Support NeoGAF

[KdylanR92]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

I know every internet Atheist likes think people who follow religion are living inside the fucking Matrix or something but if that really is the case I gotta say it's not to bad in here...

 

[ElTorro]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp who knows what happens.

I am baffled by how convincing Pascal's Wager is to so many people.

I like this discussion of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBCDGohZT70

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I am baffled by how convincing Pascal's Wager is to so many people.

Sort of like I mentioned in my post, it makes me think of people who think they can save themselves by performing some kind of empty spell or ritual, there's no spiritual substance to it, you're just adopting some half-baked game theory.

 

[MrCunningham]

I can have my cake and eat it too. Thanks, Pope.

 

[Monocle]

Heaven would basically be hell if I had to spend eternity with all the insufferable twats who are supposedly going there. Heathens are much, much better company.

Also: why would I care that I could be allowed into heaven when the Judeo-Christian heaven quite obviously doesn't exist?

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

Yeah, because the wisest being in the universe would definitely fall for that hucksterism and give bet-hedgers the exact same reward as sincere believers who lived pious lives. Pathetic.

Good luck faking a sincerely held belief. Telling someone to believe in god because it's a safe bet is like telling a gay person to become straight because it makes life easier. It just doesn't work that way. And if even if it did, you'd be a coward for taking the easy way out. Maybe that reveals something about how some religious people view the characters of unbelievers.

"Haha wow, that sounds like a good deal. Always gotta look out for number one! I have no morals, I just wanna get ahead."

 

[Lothar]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

I know every internet Atheist likes think people who follow religion are living inside the fucking Matrix or something but if that really is the case I gotta say it's not to bad in here...

You can't actually choose to believe. It's not a button you can switch on or off. I wish I could believe. I also would stay in the Matrix if I had the option.

To me, it's the same as saying believe in Santa and maybe you'll get presents. That makes no sense. You can't do that. Even if it would be a good deal, it's not possible.

 

[Zeuanimals]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

I know every internet Atheist likes think people who follow religion are living inside the fucking Matrix or something but if that really is the case I gotta say it's not to bad in here...

Well, that's not all you're supposed to do to go to heaven. You'd have to devote a significant amount of your life to worshiping god and you'd have to conform to the ideas of morality and the general do's and do nots that are pushed in the bible. That's not to mention the fact that the appealing thought of heaven and god allowing you to go there tells you absolutely nothing about which god you're supposed to worship to go there. There's 5000 gods being worshiped in the world and thousands more different ways to interpret their words. It's possible that none of those gods are the right ones if there even is a god out there.

So you could spend your life worshiping and living your life defined by a book to have none of it be true or you can not live your life by a book and die without having devoted any time to something that's not real, meaning you could spend that time elsewhere.

And as others have said, god would know if you "believed" simply because you preferred those odds. And that's not likely belief you'd be having if it's over a wager.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

You can't actually choose to believe. It's not a button you can switch on or off. I wish I could believe. I also would stay in the Matrix if I had the option.

To me, it's the same as saying believe in Santa and maybe you'll get presents. That makes no sense. You can't do that. Even if it would be a good deal, it's not possible.

The standard advice if someone wishes they could believe is usually to act as if you did believe for a while (pray, etc), and eventually you might feel a 'presence' or not. I think that's actually pretty likely, whatever you might call 'spiritual experience' is one of the cornerstones of spirituality or religiosity, generally people emphasize the importance of a personal relationship with God, which is from what I understand more of an 'experience' than an ideological viewpoint. And we basically have God and the Devil in our heads already (our right amygdala is associated with fear, while our left is associated with bliss and feelings of safety), prayer is probably at least partly a way of wiring our brains to get more bliss from our limbic structures, etc, it makes sense that you could develop the ability to feel a benevolent presence simply through practice. Then maybe with those sorts of experiences, the Christian doctrines would make more sense? I'm a Buddhist so I already feel set as far as my spirituality is concerned, but I think I can see the argument.

 

[Aristion]

This was already laid out during Vatican II in the 1960s. This isn't news?

 

[YuShtink]

Thanks for the gesture I guess. But that still doesn't make any of it real. And it still doesn't change the fact that what is apparently the "Word of God" in your Holy Book completely contradicts whatever new-age hippy christian garbage you want to try to twist and spin it into. Just stop with the games, stop with the semantics, and accept fucking reality for what it is - NOT what was written 2000+ years ago by people who didn't know what a planet was, what evolution was, what cellular biology was, the list of simple natural phenomenon that were COMPLETELY misunderstood goes on and on. Just fucking give it up already. They were wrong, and it's ok. We may still be waaaayyy off. They had no reason to believe otherwise. Just admit it. Stop patronizing the people that DON'T live with their head in the sand.

Sorry for the rant. I actually like this new Pope a lot. Seems like a great guy. But the problem with completely changing the message and rules of your religion is that it kinda highlights the fact that it's all man-made bullshit to begin with.

 

[SkeptiMism]

To be fair, his view (I'm aware that the statement is old and that he's not saying atheists simply get salvation just like that) is still a lot more progressive than most Christians' view about it, at least by my experience.

I think majority of Christians haven't really given any thought to the idea if it's right that you get salvation only by believing in God and Jesus. Like, if you actually believe that (without the caveat that the Pope is talking about here or another possible caveat), I don't think it paints a very nice picture of you.

What kind of a creature would that be that would separate a mother from her most loved son, only because of the son not believing what her mother does? Or a couple, both loving each other as deeply as possible, but one not believing in God and one being a believer. What kind of a person would you be if you believed and worshiped such a being? I really don't think it paints a very flattering image of your God nor anyone believing that.

But yes, there are caveats like what the Pope is talking about. Like, it doesn't matter if you're an atheist in life as long as as accept God when you go to Him after you die here. And that's only one explanation to the problem.

Mind you, I'm still not interested. Like, if God were actually good and perfectly loving, then sure, but I can't see that being true even if God were to exist, which I practically know isn't true anyway - and I say 'know' not in the sense 100% surely as obviously it's theoretically possible, but in the sense that I strongly don't believe there is any divine being and even in the case there was, the probability of there being only one true god is, no offense to anyone, laughable to me on a personal level (and no, that doesn't mean I laugh at anyone for believing that). But still, if God were real and omnipotent and actually loving still, He would see my thoughts and questions and would see that they are genuine and I can't do anything about it and that they don't come from some silly idea of rejecting Him. So whatever.

Thank you ElTorro for taking your time to defend against the stupid fedora memes. Like sure, there are some (honestly, pretty rare) cases in which they can be understandable, but the way people use it most of the time is just obnoxious.

 

[FoxSpirit]

A very old statement (from 2013) that was misinterpreted by people without theological knowledge. Here's the thread from 2013 based on the exact same misleading article:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=676057

Come on, drive by posting? That's a sin right there.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

People have been leaving the Catholic church in droves for years. You can practically smell their desperation.

 

[FoxSpirit]

People have been leaving the Catholic church in droves for years. You can practically smell their desperation.

So they elected a pope who would not say the Protestant church is not a real church
Because from Papa Ratzi's view, America is full of heathens. Well, he also had eye rings like Palpatine.

 

[Chuckie]

People have been leaving the Catholic church in droves for years. You can practically smell their desperation.

I think the Catholic church is actually growing thanks to Africa and China.
Hard to say for sure though because the sources on Google could be biased.

 

[The Lamp]

This pope is hilarious. Literally contradicting the gospel and the Bible. The Bible zeroes in on this issue several times, salvation without faith is impossible. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, repeated ad nauseum in the scriptures. If Jesus wasn't needed, then his arrival on earth was pointless and so was the construction of the very institution that this pope leads, making the entire doctrine of the religion moot.

I'm confused because I think he said this year's ago. I'm still confused over the original context of what he was saying. "If you go to him," doesn't that blatantly contradict the behavior of an atheist? An atheist cannot go to a god they don't acknowledge.

If he is indeed saying atheists can reach salvation, then he's a kind person, but a doctrinally unfit spiritual leader. It's fine, Catholics do whatever they want anyway and have been doing so for thousands of years.

 

[Ray Wonder]

This Pope is cool with me.

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

If i were in God's shoes, I'd accept honest believers and atheists. but interested believers who decide to believe just in case? I'd kick you away for being dishonest.

 

[Pollux]

The Media has loved to try and paint Francis as some Revolutionary trying to shake the church to its foundation. Morons take the media at face value. Francis follows almost step for step the ideology of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Francis has the charisma like John Paul II. Benedict was a Book nerd Theologian who lacked Charisma.

Exactly. This statement is nothin new. And nothing Francis is saying was any different than things Benedict XVI said on many issues. He just says them in better sound bites.

 

[Bulzeeb]

Then what the heck is church even for?

around here, you usually go to church to enrich your way of life in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and the Bible in order get closer to God, also to pay respects, give thanks or ask for something to a superior being.

 

[The Boat]

How's the Internet connection in heaven?

 

[Bulzeeb]

How's the Internet connection in heaven?

Godlike

 

[BajiBoxer]

This pope is hilarious. Literally contradicting the gospel and the Bible. The Bible zeroes in on this issue several times, salvation without faith is impossible. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, repeated ad nauseum in the scriptures. If Jesus wasn't needed, then his arrival on earth was pointless and so was the construction of the very institution that this pope leads, making the entire doctrine of the religion moot.

I'm confused because I think he said this year's ago. I'm still confused over the original context of what he was saying. "If you go to him," doesn't that blatantly contradict the behavior of an atheist? An atheist cannot go to a god they don't acknowledge.

If he is indeed saying atheists can reach salvation, then he's a kind person, but a doctrinal dumbfuck spiritual leader. It's fine, Catholics do whatever they want anyway and have been doing so for thousands of years.

A lot of that book is nonsensical and full of contradiction. Kind of opens the religion up to all kinds of crazy beliefs. People spend lifetimes trying to force it all to work together.

 

[The Lamp]

A lot of that book is nonsensical and full of contradiction. Kind of opens the religion up to all kinds of crazy beliefs. People spend lifetimes trying to force it all to work together.

Disagree, but I have friends who actually study Old and New Testament manuscripts for their PhDs in seminary, so I'm not really interested in the Pope's idea of reconciling ancient texts or anyone else's opinion compared to the scholarly resources I already have on those questions.

Regardless, if the pope negates what I mentioned in my post, you literally remove the foundation of the entire Christian religion, so it's a ridiculous idea anyway. The entire point of the book is that you cannot know God without knowing Jesus. Saying you don't need Jesus to know the Christian God is like saying you can be a scientist without knowing how to add numbers or make observations. If you remove that, nothing else is left.

 

[LostCaress]

Anyone that truly believes in hell (well the version where it's eternal pain and punishment) is a sociopath.

 

[| Praxis |]

Godlike

Just keep the priests away from it. You know... Just in case.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I like this pope - he's cool

 

[Hoje0308]

But I've already committed the one unforgivable sin countless times. (Is god so merciful that he can forgive what he cannot forgive? Theology is complicated!)

GAF, am I fucked?

Imaginary sky gods can't be blasphemed though.

Anyone that truly believes in hell (well the version where it's eternal pain and punishment) is a sociopath.

While I think any deity that threatens eternal torture for even the most grievous of infractions is surely a heartless monster, I also think most theists are good people that accept these things as normal since they were taught them by the people they trust most. I mean, they learned about religion at a time in which it was acceptable to think that a fat man came down your chimney once a year to eat cookies and bring presents.

 

[FunkyDealer]

What he should be saying is "Heaven has free wifi". Place would get crowded real fast.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

This pope is hilarious. Literally contradicting the gospel and the Bible. The Bible zeroes in on this issue several times, salvation without faith is impossible. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, repeated ad nauseum in the scriptures. If Jesus wasn't needed, then his arrival on earth was pointless and so was the construction of the very institution that this pope leads, making the entire doctrine of the religion moot.

I'm confused because I think he said this year's ago. I'm still confused over the original context of what he was saying. "If you go to him," doesn't that blatantly contradict the behavior of an atheist? An atheist cannot go to a god they don't acknowledge.

If he is indeed saying atheists can reach salvation, then he's a kind person, but a doctrinally unfit spiritual leader. It's fine, Catholics do whatever they want anyway and have been doing so for thousands of years.

Oh so faith in Jesus is like a magical system hack for some reason and you need to know the right arbitrary password to get through.

 

[Woody Invincible]

I always thought believing in God was a pretty good deal, You believe, and god is real you get to go to heaven, you believe and god isn't real, welp i guess i'll be eating crow in whatever afterlife there is.

I like those odds.

I know every internet Atheist likes think people who follow religion are living inside the fucking Matrix or something but if that really is the case I gotta say it's not to bad in here...

Good ole Pascal's Wager...

I can't believe anybody would serve a diety who would eternally punish and torture, but what do I know.

 

[The Lamp]

Oh so faith in Jesus is like a magical system hack for some reason and you need to know the right arbitrary password to get through.

Basically.

 

[kurisu_1974]

to me it's the sort of atheist that delights in just sitting on believers simply for believing.

people should be treated with respect unless they're just complete fucking assholes. it's much more productive to attack bad ideas and intellectual dishonesty. which is there is plenty of from both theists and atheists.

What if my respect is earned by being a rational human being?

 

[LostCaress]

Imaginary sky gods can't be blasphemed though.



While I think any deity that threatens eternal torture for even the most grievous of infractions is surely a heartless monster, I also think most theists are good people that accept these things as normal since they were taught them by the people they trust most. I mean, they learned about religion at a time in which it was acceptable to think that a fat man came down your chimney once a year to eat cookies and bring presents.

Oh sure, religious people are fine by me. My girlfriend who is catholic and went to a school run by nuns vaguely believes in hell and I'm ok with it. But if I push the subject, if I really insist on whether she actually believes there's a place where people suffer forever, are tortured, have no possibility of salvation, she obviously says she doesn't believe in such a place. I think even a pope said that hell was merely the absence of God (which is still kinda petty). But people who would be ok with such a place are sociopaths.

 

[daniels]

Soo about that pascals wager

 

[BajiBoxer]

Disagree, but I have friends who actually study Old and New Testament manuscripts for their PhDs in seminary, so I'm not really interested in the Pope's idea of reconciling ancient texts or anyone else's opinion compared to the scholarly resources I already have on those questions.

Regardless, if the pope negates what I mentioned in my post, you literally remove the foundation of the entire Christian religion, so it's a ridiculous idea anyway. The entire point of the book is that you cannot know God without knowing Jesus. Saying you don't need Jesus to know the Christian God is like saying you can be a scientist without knowing how to add numbers or make observations. If you remove that, nothing else is left.

Oh, I agree about the Jesus part. The bible is pretty clear in places that you need to believe in this God or Jesus to reach heaven. Of course there are many ridiculous assumptions that have to be made to think the bible has any real divine authority to begin with rather than view it as another collection of mythology. The mental gymnastics that have to be made to make it all work together is quite extensive.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Oh so faith in Jesus is like a magical system hack for some reason and you need to know the right arbitrary password to get through.

Pretty much how I was taught in church. There was some confusion though as to whether someone like me would get in. I was a true believer who pledged my soul to Jesus but discarded my faith. Some thought once you were in you were in. That a true believer could have doubt and identify as agnostic or atheist later on, but would always be a Christian deep down. It was just Satan or "The Enemy" clouding your judgement or whatever. Others believed otherwise. I'm not clear where the line is drawn for most. There are also true believers who struggle mightily with their vices (real or otherwise) and this can have a devastating psychological effect too.

I think a problem with the Pope's statement is also that "conscience" is not some kind of God driven universal moral compass always pointing true north. It's an abstract concept likely influenced by many inputs leading many of us in different directions. Some people even have a conscience that seems flat out broken. The Pope's statement, while sounding nice to most of us, really doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[televator]

I don't even understand what an "internet atheist" as an insult means anymore. It's like.... If someone is not impressed or flattered that the pope says these things, they're an internet atheist, and the bad kind?

It's a throwaway term to deflect argument or belittle opinion off hand. I liken it to feminazi or SJW in terms of how it's used.

 

[NarrowPath]

http://youtu.be/7GP3AwOj9Aw

A segment from Larry King with people representing evangelical Christianity, Catholic, Jewish, Islam, Atheist, and (Spiritualist?) in order of appearance as best I could tell from a quick look. Edit: it was a quick look because I watched the full video some time ago.

Full disclosure, I am an evangelical Christian.

 

[ElTorro]

It's a throwaway term to deflect argument or belittle opinion off hand. I liken it to feminazi or SJW in terms of how it's used.

It's the successor to "militant atheist", or "new atheist" (meant as atheist, who has no overview over the historical discussion of theism against atheism and just jerks off on books by Dawkins et. al.). Frankly, being a critical of religion and supernatural claims, as well as making it a subject of understandable mockery, is just not a position that can be accepted by many believers as intellectually and emotionally honest and valid. Despite the fact that they themselves are perfectly willing to mock ancient religions, who once where subscribed to as sincerely as contemporary religions, as myth. I respect those believers who understand their critics' and mocker's position.

 

[Scrooged]

Oh so faith in Jesus is like a magical system hack for some reason and you need to know the right arbitrary password to get through.

Pretty much. The bible explicitly says that salvation is not given through works alone. You gotta believe in Jesus for reals.

But it gets better. According to a lot of Protestant denominations, the only way to fully understand the word of god and understand its deeper meanings is to read the bible and let the Holy Spirit interpret it for you. So basically, in order to understand the bible you first have to be a True Christian™. The circular logic knows no bounds. This is in contrast to Catholicism, which has historically highly discouraged believers to go out of their way and try to understand the bible. That's what Priests and the Pope are for. To distribute the will of god from a position of authority.

 

[Soriku]

I'm 99% atheist, but I find myself praying just in case in certain situations, so If I'm wrong, its nice to know I still have a in. Eternal Hell would suck.

You could be praying to the wrong god brah. Enjoy retribution for denying Lord Jizzinthepussy.

You don't really have an in by doing this and Pascal's wager doesn't mean much.

Just saying.

Spoiler

Also eternal hell is a stupid idea so I really wouldn't fret much.