backers while they implement something new
・ Merger with another company, perhaps a well-known publisher
・ A tentative release date for PvE or open beta, the catch being it's next year

or something along those lines. Cory saying that it's important everyone realize that there are things that they just don't know, things only that Crypto has all the information for... makes me think his announcement is going to anger a few people.

Watchu all think?

I'd say merger. But that is really weird considering the Kickstarter and all the money they got. But still seems like the only thing that would elicit "what does it all mean" questions.

 

[Nirolak]

The lack of a grace period for disconnects in a monetary format (Arena) is a bunch of BS though. My wifi router drops my connection for like 3 seconds every once in a while, which is an automatic loss.

I hope to got Hex has grace periods...

I suspect that's part of the beta status as opposed to a final implementation.

 

[Ryuukan]

I would say publisher/merger/etc too

 

[Smiley90]

I haven't experienced that myself, but yes, Hearthstone still has a lot of flaws outside the UI. I wouldn't associate the connection policies with the UI though.

I would hope they fix it before release, but in general what I'd like to see is if turns are 1 minute, the game to hold for ~3 turns of no connection before dropping your opponent and ending the match.

Similarly and even more important for a 2v2 or 3v3, I'd expect if one of your teammates drops, that they could reconnect to the client within a certain amount of time and automatically rejoin the game they had in progress without disrupting it for everyone else (even if they missed a round and made everyone sit there for a minute while nothing happened).

I suppose since the alpha is out, people probably know how the client handles this in Hex, hopefully it's a little better.

I suspect that's part of the beta status as opposed to a final implementation.

I hope so, BUT since there are no more wipes, the money is lost. Which is bad, beta or not beta. If you allow non-refundable monetary features, you better make sure those work forst though.

I have to agree though, the UI is al kinds of awesome, and rhe game looks absolutely beautiful. The intractability of the gameboard itself is awesome.

 

[Ryuukan]

I hope so, BUT since there are no more wipes, the money is lost. Which is bad, beta or not beta. If you allow non-refundable monetary features, you better make sure those work forst though.

I have to agree though, the UI is al kinds of awesome, and rhe game looks absolutely beautiful. The intractability of the gameboard itself is awesome.

It's not an easy thing to balance, you have to compromise between occasional legitimate network/pc issues and people who are trying to abuse the system somehow

 

[Smiley90]

It's not an easy thing to balance, you have to compromise between occasional legitimate network/pc issues and people who are trying to abuse the system somehow

It's fairly simple, honestly. Make it so that there's a 30s/1min grace period for reconnecting x times during a match before it counts as a loss. Give the guy that had to wait some extra dust to make up for the inconvenience or w/e. Simple and doesn't allow abuse, still.

Anyway this is the hex thread. I'm starting to think the announcement is something money-related too.

 

[Ryuukan]

It's fairly simple, honestly. Make it so that there's a 30s/1min grace period for reconnecting x times during a match before it counts as a loss. Give the guy that had to wait some extra dust to make up for the inconvenience or w/e. Simple and doesn't allow abuse, still.

Anyway this is the hex thread. I'm starting to think the announcement is something money-related too.

That sounds extremely convoluted and not at all worth the effort to implement. That certainly won't work for an 8-man draft.

Also, 1 min is not enough for the average user who has a crash/freeze and needs to reboot and start the client.

Point being, it's not "fairly simple".

 

[Minsc]

That sounds extremely convoluted and not at all worth the effort to implement. That certainly won't work for an 8-man draft.

Also, 1 min is not enough for the average user who has a crash/freeze and needs to reboot and start the client.

Point being, it's not "fairly simple".

Best way is to simply have the game go on without the player and when their issue is fixed the client automatically reconnects them to the game in progress. If their turns time out with no actions, so be it. This is what SolForge does, and it's great, except there's no turn timers, so that sucks, since they use a 20-min game clock. But otherwise, I think many turn-based multiplayer games use this kind of method, where the clock keeps going while you're disconnected and you can reconnect whenever you can.

 

[Shrennin]

As far as grace periods, I know the game has them but I forgot the time limit of them. It's definitely not going to be a disconnect so instant lose type of deal.

 

[ChrisatShinyLoot]

Out of the people really excited for and following this how many are in it for PvP and how many for PvE? My first read about this game had me excited, but it's tough to stomach not gaining anything for your deck from PvP since that's the main mode I was interested in playing.

 

[Minsc]

Out of the people really excited for and following this how many are in it for PvP and how many for PvE? My first read about this game had me excited, but it's tough to stomach not gaining anything for your deck from PvP since that's the main mode I was interested in playing.

I guess technically you gain cards you can sell for silver, as well as gaining silver directly, which you can then use to buy PvP cards with (presumably the exact ones you need).

As far as grace periods, I know the game has them but I forgot the time limit of them. It's definitely not going to be a disconnect so instant lose type of deal.

It's a much bigger issue for Hex too, when you start doing 2v2 and higher games (Perhaps even 4v1 Raiding or whatever), since those games may take upwards of an hour each.

 

[Izayoi]

Out of the people really excited for and following this how many are in it for PvP and how many for PvE? My first read about this game had me excited, but it's tough to stomach not gaining anything for your deck from PvP since that's the main mode I was interested in playing.

You can win boosters by playing organized PvP. Granted, you've got to put money in to get it back out, so keep that in mind.

 

[Shrennin]

It's a much bigger issue for Hex too, when you start doing 2v2 and higher games (Perhaps even 4v1 Raiding or whatever), since those games may take upwards of an hour each.

Yep, which is why 2v2 right now is still being worked on internally because CZE wants to make sure the games feel fast.

As far as the raiding goes, there's really no difference between other MMOs where players could disconnect during a raid and the group is essentially guaranteed a loss than this where they may have to wait for a grace period against the raid boss if one person on their team disconnects - the AI doesn't care how long players take and the group would still have the ability to make the call on whether or not to drop the raid if they didn't want to wait for the grace period to finish.

 

[mitheor]

http://hextcg.com/big-news-for-hex/

We've got big news for HEX: group 2 alpha invites are going out all day today, we've added some big names to our staff, and we have new partners to make HEX go global!

 

[Smiley90]

http://hextcg.com/big-news-for-hex/

OOOOOH SNAP!

... King Tier still waiting, but that's cool.

"All Raid Leaders, Guild Masters, Pro Players, Dungeon Crawlers, and Collectors will join the alpha. If all goes well, we hope to get on a regular and expedited runway to inviting everyone into the game"

 

[Shrennin]

Awesome news all around. Awesome!

 

[Ryuukan]

http://hextcg.com/big-news-for-hex/

!!!!!!!!!!!!! no email yet

 

[Shrennin]

!!!!!!!!!!!!! no email yet

The invites are being sent throughout the day today according to the update. As long as you're in the $250 tier, you definitely should get it sometime today.

 

[JustProgress]

Cool, congrats Wave 2. Hopefully not that long for Kings, but it'll be nice to see new people on the game.

 

[Smiley90]

Cool, congrats Wave 2. Hopefully not that long for Kings, but it'll be nice to see new people on the game.

I'd guess the time between Waves 2&3 will be bigger than between waves 1&2, due to the much larger number of people. I'm thinking mid/late-November at this point.

 

[JustProgress]

I'd guess the time between Waves 2&3 will be bigger than between waves 1&2, due to the much larger number of people. I'm thinking mid/late-November at this point.

Haha me too, but can't help but be optimistic. At least PS4 is right around the corner!

 

[Smiley90]

Haha me too, but can't help but be optimistic. At least PS4 is right around the corner!

More like "at least I finally got into the Hearthstone beta". That'll keep me busy for a while. That and Pokemon. And GTA V...

 

[Ryuukan]

Haha me too, but can't help but be optimistic. At least PS4 is right around the corner!

Yeah, think of all the great card games you can play on that ( ≖‿&#8790

 

[Doikor]

Hmmh did anyone understand the server split thing? Can i as a european play with my US friends?

 

[Draxal]

so phoenix wright vs alpha invite today ... goddamn.

 

[Luigi87]

Woo! Looking forward to my invite!

I am so screwed as I'm so unfamiliar with card games, but want to learn, lol


Also, holy crap at the publishing partnerships.

 

[Minsc]

Hmmh did anyone understand the server split thing? Can i as a european play with my US friends?

It sounds like you can play against people from other regions (in just the global tournaments?), but trading and anything you obtain in your game can only move acroos your specific region? So if you had a friend outside the US/Europe you couldn't trade items to them. See the quote from the article here:

Outside of these tournament servers, each walled garden will be a separate reality. They will each have their own economy, in-game items and accounts. All in-game elements are non-transferable between these regional servers.

 

[Ryuukan]

I need to decide on a keep name tonight (._. )

 

[JustProgress]

Yeah, think of all the great card games you can play on that ( ≖‿&#8790

I have Hearthstone for that.

Spoiler

Right? ;(

 

[Luigi87]

I would like to believe that we live in a world where HEX and Hearthstone can co-exist due to being fundamentally different.

Spoiler

and making us all poor in the process

Now for an actual question: Umm -- anyone have any tips for a total beginner for this kind of card game so I'm not entirely overwhelmed later?

 

[Ryuukan]

I'm enjoying hearthstone a lot, but I get the feeling I will use up its fun within another week or so. More friends getting in has helped that.

I've played multiple CCGs before so I'm sure they can co-exist peacefully

Now for an actual question: Umm -- anyone have any tips for a total beginner for this kind of card game so I'm not entirely overwhelmed later?

Look at the spoiler list on hextcg.com and let the cards speak to you